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Old
01-14-2013, 08:34 PM
  #26
Hatrick Marleau
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Originally Posted by ObsessedCreative View Post
Yeah and adding a guy like Ryan for kennedy would help us, but it doesn't mean that the value and trade is fair.
It makes no sense for us to give up a top 6 foward for a 3rd liner and a decent forward prospect. SJ and Pitt are bad trading partners. We need to get depth forwards without giving up a top 6 forward.

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01-14-2013, 08:36 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Hatrick Marleau View Post
It makes no sense for us to give up a top 6 foward for a 3rd liner and a decent foward prospect.
Sharks fans were just saying what your needs were and I was seeing if the Penguins had the peices to fill those needs.

One poster said he wanted Jeffery in place of Despres in the deal, so I proposed that instead.

You fill two holes with the trading of one guy. That is good asset management.

Also kennedy could potentially become a top 6 guy, he has scored 20 before.

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01-14-2013, 08:39 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by ObsessedCreative View Post
Sharks fans were just saying what your needs were and I was seeing if the Penguins had the peices to fill those needs.

One poster said he wanted Jeffery in place of Despres in the deal, so I proposed that instead.

You fill two holes with the trading of one guy. That is good asset management.

Also kennedy could potentially become a top 6 guy, he has scored 20 before.
We fill one hole and open up another. We want to trade dmen for depth forwards since we are deep at D and thin on forwards.

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01-14-2013, 08:42 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Hatrick Marleau View Post
We fill one hole and open up another. We want to trade dmen for depth forwards since we are deep at D and thin on forwards.
I know I wanted Murray in the deal as well.

How do you open up another hole?

Kennedy is in place for Clowe

You get Jeffery as your 3C

That FILLS two holes with one trade.

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01-14-2013, 08:42 PM
  #30
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And scoring 20 doesn't mean you have top 6 skill. Wasn't he playing with Crosby that year too. Kennedy is nothing more than a 3rd line scorer.

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01-14-2013, 08:43 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by ObsessedCreative View Post
I know I wanted Murray in the deal as well.

How do you open up another hole?

Kennedy is in place for Clowe

You get Jeffery as your 3C

That FILLS two holes with one trade.
Kennedy can't replace Clowe. Also I don't know if Jeffrey can be an effective as a 3C in the NHL.

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01-14-2013, 08:44 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Hatrick Marleau View Post
And scoring 20 doesn't mean you have top 6 skill. Wasn't he playing with Crosby that year too. Kennedy is nothing more than a 3rd line scorer.
No crosby was out with a concussion... he was getting top 6 minutes.

Both Sid & Geno were out in those streches.

Are you just talking out your ass now? Because it really seems like it.

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01-14-2013, 08:44 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Hatrick Marleau View Post
And scoring 20 doesn't mean you have top 6 skill. Wasn't he playing with Crosby that year too. Kennedy is nothing more than a 3rd line scorer.
He was playing with Staal, but he's still and 2nd/3rd line tweener regardless.

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01-14-2013, 08:44 PM
  #34
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I wouldn't do it from a Pens fan perspective. Nope.

Yeah, no.

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01-14-2013, 08:48 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Hatrick Marleau View Post
And scoring 20 doesn't mean you have top 6 skill. Wasn't he playing with Crosby that year too. Kennedy is nothing more than a 3rd line scorer.
Doing it when two of the best centers were out that year, yeah it does mean something because you would need to see him play, or actually know what you are talking about to know he was a man possessed when he scored 20 that year. He was doing his usual "I'm going to check hard at both ends" schtick as he usually does, very well mind you, but then he was setting up plays, scoring, drawing penalties, he was just unreal and it's one of the reasons the Pens are now seeing him as a top 6 option now that he's healthy again.

He has 2.7 shots on goal a game, is solid at both ends of the rink, physical, fast, and has 20 goal potential, which he has proven capable of.

3rd line scorers are a little more valuable than you think. Is Dupuis just a 3rd line scorer too? Last year, he was doing some great things without Sid.

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01-14-2013, 08:51 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Honour Over Glory View Post
Doing it when two of the best centers were out that year, yeah it does mean something because you would need to see him play, or actually know what you are talking about to know he was a man possessed when he scored 20 that year. He was doing his usual "I'm going to check hard at both ends" schtick as he usually does, very well mind you, but then he was setting up plays, scoring, drawing penalties, he was just unreal and it's one of the reasons the Pens are now seeing him as a top 6 option now that he's healthy again.

He has 2.7 shots on goal a game, is solid at both ends of the rink, physical, fast, and has 20 goal potential, which he has proven capable of.

3rd line scorers are a little more valuable than you think. Is Dupuis just a 3rd line scorer too? Last year, he was doing some great things without Sid.
Yeah, I gave up on this guy trying to have a meaningful conversation. It is pretty clear he has been talking out his ass since the start of his posts in this thread.

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01-14-2013, 08:55 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by ObsessedCreative View Post
No crosby was out with a concussion... he was getting top 6 minutes.

Both Sid & Geno were out in those streches.

Are you just talking out your ass now? Because it really seems like it.
Either way it doesn't help us out to trade Clowe for Kennedy and Jeffrey. We get to depth guys but then we are without a complete top 6 forward group. Fill the one hole of depth players but we open up a hole in our top 6. Pitt and SJ are bad trade partners. Clowe is healthy this year and he is a force on the ice when he is.

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01-14-2013, 08:58 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by ObsessedCreative View Post
Yeah, I gave up on this guy trying to have a meaningful conversation. It is pretty clear he has been talking out his ass since the start of his posts in this thread.
This is the 3rd Clowe to Pitt proposal in over a week. They all end the same way. We don't want to trade a top 6 forward for depth players. We are deep on D so if we want depth forwards we will get it by trading defenseman.

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01-14-2013, 09:59 PM
  #39
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I'd dance if this happened. Two pretty tough guys!

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01-14-2013, 10:37 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hatrick Marleau View Post
Adding Jeffrey and Kennedy for Clowe doesn't help us. Clowe for Sutter helps us.
That doesn't mean the value is fair

EDIT: Yikes, read the rest of your comments. I'm not even going to bother. You clearly don't know much about the Pens and their players, but I won't hold that against you, but next time do a little homework.

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01-14-2013, 11:07 PM
  #41
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That doesn't mean the value is fair

EDIT: Yikes, read the rest of your comments. I'm not even going to bother. You clearly don't know much about the Pens and their players, but I won't hold that against you, but next time do a little homework.
Exactly, and I also told him something very similar about the value not being fair in my posts.

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01-14-2013, 11:12 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Honour Over Glory View Post
Doing it when two of the best centers were out that year, yeah it does mean something because you would need to see him play, or actually know what you are talking about to know he was a man possessed when he scored 20 that year. He was doing his usual "I'm going to check hard at both ends" schtick as he usually does, very well mind you, but then he was setting up plays, scoring, drawing penalties, he was just unreal and it's one of the reasons the Pens are now seeing him as a top 6 option now that he's healthy again.

He has 2.7 shots on goal a game, is solid at both ends of the rink, physical, fast, and has 20 goal potential, which he has proven capable of.

3rd line scorers are a little more valuable than you think. Is Dupuis just a 3rd line scorer too? Last year, he was doing some great things without Sid.
Bingo

The gap between Clowe and TK is not that large at all. Do not put too much stock into the 3rd line role he played on the Pens. That 3rd line constantly played against 1st and 2nd lines WHILE still being positive players. TK still scores at a top 6 rate at even strength despite this. He is vastly undervalued by most here because they can't extrapolate what affect his little ice time (roughly 14min/game) has on his counting stats.

My coach is a moron for not giving him more ice time. He has always been very productive on a per min of ice time basis. Placing TK's stats into the SJS roster....

Last year the only Shark to score more pts/60min than TK was Thorton (ie 2nd)
In 2011, TK would've been 6th in even strength pts/60min and ahead of Thorton
2009, TK would've been 5th ahead of Setoguchi

Clowe finished (respectively) in pts/60
6th
1st
5th

Say what you will, TK is a great little player who has constantly performed in the ice time he has been given. He would be in SJS top 6 scoring. Whether SJS played him on the 3rd or 2nd line is up to your coaching staff.

It's not too hard to see where he slots into your lineup and how closely he should match Clowe's even strength production. I don't know how they compare on the PP though.

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01-14-2013, 11:19 PM
  #43
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Oh, give it a rest with your "obviously you don't watch the Penguins" crap. It's not going to get you anywhere with a fan of a team from California.

Secondly, where is he wrong?

You keep saying that Tyler Kennedy can be a top-6 forward, when the truth is that he's an above average 3rd liner. His career high is 45 points. That only happened once, when he was getting tons of prime ice-time due to injuries. He's not a 3rd liner. I don't care if he scored 20 goals once. So did Michal Handzus. You're not going to convince anyone that Kennedy is a suitable second liner.

You also insist that Dustin Jeffery would be a great #3C for the Sharks, when he hasn't done much of anything to show that. He's had a couple of nice seasons in the NHL, but if he's such a great #3C on a playoff team, we'll add to Clowe to get Sutter and you can use Jeffery. It isn't worth trading Ryane Clowe for Dustin Jeffery when we have James Sheppard (go on laugh it up, but he's been great) who could fill the same kind of role we'd ask of Jeffery without us downgrading Clowe to Kennedy.

You insist that he hasn't "done his homework" because he insists on Sutter. He has every right to do that. Clowe for Sutter is a much better deal valuewise than Kennedy and Jeffery for Clowe.

If you think there isn't much of a gap between Clowe and Kennedy, then why don't you use Kennedy in your top-6?

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01-14-2013, 11:25 PM
  #44
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Oh, give it a rest with your "obviously you don't watch the Penguins" crap. It's not going to get you anywhere with a fan of a team from California.

Secondly, where is he wrong?

You keep saying that Tyler Kennedy can be a top-6 forward, when the truth is that he's an above average 3rd liner. His career high is 45 points. That only happened once, when he was getting tons of prime ice-time due to injuries. He's not a 3rd liner. I don't care if he scored 20 goals once. So did Michal Handzus. You're not going to convince anyone that Kennedy is a suitable second liner.

You also insist that Dustin Jeffery would be a great #3C for the Sharks, when he hasn't done much of anything to show that. He's had a couple of nice seasons in the NHL, but if he's such a great #3C on a playoff team, we'll add to Clowe to get Sutter and you can use Jeffery. It isn't worth trading Ryane Clowe for Dustin Jeffery when we have James Sheppard (go on laugh it up, but he's been great) who could fill the same kind of role we'd ask of Jeffery without us downgrading Clowe to Kennedy.

You insist that he hasn't "done his homework" because he insists on Sutter. He has every right to do that. Clowe for Sutter is a much better deal valuewise than Kennedy and Jeffery for Clowe.

If you think there isn't much of a gap between Clowe and Kennedy, then why don't you use Kennedy in your top-6?
He's been injured and hurt for pretty much a season and a half and is finally healthy.

Because the pens are looking to get tougher to play against, as ou should know they play two totally different type of games.

Also if kennedy isn't moved there is a good chance he WILL be in the top 6.

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01-14-2013, 11:33 PM
  #45
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He's been injured and hurt for pretty much a season and a half and is finally healthy.
So has Clowe. But you're making it seem like Clowe has the value of an exact replica of his poor 11-12 season (in an interview just today, he pissed all over himself for his ****** season last year, and didn't once mention the myriad of gruesome injuries he sustained over the same time period), but Jeffery has the value of what he could be.

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Because the pens are looking to get tougher to play against, as ou should know they play two totally different type of games.

Also if kennedy isn't moved there is a good chance he WILL be in the top 6.
Well, the Sharks are not going to trade Ryane Clowe for Tyler Kennedy just because they play two totally different types of games.

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01-14-2013, 11:35 PM
  #46
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Oh, give it a rest with your "obviously you don't watch the Penguins" crap. It's not going to get you anywhere with a fan of a team from California.

Secondly, where is he wrong?

You keep saying that Tyler Kennedy can be a top-6 forward, when the truth is that he's an above average 3rd liner. His career high is 45 points. That only happened once, when he was getting tons of prime ice-time due to injuries. He's not a 3rd liner. I don't care if he scored 20 goals once. So did Michal Handzus. You're not going to convince anyone that Kennedy is a suitable second liner.

You also insist that Dustin Jeffery would be a great #3C for the Sharks, when he hasn't done much of anything to show that. He's had a couple of nice seasons in the NHL, but if he's such a great #3C on a playoff team, we'll add to Clowe to get Sutter and you can use Jeffery. It isn't worth trading Ryane Clowe for Dustin Jeffery when we have James Sheppard (go on laugh it up, but he's been great) who could fill the same kind of role we'd ask of Jeffery without us downgrading Clowe to Kennedy.

You insist that he hasn't "done his homework" because he insists on Sutter. He has every right to do that. Clowe for Sutter is a much better deal valuewise than Kennedy and Jeffery for Clowe.

If you think there isn't much of a gap between Clowe and Kennedy, then why don't you use Kennedy in your top-6?
Not sure who you're directing this post to since it's replying to my comment in a way, but then again, I didn't say anything of the above.

I agree with this post. I don't agree with the other poster. His posts didn't have much truth to them, or substance for that matter.

To be honest...a lot of Pens fans on this forum have this hard-on for finding "Sid's winger"/power forward rental. The former is still a priority, don't get me wrong, but it's not what we need this year. We have a much larger hole in the top-4. Murray and/or Clowe wouldn't help this team that much. So keep them.

People can stat watch or make their own judgements about Tangradi, but the fact is, he has a great opportunity to become a fixture in the Pens lineup and become exactly what Clowe is...only with better speed and grit.

There isn't much here to be honest.

SJ/Pens fans want a TK-Murray swap. Why? That does nothing but weaken the Pens checking line and we have Bortuzzo, Strait and Engelland that play a similar role to Murray's.

Pens fans want Clowe. Why? The problem isn't putting the puck in the net, and Clowe won't become a permanent fixture of Sid's wing. Though I wouldn't turn him down coming to this team for a Cup run.

IDK why trade proposals keep popping up here with Kennedy and Lovejoy. The latter is trash and is likely to get waived. Kennedy has way more value to the Pens 3rd line. What we do have are very, very....very valuable defensive prospects. That's Shero's biggest trading piece, not TK, Lovejoy and Jeffrey. Although, Jeffrey is being underrated in this thread.

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01-14-2013, 11:36 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
So has Clowe. But you're making it seem like Clowe has the value of an exact replica of his poor 11-12 season (in an interview just today, he pissed all over himself for his ****** season last year, and didn't once mention the myriad of gruesome injuries he sustained over the same time period), but Jeffery has the value of what he could be.

I never said that... and you would be getting two guys to fill needs not just a straight up swap stop trying to no see that.

Well, the Sharks are not going to trade Ryane Clowe for Tyler Kennedy just because they play two totally different types of games.
No but you get younger and cheaper and kennedy I think is still a RFA after this deal as well.

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01-14-2013, 11:47 PM
  #48
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No but you get younger and cheaper and kennedy I think is still a RFA after this deal as well.
You're not answering my main issue. You seem to believe that Clowe is no better than the season he just had, and yet Jeffery has the value of a great #3C despite not having proven that.

To the other poster that just wrote an essay above this post:

I'm a notorious Clowe-basher on the Sharks forum, go on as anyone. But it's laughable to me to see you complain about Jeffery being underrated in this thread when Pens fans are underrating Clowe even more.

Clowe had a bad season last year, no one is debating that, for a variety of reasons, including but not solely, severe injury he tried to play through, having a revolving door of piss-poor RW's while Havlat was injured, poor coaching, whatever.

But just one year before, he was one of the best Sharks. He and Couture were the only reason the Sharks won a single game at the beginning of the year.

For as much as I dislike Clowe and want him traded, it's getting ridiculous how underrated he's getting. Yes, he's slow. Yes, he's a below-average defensive player. Yes, he's prone to old school Joe Thornton-esque giveaways. But he more than makes up for those flaws with elite physical play and strength, strong playmaking, a good shot, intangibles, and overall great offensive instincts. Before last season he was one of the best #2LW's in the game. Then one injury-filled season where almost every single Shark underachieved and suddenly he's no better than Tyler Kennedy.

Jeffery could be a solid #3C this year. He seems to have the talent and work ethic. But until he does, it's all potential. You aren't going to get the value of a #3C for Jeffery until he proves anything with a big enough sample size.

At the same time, the Sharks are not going to trade Clowe if no one is willing to fork over what Clowe is worth based on his full body of NHL play, not just one poor season. Clowe will be fully healthy, playing with two great linemates, and in a contract year. He's primed for a fantastic season, but no, the offer the Sharks org is going to take is based around Tyler freaking Kennedy.

Talk about not knowing anything about an org.

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01-15-2013, 12:09 AM
  #49
Hatrick Marleau
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So the reason I know nothing about the Pens is because I demanded Sutter and said Kennedy is nothing more than a 3rd line scorer??

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01-15-2013, 01:20 AM
  #50
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And scoring 20 doesn't mean you have top 6 skill. Wasn't he playing with Crosby that year too. Kennedy is nothing more than a 3rd line scorer.
the only time Kennedy every scored 20 was the year Malkin tore his acl and Crosby had concussion symptons

2010-2011

Neal-Letestu-Kovalev
Kunitz-Staal-Kennedy
Cooke-Talbot-Dupuis
Asham-Jeffery-Adams

thats what our lines looked like after Crosby n Malkin both went down w/ injuries

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