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01-14-2013, 08:33 PM
  #351
Gallatin
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Originally Posted by ObsessedCreative View Post
Proposal I just put up on the rumors & trade boards:

San Jose: Simon Després, Tyler Kennedy, Ben Lovejoy, 2nd round pick

Pittsburgh: Ryane Clowe, Douglas Murray, 3rd round pick

Thoughts???
I don't really follow West Coast Hockey and I have been hearing Murray and Clowe come up in trade ideas quite a bit. Can someone do a scouting report for me on them? I assume they are tough and physical players, but don't really know....

TIA

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01-14-2013, 08:44 PM
  #352
Honour Over Glory
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Originally Posted by Gallatin View Post
I don't really follow West Coast Hockey and I have been hearing Murray and Clowe come up in trade ideas quite a bit. Can someone do a scouting report for me on them? I assume they are tough and physical players, but don't really know....

TIA
Neither are the best of skaters, if you are annoyed with the swiftness of Jeffrey and Tangradi, you won't like Clowe.

I don't see the top 6 as that big of a problem anymore, Bennett is getting a long look and Tangradi could be ready, never know unless you try. If in 10 games it's painfully obvious they need help up there, then ok, but that trade seems desperate. Shero doesn't make desperate moves like that by throwing away a prospect he's high on.

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01-14-2013, 08:52 PM
  #353
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Originally Posted by Honour Over Glory View Post
Neither are the best of skaters, if you are annoyed with the swiftness of Jeffrey and Tangradi, you won't like Clowe.

I don't see the top 6 as that big of a problem anymore, Bennett is getting a long look and Tangradi could be ready, never know unless you try. If in 10 games it's painfully obvious they need help up there, then ok, but that trade seems desperate. Shero doesn't make desperate moves like that by throwing away a prospect he's high on.
Tangradi and Jeffrey have significantly improved their skating in the last 2 years. In fact, once he gets a few strides in, Tangradi has the look of a Kevin Stevens type large physical guy flying down the left wing. Now if only he could develop that wrist shot and net presence....

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01-14-2013, 08:56 PM
  #354
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gallatin View Post
I don't really follow West Coast Hockey and I have been hearing Murray and Clowe come up in trade ideas quite a bit. Can someone do a scouting report for me on them? I assume they are tough and physical players, but don't really know....

TIA

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01-14-2013, 08:57 PM
  #355
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This is a move you make next off season, not before this season. If needed I mean. If the team didn't have Beau doing well in the AHL and Tangradi playing better, then maybe, but yeah, I'm a hell no for that trade proposal.


Hell to the no.

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01-14-2013, 08:58 PM
  #356
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Originally Posted by MonsterSurge View Post
Clowe couldn't beat up a 20yr old. Interesting. Clifford is 6'1" and 200lbs, Clowe is 6'2" and 225lbs...Also, Murray & Clowe are UFA's this summer. Go after them, then. They aren't some young guys either, Clowe is 30 and Murray is 33. Seems like the Pens are giving up guys that could give them more now and in the future for guys that could just walk after this year.

The team is strong enough I think, if Shero thinks they need to make a move, he will. I doubt he'd give up Despres in that process.

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01-14-2013, 08:59 PM
  #357
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Originally Posted by M0NTY26 View Post
Why are so many people on Adams case? This is something I've never understood. He's a fourth line plugger thats good at faceoffs and killing penalties. He also battles hard as hell each time he's on the ice. Some of you act like he should be producing 20/20 each season.
People are on his case because:

1) He provides nothing other than PKing ability. Has never been a positive player...ie contributed to helping the team at 5v5. Pens do bury the 4th line with a lot of zone starts in the D zone, so keep that in mind. Pens are "eating" his negative 5v5 play to "benefit" from his 4v5.

2) His 4v5 results aren't the best on the Pens. He has consistently been the 4th or 3rd best of our starting PKers in goals against average / 60min SH ice time. I would expect to see him consistently at #1 or #2. Pens usually have 2-3 forwards better than him at PKing. Cooke, Staal, and Dupeprs (in that order) are all usually better than him in GAA/60min of 4v5 time over the past 3 years. This passes my "sniff test" because all 3 of those players are better overall than Craig Adams. Why wouldn't they be better in 4v5 results too?

3) Playing the point on the PK is an easily replaceable skill that can be filled by just about any depth forward. Even if they (a replacement) aren't elite at it, the results are not that different over a course of a season. We are talking about 1/8th of your PKing squad. Even if Adams was 20% better than his replacement, you are then dividing that difference by 8 to get your end, team result. You end up with a small "prize" to be won by just focusing on PK results. I don't even know if the difference even adds up to a single goal against from Adams to his "replacement". His replacement is probably Vitale..who is pretty good on PK and much better on faceoffs.

4) Adams has no other marketable skills...not good at faceoffs (43% is bad), terrible fighter (not like it really means anything anyways), not good at drawing penalties.

He does throw a lot of hits and you can look at it either way. Good - punishing opponents and creating turnovers. Bad - means Adams doesn't have the puck and could potentially be taking himself out of the play. Getting a ton of hits is neither good or bad to me. It's like blocked shots. Great, you blocked a shot....why was the puck in your zone to begin with?

5) He's 35. Adams is not getting any better or possess any potential to develop into anything else. This is it. He is holding young guys back who could be benefiting from his icetime.

Heres another opinion:
http://www.pensburgh.com/2012/5/29/3...ew-craig-adams

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01-14-2013, 09:06 PM
  #358
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Originally Posted by Honour Over Glory View Post
Clowe couldn't beat up a 20yr old. Interesting. Clifford is 6'1" and 200lbs, Clowe is 6'2" and 225lbs...Also, Murray & Clowe are UFA's this summer. Go after them, then. They aren't some young guys either, Clowe is 30 and Murray is 33. Seems like the Pens are giving up guys that could give them more now and in the future for guys that could just walk after this year.

The team is strong enough I think, if Shero thinks they need to make a move, he will. I doubt he'd give up Despres in that process.
Uh...Clowe CLEARLY won that fight.


Engelland is about 6'2 and 200lbs, by the way.

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01-14-2013, 09:09 PM
  #359
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Originally Posted by alcanalz View Post
Hickey's got nothing outside of draft pedigree, I'll be surprised if he gets a chance.

Yeah, and he was captain and performed very well at the WJC's. That's actually a big deal. I'm not saying WE should claim him, but that's no small accomplishment. I'll be surprised if someone doesn't claim him.


Quote:
Originally Posted by JTG View Post
Tangradi on Geno and Neal's line today
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Originally Posted by Shady Machine View Post
It's frustrating to me that Jeffrey has no chance at cracking the top 12. Why is Adam's spot always cemented in place?

He absolutely will have chances. They could swap them back and forth between games, and Jeffrey will get in before Adams on a lot of nights, and is probably the #2 guy they will use after ET if the Tangradi experiment on the 2nd line doesn't work. Also...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Antaris View Post
2nd pp unit : Nisky, Martin on points, Kennedy Sutter and Dupuis up front.

NO. Jeffrey is our most talented forward option to work the half-wall on the PP for the 2nd unit (provided Neal/Sid/Geno all play 1st unit, as expected). Jeffrey has performed well in that spot in juniors and the AHL, and has even worked the point, a la Ron Francis. He's definitely the guy to QB the 2nd PP unit, whether that's from the point, side-wall, or rover between those two positions.

Kennedy or Sutter on RW, Sutter or Tangradi in front of net; Jeffrey on LW

Niskanen and Martin (or Bortuzzo) (or Jeffrey) on point on 2nd unit.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MichiganWolverines View Post
Dallas has to be the softest team in the NHL, they needed more grit.

Dallas is clearly in a rebuild, and they're trying to do it without actually tanking and/or trading away ALL of their players. They have actually done a nice job in that regard. But yeah: they're not a playoff team as their built right now. But what do we know -- maybe they have another trade in the works.

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01-14-2013, 09:12 PM
  #360
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Originally Posted by MonsterSurge View Post
Uh...Clowe CLEARLY won that fight.


Engelland is about 6'2 and 200lbs, by the way.
Engo would put a 20yr old in his 2nd year in the NHL, on his rear. Clowe is supposed to be a powerforward that can throw his weight around. That fight isn't a clear win, it's a marginal win at best, if anything, you applaud Clifford for putting up a good show as a youngster against a 29yr old veteran.

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01-14-2013, 09:18 PM
  #361
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Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
Except Martin is better at puck possession, passing and skating. There's nothing worse than a turnover right after a powerplay. Its always nice to keep the other team pressed into their zone even after the powerplay ends.
I buy that evaluation of Martin vs Engelland. Martin is a superior possession player compared to Engelland. PP is more about getting good shots on net from the point though. Just like Martin is a better possession player than Gonchar does not make Martin a better PP point man than Gonchar. They are different skills. Engelland has just proven to be better at producing points and goals from the point than Martin.

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01-14-2013, 09:21 PM
  #362
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Martin has better vision with the puck, yeah you want to get the puck to the net, but you also want to make the PK worry that he might throw it to an open guy with a crisp pass and it ends up in the back of the net. Engo might get a shot off and it might go through in traffic but he won't be threading that needle or seeing an open man better than Paul would.

I really hope Martin can rebound, I remember him as a Devil and I still think he can get to that level, even better.

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01-14-2013, 09:23 PM
  #363
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Originally Posted by wgknestrick View Post
I buy that evaluation of Martin vs Engelland. Martin is a superior possession player compared to Engelland. PP is more about getting good shots on net from the point though. Just like Martin is a better possession player than Gonchar does not make Martin a better PP point man than Gonchar. They are different skills.
I agree with your point. But Gonchar is pretty much better than Martin at everything powerplay related.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wgknestrick View Post
Engelland has just proven to be better at producing points and goals from the point than Martin.
no he hasn't. He seriously has a career high 17 points which is 70% higher than his 2nd best season of 10 points. I'm not saying he can't produce. Saying he has proven to be a better producer than Martin is just false though. He produces at a higher rate in his limited role. That's the only conclusion we can make based on the stats we have. We have no idea what he would do if given more opportunity. That's my point. The stats can't just be prorated to more minutes without factoring in the other differences that come with more minutes. Maybe he can do it. I would be thrilled. But there is absolutely no proof that he can. None. The facts we have show that Paul Martin has never come close to being outproduced by Deryk Engelland. Those stats aren't proof the other way either; but its the best we have.

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01-14-2013, 09:29 PM
  #364
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Originally Posted by Honour Over Glory View Post
Engo would put a 20yr old in his 2nd year in the NHL, on his rear. Clowe is supposed to be a powerforward that can throw his weight around. That fight isn't a clear win, it's a marginal win at best, if anything, you applaud Clifford for putting up a good show as a youngster against a 29yr old veteran.
Engelland has heavyweight fighting skill. Kyle Clifford and Ryane Clowe are middleweights. Clowe could even be considered a light heavy.

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01-14-2013, 09:31 PM
  #365
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Originally Posted by Honour Over Glory View Post
Engo would put a 20yr old in his 2nd year in the NHL, on his rear. Clowe is supposed to be a powerforward that can throw his weight around. That fight isn't a clear win, it's a marginal win at best, if anything, you applaud Clifford for putting up a good show as a youngster against a 29yr old veteran.
I was at a Sharks/Pens game a year ago and Engo fought Clowe. Good fight and a super close one. Engelland had more shots in but Clowe can hold guys off with his power. Clowe isnt a heavy weight fighter but he can definitely throw em with most guys in the heat of the moment

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01-14-2013, 11:26 PM
  #366
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Originally Posted by Honour Over Glory View Post
Martin has better vision with the puck, yeah you want to get the puck to the net, but you also want to make the PK worry that he might throw it to an open guy with a crisp pass and it ends up in the back of the net. Engo might get a shot off and it might go through in traffic but he won't be threading that needle or seeing an open man better than Paul would.

I really hope Martin can rebound, I remember him as a Devil and I still think he can get to that level, even better.
I don't think I've ever seen Martin thread a needle. He's a pretty mediocre playmaker, and his predictable passing is part of what makes him an ineffective PP player.

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Why are so many people on Adams case? This is something I've never understood. He's a fourth line plugger thats good at faceoffs and killing penalties. He also battles hard as hell each time he's on the ice. Some of you act like he should be producing 20/20 each season.
Adams sucks at faceoffs, provides zero offense, and his PKing is in good part replaceable by other players coming up who are better in other aspects of the game (Jeffrey, Vitale, etc.).

Good trench worker for us for a couple years, but he's redundant now.

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01-14-2013, 11:32 PM
  #367
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Trading Philophy

I just want to say, rather than comment on any specific proposal (i.e. Clowe, Murray, Boyle, etc): I like what Dave Nonis said about trading young players (and I'm paraphrasing because I don't have the exact quote): "If I'm going to trade a young player, it will be for another young player [not a young one for an older one]".


I think, in general, this is a wise and accurate principle for us to follow when proposing trade ideas.

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01-14-2013, 11:36 PM
  #368
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmelm View Post
I just want to say, rather than comment on any specific proposal (i.e. Clowe, Murray, Boyle, etc): I like what Dave Nonis said about trading young players (and I'm paraphrasing because I don't have the exact quote): "If I'm going to trade a young player, it will be for another young player [not a young one for an older one]".


I think, in general, this is a wise and accurate principle for us to follow when proposing trade ideas.
That is true, but lacks substance when it comes to proven older NHL talent still in or around their primes.

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01-14-2013, 11:49 PM
  #369
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Originally Posted by Ugene Malkin View Post
That is true, but lacks substance when it comes to proven older NHL talent still in or around their primes.

Obviously. I thik it goes without saying that there are exceptions to rules, or ways to balance out a deal (i.e. when we gave up Whitney for Kunitz, ANA added in a good young prospect to help even that out).


But if we're talking about trading multiple young assets for multiple older assets, some of whom might be declining (i.e. Boyle) just doesn't make sense.

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01-15-2013, 12:02 AM
  #370
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Originally Posted by jmelm View Post
Obviously. I thik it goes without saying that there are exceptions to rules, or ways to balance out a deal (i.e. when we gave up Whitney for Kunitz, ANA added in a good young prospect to help even that out).


But if we're talking about trading multiple young assets for multiple older assets, some of whom might be declining (i.e. Boyle) just doesn't make sense.
I agree. You can only give up one young asset you really don't want to part with in any given deal unless that player is iconic.

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01-15-2013, 12:05 AM
  #371
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Originally Posted by Honour Over Glory View Post
Engo would put a 20yr old in his 2nd year in the NHL, on his rear. Clowe is supposed to be a powerforward that can throw his weight around. That fight isn't a clear win, it's a marginal win at best, if anything, you applaud Clifford for putting up a good show as a youngster against a 29yr old veteran.


Clowe can go with some tough dudes.

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Originally Posted by M0NTY26 View Post
Why are so many people on Adams case? This is something I've never understood. He's a fourth line plugger thats good at faceoffs and killing penalties. He also battles hard as hell each time he's on the ice. Some of you act like he should be producing 20/20 each season.
Actually, if he was good at faceoffs I'd have much less of an issue with him. The problem is he's pretty bad at faceoffs (especially for a "defensive center"), which means all he has going for him is his PK ability, which isn't that difficult to replace, given our roster.

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01-15-2013, 12:23 AM
  #372
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Living in Norcal, I would take Clowe in a heartbeat. Dude is grit and a gamer. He gives everything and Randy and Drew (the Errey and Stagy of SJ) call him a coach on the ice. Which is actually funny cuz during the lockout he was coaching the ECHL team that he co-owns.

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01-15-2013, 12:59 AM
  #373
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmelm View Post
I just want to say, rather than comment on any specific proposal (i.e. Clowe, Murray, Boyle, etc): I like what Dave Nonis said about trading young players (and I'm paraphrasing because I don't have the exact quote): "If I'm going to trade a young player, it will be for another young player [not a young one for an older one]".


I think, in general, this is a wise and accurate principle for us to follow when proposing trade ideas.
I'm all for that, I wouldn't trade a 20yr old with top 4 defense potential for a 30yr old that maybe has 3-4yrs left, maybe, because of the style he plays.

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01-15-2013, 01:03 AM
  #374
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Originally Posted by Ugene Malkin View Post
That is true, but lacks substance when it comes to proven older NHL talent still in or around their primes.
Clowe has only topped the 20+ goal mark twice in his career, if I am going to move a stud young defenseman, a 2nd rounder and a meh player (Lovejoy), it's going to be for a more consistent goal scorer. I mean as it stands, he has 1 more 20 goal season than Tyler Kennedy. TK is faster, younger, and cheaper and a better defensive player.

I'd rather take my chances with what this team has, than get 2 impending UFA's that might not stick around. Given this team's cap structure, Shero isn't going to pay them their worth either, these guys know that. They'll go to the highest bidder and it's not always a guarantee that players will take a little less to sign with the Pens long term, anymore, either.

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01-15-2013, 01:07 AM
  #375
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Originally Posted by torrencemd View Post
Living in Norcal, I would take Clowe in a heartbeat. Dude is grit and a gamer. He gives everything and Randy and Drew (the Errey and Stagy of SJ) call him a coach on the ice. Which is actually funny cuz during the lockout he was coaching the ECHL team that he co-owns.
Sharks are a contender also, unless they are getting a guy that helps them big time in their top 6 or is a stud bottom 6 guy that makes it ok to lose Clowe, why would they make that deal to begin with?

This is a move you make in the summer, if the Pens really want him, they'll trade the Sharks some late pick and a lesser prospect for his negotiating rights and lock him up. Doing it now, giving up assets and having the potential disaster of him leaving and show nothing for that trade after, is pointless. Yeah the team has a glut of stud young defensemen, but you don't just discard them for rentals.

This next summer, Shero has to lock up Malkin and Letang and for once, having some cap space might do the team some good, there are some pretty intriguing guys that are Free Agents next summer. Perry for one.

Want to throw away Despres for a rental or wait until the summer, use the cap space to get Perry to add TO the roster and still have Despres?

You never know.

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