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Old
01-14-2013, 07:40 PM
  #26
TSA0402
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tortorella View Post
McDonagh and Del Zotto did it over a full season though.
One good season or 50 good games, doesn't make a player consistent. I'd say they still both have something to prove.

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01-14-2013, 07:48 PM
  #27
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Rangers top4 Delly, Staal, Girardi, McDonagh are going to be logging 22+ minutes each. The remaining 16 minutes in the game will be played by the bottom pair of Eminger, Gilroy, Stralman, or Bickel. Which I'd be completely fine with any 2 of those playing 12-16 minutes a game. Stralman/Eminger is a good a bottom pair as any other team.

MDZ is the best OD the Rangers have had since Brian Leetch. No way they're dealing him.

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01-14-2013, 07:50 PM
  #28
CM Lundqvist
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Originally Posted by TSA0402 View Post
One good season or 50 good games, doesn't make a player consistent. I'd say they still both have something to prove.
Del Zotto did it as a rookie and again this year, both seasons on a team with an absolutely inept power play. The best power play he ever played with was when the Rangers had Kotalik at the point for the first month and a half of the 09-10 season blasting one-timers before teams keyed in on him.

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01-14-2013, 07:58 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by CM Lundqvist View Post
Del Zotto did it as a rookie and again this year, both seasons on a team with an absolutely inept power play. The best power play he ever played with was when the Rangers had Kotalik at the point for the first month and a half of the 09-10 season blasting one-timers before teams keyed in on him.
...and in between, he had 11 points in 47 games and spent time in the AHL. 0 even-strength goals.

We're not fools here. We've seen young players come in and play well early, then simply stagnate or regress. You should know too...we traded one of them to you to pick up Tyutin in the first place.

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Old
01-14-2013, 07:59 PM
  #30
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No thanks from the Rangers, much rather have MDZ

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Old
01-14-2013, 08:20 PM
  #31
CM Lundqvist
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Originally Posted by Mayor Bee View Post
...and in between, he had 11 points in 47 games and spent time in the AHL. 0 even-strength goals.

We're not fools here. We've seen young players come in and play well early, then simply stagnate or regress. You should know too...we traded one of them to you to pick up Tyutin in the first place.
Yeah, you're right, because those same players your speaking of put up 37 points as rookies, go down to the AHL and the following season finish 12th in Norris Voting as a 21 year old.

You're not fools, but I am? You think that attempt at a dig at Del Zotto is going to make me or anyone believe that those two are worth him? No way.

Del Zotto's upside (and proven production so far) BLOWS the other two away. Del Zotto has accomplished more in 3 seasons than Tyutin has in his entire career and Nikitin isn't even close to Del Zotto's level.

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01-14-2013, 08:23 PM
  #32
CM Lundqvist
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Also, you're using a half of an AHL season as the basis of your argument?

I have 2 NHL seasons and a bunch of writers who have just check-raised your bet all-in.

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01-14-2013, 08:33 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by CM Lundqvist View Post
Yeah, you're right, because those same players your speaking of put up 37 points as rookies, go down to the AHL and the following season finish 12th in Norris Voting as a 21 year old.

You're not fools, but I am? You think that attempt at a dig at Del Zotto is going to make me or anyone believe that those two are worth him? No way.

Del Zotto's upside (and proven production so far) BLOWS the other two away. Del Zotto has accomplished more in 3 seasons than Tyutin has in his entire career and Nikitin isn't even close to Del Zotto's level.
None of that is relevant.

It has not been established that Columbus is going to continue to make moves under the "rebuilding" umbrella. There's a lot of young talent, very little old talent, and the old talent is signed to short-term deals. Most of the young talent is not in their prime years.

Therefore, the more likely course is to keep the hands off and see what happens. To gut the current blueline, which includes two pairings that showed excellent chemistry (at a high level, I might add) under difficult circumstances last season, in order to pick up a different piece at the expense of one of those entire pairings, would fly in the face of this.

This has nothing to do with whether Del Zotto is currently a better player than either Tyutin or Nikitin. It has nothing to do with whether he may become a much better player. It has everything to do with whether a team that has a young core is going to decimate the entire blueline just as things are starting to come together.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CM Lundqvist View Post
Also, you're using a half of an AHL season as the basis of your argument?

I have 2 NHL seasons and a bunch of writers who have just check-raised your bet all-in.
No, I'm using 47 games in an NHL season (with 11 points, and 2 goals of which neither were at even strength) in addition to the fact that he was in the AHL at all in his second year.

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Old
01-14-2013, 08:42 PM
  #34
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No way would the Rangers take back Tyutin (who is terrible) and his ridiculous contract ($4.5 million through 2018!) considering the big money they are already spending and the raises that will be due McDonough, Stepan and others....

...now, the Islanders on the other hand have been desperate for veteran D (Hamhuis, Ehroff, Visnovsky, etc) so maybe a Tyutin package for one of their young guys would work. Wold love Okposo on the CBJ


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Old
01-14-2013, 08:48 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mayor Bee View Post

On the blueline:
Tyutin and Nikitin were an excellent pairing last season in all zones, and the blueline as a whole looks to be taking shape nicely.

Up front:.
From the CBJ perspective as well: Tyutin was terrible last year, he makes more than double what Del Zotto does. He adds very little offensively and is shaky in his own zone, and extremely turnover prone. Nikitn played his best at the end of the season when Tyutin was on IR.

What team were you watching?!

Compared to what the CBJ has had previously, the Tyutin/Nikitin pairing looked good....but compared to the rest of the NHL...

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Old
01-14-2013, 08:48 PM
  #36
CM Lundqvist
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Originally Posted by Mayor Bee View Post
None of that is relevant.
ALL of it is relevant. It's of your opinion as to whether Columbus would want to be adding a piece like MDZ or not. It's of your opinion as to what is relevant in this discussion apparently too.

Quote:
It has not been established that Columbus is going to continue to make moves under the "rebuilding" umbrella. There's a lot of young talent, very little old talent, and the old talent is signed to short-term deals. Most of the young talent is not in their prime years.
Because trading for a 21 year old top-notch offensive defenseman would be a rebuilding move? Since when?

Quote:
Therefore, the more likely course is to keep the hands off and see what happens. To gut the current blueline, which includes two pairings that showed excellent chemistry (at a high level, I might add) under difficult circumstances last season, in order to pick up a different piece at the expense of one of those entire pairings, would fly in the face of this.
Fair enough, but everything else you've said including your feeble attempts at jabs at Del Zotto has been terribly wrong. He had a sophomore slump and came back even stronger. Call it a funny feeling, if you will, but I THINK he's past that.

Quote:
This has nothing to do with whether Del Zotto is currently a better player than either Tyutin or Nikitin. It has nothing to do with whether he may become a much better player. It has everything to do with whether a team that has a young core is going to decimate the entire blueline just as things are starting to come together.
No, this has everything to do what you want to discuss and what you want to discuss only. Due to the fact that you really can't argue anything else about Del Zotto aside from bringing up his sophomore slump, you refuse to see the point in which trading for an asset like him wouldn't be a "rebuilding move" and it would defenitely help Columbus in the long run. In fact, there's a good chance that Del Zotto would become Columbus' best defenseman. Not only did he make major strides defensively last season, he continued to show the offensive prowess he has on a team who had a rather pedestrian power play.

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Old
01-14-2013, 09:00 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CM Lundqvist View Post

Because trading for a 21 year old top-notch offensive defenseman would be a rebuilding move? Since when?
Since when did Del Zotto become Erik Karlsson? Top notch means not scoring 11 points the previous year.

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01-14-2013, 09:01 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by IHeartZherdev View Post
From the CBJ perspective as well: Tyutin was terrible last year, he makes more than double what Del Zotto does. He adds very little offensively and is shaky in his own zone, and extremely turnover prone. Nikitn played his best at the end of the season when Tyutin was on IR.

What team were you watching?!

Compared to what the CBJ has had previously, the Tyutin/Nikitin pairing looked good....but compared to the rest of the NHL...
I could very well ask you the same question

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Old
01-14-2013, 09:09 PM
  #39
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I could very well ask you the same question
I think he/she might have been in comatose for a few years, that would actually make more sense. Just not sure how Nikitin got included.

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Old
01-14-2013, 09:10 PM
  #40
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I don't see Columbus jumping at this at all.

MDZ is solid, but not enough to get a complete 2nd pair of defenceman when he himself is one half of a 2nd pair himself.

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01-14-2013, 09:16 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by TSA0402 View Post
Since when did Del Zotto become Erik Karlsson? Top notch means not scoring 11 points the previous year.
In all fairness, MDZ has 37 and 41 point seasons.

And he's just 22 years old.

Not only that, he has been doing what you want to see from young defenceman and that is rounding out his game.

He was a defensive liability when putting up those 11 points you mention and he came back like a different player last season.

Still not enough to get Nikitn and Tyutin.

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Old
01-14-2013, 09:25 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
In all fairness, MDZ has 37 and 41 point seasons.

And he's just 22 years old.

Not only that, he has been doing what you want to see from young defenceman and that is rounding out his game.

He was a defensive liability when putting up those 11 points you mention and he came back like a different player last season.

Still not enough to get Nikitn and Tyutin.
Since when has HF ever been about fairness? Its either Del Zotto is a consistent 40+ point player at 22 and Nikitin is an unproven NHL player who was lucky, or Del Zotto is inconsistent, sucks defensively and Nikitin is on pace to be 50 point two way d-man next year.

I'm not saying Del Zotto is bad, but its still a terrible trade for the Jackets at this point.

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01-14-2013, 09:42 PM
  #43
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Tyutin is a soon-to-be 30 year old, second pairing defensmen with a brutal $4.5 million cap hit for the next 5 years. I don't doubt that a contending team would like adding him, but that contract is very tough to take on for what you get from Tyutin.

As far as his value in the trade market, I'd say it is slightly higher than a guy like Zybnek Michalek, to use a recent veteran defensmen trade...Tyutin's point totals are a bit higher and he makes a bit more and they are around the same age.

Michalek was traded for Harrison Ruopp, Marc Cheverie and a 2012 third-round draft pick.

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01-14-2013, 09:57 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by TSA0402 View Post
Since when has HF ever been about fairness? Its either Del Zotto is a consistent 40+ point player at 22 and Nikitin is an unproven NHL player who was lucky, or Del Zotto is inconsistent, sucks defensively and Nikitin is on pace to be 50 point two way d-man next year.

I'm not saying Del Zotto is bad, but its still a terrible trade for the Jackets at this point.
Yup. Everything is a black and white world, and things like "chemistry" and "team development arc" means absolutely nothing. Just plug and play, like it's NHL 13 all over again!

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01-14-2013, 09:59 PM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Halpysback View Post
I figured Columbus would be primarily rebuilding this season, especially since it probably will be an extreme seller's market due to how close all teams with be at the deadline. Umberger, Aucoin, Prospal could fetch far more than they're worth, for instance.
Of those three, the only one likely to be traded at all is Aucoin. Umberger's committed to the Central Ohio area in general, not just the team, and Prospal is signing one-year deals every year until he retires and joins the front office here.

Quote:
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Del Zotto has higher upside than either Tyutin or Nikitin.
The Tyutin/Nikitin pairing actually works now, though. And we have many, many guys who have plenty of "upside".

Let's put it this way. The advanced stat people of the world think that the fact that we added JMFJ (who they universally loathe and think of as the worst player in professional hockey) is at least offset by the fact that in Tyutin-Nikitin we had one of the best pairings in the league. No, really.

MDZ's a quality asset, to be sure, and I wouldn't exactly turn my nose up at the possibility of acquiring him... but he's not worth doing that to our blueline, especially considering the number of offensive blueliners we already have on the roster and in the system.

* * *
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Originally Posted by IHeartZherdev View Post
Compared to what the CBJ has had previously, the Tyutin/Nikitin pairing looked good....but compared to the rest of the NHL...
I'm just going to smile and nod at this one.

* * *
Quote:
Originally Posted by CM Lundqvist View Post
Due to the fact that you really can't argue anything else about Del Zotto aside from bringing up his sophomore slump, you refuse to see the point in which trading for an asset like him wouldn't be a "rebuilding move" and it would defenitely help Columbus in the long run. In fact, there's a good chance that Del Zotto would become Columbus' best defenseman.
Even from a "I have no clue what I'm talking about w/r/t Columbus" perspective, one would at least think Ryan Murray has a distinct advantage there.

MDZ's good. He's not that good.

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Old
01-14-2013, 10:13 PM
  #46
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I don't see Columbus jumping at this at all.

MDZ is solid, but not enough to get a complete 2nd pair of defenceman when he himself is one half of a 2nd pair himself.
Agreed. DelZotto stays unless it is for an upgrade(think Giordano for ex.)

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01-14-2013, 10:49 PM
  #47
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Absolutely no way

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01-14-2013, 10:57 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by Tortorella View Post
Done deal for me.

McDonagh-Girardi
Tyutin-Nikitin
Staal-Stralman

This is essentially rolling 2 elite defense pairings and one very good one. No holes on that defense.
In what fantasy world is a healthy Marc Staal utilized as a 3rd pairing defenseman?


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Old
01-14-2013, 11:29 PM
  #49
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Yup. Everything is a black and white world, and things like "chemistry" and "team development arc" means absolutely nothing. Just plug and play, like it's NHL 13 all over again!
You don't need team chemistry, because you have, *drum roll* Michael Del Zotto!

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01-15-2013, 12:41 AM
  #50
CM Lundqvist
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Since when did Del Zotto become Erik Karlsson? Top notch means not scoring 11 points the previous year.
Since when did I say that Del Zotto was the best offensive defenseman in the league?

However, at 22 years old, tying for 17th at ES points by a defender when a fair amount of defenders in front of him averaged a significant amount of ice time more than he did a game, I'd consider that a top-notch offensive defenseman.

Not "THE BEST OFFENSIVE DEFENSEMAN IN THE GAME" because I didn't know when the words "TOP NOTCH" became a viable substitute for the former phrase.

Go find someone else's mouth to put words in. I get that you're still bitter about losing to the Rangers, but grow up, move on, get over it and stop trying to stir the pot in every thread that involves the Rangers.

You don't like us, WE GET IT. We don't like you either. Our world will continue to work it's ways, and life will move on. Apparently, you can't do the same.

You flood the Nash threads with your non-sense and there's apparently no end in sight.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Viqsi View Post
MDZ's good. He's not that good.
All I'm saying is that Columbus wouldn't just laugh and hang up the phone like many in here have suggested. You've brought up some decent points without the ridiculousness that others have used in this.

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