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Prospect Talk PART V

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01-14-2013, 01:01 PM
  #626
blinkman360
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I don't know why some people talk as if players can't continue to develop at the NHL level. Like if Donovan get's promoted now he will always be this version of Donovan... nothing more. Donovan has proven to be BP's best defenseman this year. If the Isles truly want to compete this season, they would be giving their best players roster spots(or at the very least an opportunity for roster spots). Playing Wishart/Landry/Ness is basically saying that the risk of potentially rushing Donovan is more important than the success of the NHL team this season.

BTW, Ness was drafted the same year as Donovan. Ness has also played terribly this year. However Ness is apparently ready to go, while Donovan still needs more seasoning.

This teams cowardly approach with their prospects really needs to stop. They decide to play a 19 year old kid coming off of a concussion last year in a 4th line role, then act surprised when he finishes with one point. Now, because of their own mistake, they refuse to give kids like Strome(much less 22 year old Donovan) a shot in fear that they might **** up and mis-handle them again.

If you don't want to give a kid a chance in camp in fear of potentially rushing him, that's fine(btw, 4th line minutes in a 5-day camp with Reasoner/Boulton is not a "chance"). That said, how can you have that mindset and NOT bring in some type of stopgap? You are going to rely on Frans Nielsen giving you 2nd line minutes(when he's already proven that he isn't that type of player) and a guy like Casey Cizikas giving you 3rd line minutes(a complete unknown who most see as a future 4C here). **Fun fact: Cizikas was drafted in '09 - a year after Matt Donovan - however no one has any qualms with penciling him into a top-9 spot, apparently.**

This team is just all over the place right now, IMO. Make up your mind. If you don't want to rush a prospect, that's fine. But not bringing in a real solution and expecting guys like Cizikas and Landry/Wishart/Ness to hold the fort is IMO just as bad as waving the white flag before the season even starts...

I really hope I'm wrong and guys like Donovan, Nino, Nelson and even Strome are actually getting consideration. At this point though, that seems unlikely.

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01-14-2013, 01:41 PM
  #627
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Originally Posted by IslandersFan17 View Post
Color me confused, I know I don't have a dog in this fight seeing as how I don't post much here. However, in one breath people discuss how often we rush and ruin prospects and in the next are calling for heads when certain specs don't get the call up.

The one thing I am always told around draft time is how long it takes for defenders to develop. Also am told how you never want to rattle a young players confidence.

If Donovan is going to get more minutes, in all situations, and is playing well, why throw a wrench in that? This is a shortened season to begin with, allow Donovan to keep refining his game. If the situation calls for it barring injury or a losing record at the end of the year, then call the kid up and let him get a taste of the NHL.
Your passionate exuberance for logical argument is unwelcome.

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01-14-2013, 01:58 PM
  #628
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Originally Posted by lukasfindl View Post
its not requirement to have watched BPT live in order to post on this website. Take it easy!
I was just trying to make a point since there was a comment stating something to the point of "my only knowledge of certain prospects were what I've watched on AHL Live" from a certain troll.

I don't profess to know everything but if like to think I know a little something about these kids that I've watched live since they got here. I don't appreciate being called out on not knowing what I'm talking about when it's clear as day that I am informing others what they may not know due to not being able to follow these kids as closely.

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01-14-2013, 02:11 PM
  #629
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Originally Posted by bluechipbonzo View Post
Dan's right- Nino and Donovan could make the team, it's just not a necessity right now.

And that's taking the big picture...Donovan has room to grow, same with Nino.

Are the desperate enough for bodies that they should hinder top prospects' development is the question.
Either Donovan is good enough to make the Isles a better team right now, or he's not. If the team feels the Isles can win MORE games with Joe Finley, Matt Carkner, Ty Wishart, Jon Landry then Donovan stays in Bridgeport.

Same for Niederreiter and Strome. If they aren't better than: Tavares, Okposo, Moulson, Nielsen, Grabner, Boyes - they stay in BP and Niagara. (I wouldn't put either of those in the bottom six at this stage.

We have to think the Isles know best about Nino's ability today, versus last year, versus what his potential upside might be. Capuano and Snow saw him all season last year and I'm sure was watching him closely this year in the AHL. Same for Donovan and Strome.

I have no problem with them in the AHL (and Strome in the CHL).

I think BLINKMAN's got a point though, no reason to think Donovan won't continue to improve or develop once he's on the Islanders. In fact, his development would be REQUIRED in order for him to succeed. The idea around "defensemen take longer" means at the NHL level as well as prior levels. Facing NHL forwards only happens in the NHL so Donovan will require sheltered minutes and coaching and mentoring at the NHL level no matter how many seasons he plays in the AHL.

I'd rather have Donovan as a bottom pairing dman over Wishart or Landry. I do think the additional minutes and responsibility is a good thing for Donovan (and Nino) in the AHL, but playing behind a guy like Streit and Martinek and facing forwards in the NHL is a necessary and valuable step to NHL hockey. Does he HAVE TO get it now? no. Ultimately, I feel comfortable either way.

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01-14-2013, 02:15 PM
  #630
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Originally Posted by Isles Enforcer View Post
I was just trying to make a point since there was a comment stating something to the point of "my only knowledge of certain prospects were what I've watched on AHL Live" from a certain troll.

I don't profess to know everything but if like to think I know a little something about these kids that I've watched live since they got here. I don't appreciate being called out on not knowing what I'm talking about when it's clear as day that I am informing others what they may not know due to not being able to follow these kids as closely.
Many of us appreciate your insights. It's been years of watching these guys and providing the context around the numbers that can often elude us stat-watchers.

I watch the Marlies quite a bit and comparing Kadri's stats to his actual play is NIGHT and DAY. Your insights (along with a few others who watch BP regularly) are much appreciated.

As an aside, Paul Ranger looks great in the AHL but rumour is, he doesn't WANT TO play in the NHL. He signed an AHL contract and has no intentions of playing elsewhere, despite how good he's playing. Interesting.


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01-14-2013, 02:21 PM
  #631
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Originally Posted by redbull View Post
well in your rights and many of us appreciate your insights. It's been years of watching these guys and providing the context around the numbers that can often elude us stat-watchers.

I watch the Marlies quite a bit and comparing Kadri's stats to his actual play is NIGHT and DAY. Your insights (along with a few others who watch BP regularly) are much appreciated.

As an aside, Paul Ranger looks great in the AHL but rumour is, he doesn't WANT TO play in the NHL. He signed an AHL contract and has no intentions of playing elsewhere, despite how good he's playing. Interesting.
That is spot on about Kadri. I don't want to derail this thread but watching Kadri play in juniors made me think he was the same player Brian Burke thought he would be. Hasn't exactly turned out that way as of yet, but he's still young.

I heard Ranger wants to be closer to home and the NHL travel schedule is something he isn't interested about. I can't rem, but it was for family issues.

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01-14-2013, 02:28 PM
  #632
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Originally Posted by redbull View Post
Either Donovan is good enough to make the Isles a better team right now, or he's not. If the team feels the Isles can win MORE games with Joe Finley, Matt Carkner, Ty Wishart, Jon Landry then Donovan stays in Bridgeport.

Same for Niederreiter and Strome. If they aren't better than: Tavares, Okposo, Moulson, Nielsen, Grabner, Boyes - they stay in BP and Niagara. (I wouldn't put either of those in the bottom six at this stage.

We have to think the Isles know best about Nino's ability today, versus last year, versus what his potential upside might be. Capuano and Snow saw him all season last year and I'm sure was watching him closely this year in the AHL. Same for Donovan and Strome.

I have no problem with them in the AHL (and Strome in the CHL).

I think BLINKMAN's got a point though, no reason to think Donovan won't continue to improve or develop once he's on the Islanders. In fact, his development would be REQUIRED in order for him to succeed. The idea around "defensemen take longer" means at the NHL level as well as prior levels. Facing NHL forwards only happens in the NHL so Donovan will require sheltered minutes and coaching and mentoring at the NHL level no matter how many seasons he plays in the AHL.

I'd rather have Donovan as a bottom pairing dman over Wishart or Landry. I do think the additional minutes and responsibility is a good thing for Donovan (and Nino) in the AHL, but playing behind a guy like Streit and Martinek and facing forwards in the NHL is a necessary and valuable step to NHL hockey. Does he HAVE TO get it now? no. Ultimately, I feel comfortable either way.
It's just confusing to me, because with Wishart/Landry you pretty much know what you're getting. Wishart is a big guy who isn't physical, brings basically zero offense and mediocre defense. He may still have some upside, but you are taking a pretty big gamble if you are banking on that. Landry is what he is. A bad defender who could potentially help on the PP. Honestly, I see him doing much more harm than good. Ness is the one guy who actually has some sort of upside, but based on his play vs Donovan's play this year - the fact that Ness was chosen makes me scratch my head. They are basically two guys who have similar upside, except Donovan is further along, bigger, slightly better offensively and much better defensively. Just doesn't make sense to me...

As far as up front, it just appears to me that the Isles are content with rolling a 1st line, a 3rd line, and two 4th lines. I just don't see any upside with Nielsen playing as the 2C and Cizikas as the 3C. This is going to be a team that really struggles to score goals. If they had a really strong defense I could live with it. Unfortunately, that's not the case.

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01-14-2013, 03:06 PM
  #633
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Originally Posted by blinkman360 View Post
It's just confusing to me, because with Wishart/Landry you pretty much know what you're getting. Wishart is a big guy who isn't physical, brings basically zero offense and mediocre defense. He may still have some upside, but you are taking a pretty big gamble if you are banking on that. Landry is what he is. A bad defender who could potentially help on the PP. Honestly, I see him doing much more harm than good. Ness is the one guy who actually has some sort of upside, but based on his play vs Donovan's play this year - the fact that Ness was chosen makes me scratch my head. They are basically two guys who have similar upside, except Donovan is further along, bigger, slightly better offensively and much better defensively. Just doesn't make sense to me...

As far as up front, it just appears to me that the Isles are content with rolling a 1st line, a 3rd line, and two 4th lines. I just don't see any upside with Nielsen playing as the 2C and Cizikas as the 3C. This is going to be a team that really struggles to score goals. If they had a really strong defense I could live with it. Unfortunately, that's not the case.
I don't understand the Wishart/Landry thing either. It's not like these guys are even as proven or capable as Jeff Finger, Mark Eaton or Bruno Gervais for that matter. They are WEAK AHL players, having them in the NHL is unacceptable to me. And yes, I'd put Donovan ahead of those guys for sure, regardless of his specific professional development and upside at this time. I'd never have Landry/Wishart on my NHL team except as an injury fill-in.

We'll see how game 1 shapes up though, still a long way to go before that decision is final.

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Originally Posted by Isles Enforcer View Post
That is spot on about Kadri. I don't want to derail this thread but watching Kadri play in juniors made me think he was the same player Brian Burke thought he would be. Hasn't exactly turned out that way as of yet, but he's still young.

I heard Ranger wants to be closer to home and the NHL travel schedule is something he isn't interested about. I can't rem, but it was for family issues.
Ranger never disclosed why he left hockey, it's something he wants to keep private.

Kadri was awesome in London but has had huge problems adjusting to pro hockey. He plays "rob schremp hockey" - not good.

I don't think he'll make the Leafs this year either. And if you're an all-offense player who can't win a job over Tyler Bozak, that's not a good sign.

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01-14-2013, 03:15 PM
  #634
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Originally Posted by redbull View Post
I don't understand the Wishart/Landry thing either. It's not like these guys are even as proven or capable as Jeff Finger, Mark Eaton or Bruno Gervais for that matter. They are WEAK AHL players, having them in the NHL is unacceptable to me. And yes, I'd put Donovan ahead of those guys for sure, regardless of his specific professional development and upside at this time. I'd never have Landry/Wishart on my NHL team except as an injury fill-in.

We'll see how game 1 shapes up though, still a long way to go before that decision is final.



Ranger never disclosed why he left hockey, it's something he wants to keep private.

Kadri was awesome in London but has had huge problems adjusting to pro hockey. He plays "rob schremp hockey" - not good.

I don't think he'll make the Leafs this year either. And if you're an all-offense player who can't win a job over Tyler Bozak, that's not a good sign.
I know someone "in the mix" who told me about Ranger but it's def a personal issue.
And that's exactly what I was saying about Kadri.

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01-14-2013, 03:44 PM
  #635
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Help is on the way.....

When I see the Isles dumpster diving and recycling in desperation just before the season starts (Landry, Wishart, Martinek) to fill out our defense, I have to remind myself....... Help is on the way!!!!!

Reinhart Hamonic
Donovan McDonald
De Haan Mayfield
Pedan Pokka
Russo Pelech
Kichton Somerby

and although they may not be in the long term plans, Carkner and Finley will serve their purpose over the next few seasons. They will bridge the gap and serve as SERIOUS deterrents for anyone looking to rough up our kids....Help is on the way!!! )

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01-14-2013, 03:49 PM
  #636
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Originally Posted by petrocelli View Post
When I see the Isles dumpster diving and recycling in desperation just before the season starts (Landry, Wishart, Martinek) to fill out our defense, I have to remind myself....... Help is on the way!!!!!

Reinhart Hamonic
Donovan McDonald
De Haan Mayfield
Pedan Pokka
Russo Pelech
Kichton Somerby

and although they may not be in the long term plans, Carkner and Finley will serve their purpose over the next few seasons. They will bridge the gap and serve as SERIOUS deterrents for anyone looking to rough up our kids....Help is on the way!!! )
You forgot Seth Jones...

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01-14-2013, 04:46 PM
  #637
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You forgot Seth Jones...
That would be insanely amazing!!!

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01-14-2013, 06:03 PM
  #638
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You forgot Seth Jones...
and Leduc!

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01-14-2013, 11:57 PM
  #639
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Slow hockey day for Islanders prospects (in fact it's a pretty slow week ahead). SO I uploaded most of my Andrei Pedan Highlights from the 2012-13 season today. I think my favorite one is.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dDMlbVH2m8

Tomorrow (and maybe Wednesday if I don't finish) I'll work on the Niagra Ice Dogs first half highlights. That will keep me busy with Mitch Theoret (pre-trade), Jesse Graham, and especially Ryan Strome.

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01-15-2013, 01:33 AM
  #640
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I was just trying to make a point since there was a comment stating something to the point of "my only knowledge of certain prospects were what I've watched on AHL Live" from a certain troll.

I don't profess to know everything but if like to think I know a little something about these kids that I've watched live since they got here. I don't appreciate being called out on not knowing what I'm talking about when it's clear as day that I am informing others what they may not know due to not being able to follow these kids as closely.
sorry for beating on you, i do appreciate your insight!

donovan played well against albany btw.


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01-15-2013, 02:17 AM
  #641
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I don't know why some people talk as if players can't continue to develop at the NHL level. Like if Donovan get's promoted now he will always be this version of Donovan... nothing more. Donovan has proven to be BP's best defenseman this year. If the Isles truly want to compete this season, they would be giving their best players roster spots(or at the very least an opportunity for roster spots). Playing Wishart/Landry/Ness is basically saying that the risk of potentially rushing Donovan is more important than the success of the NHL team this season.

BTW, Ness was drafted the same year as Donovan. Ness has also played terribly this year. However Ness is apparently ready to go, while Donovan still needs more seasoning.

This teams cowardly approach with their prospects really needs to stop. They decide to play a 19 year old kid coming off of a concussion last year in a 4th line role, then act surprised when he finishes with one point. Now, because of their own mistake, they refuse to give kids like Strome(much less 22 year old Donovan) a shot in fear that they might **** up and mis-handle them again.

If you don't want to give a kid a chance in camp in fear of potentially rushing him, that's fine(btw, 4th line minutes in a 5-day camp with Reasoner/Boulton is not a "chance"). That said, how can you have that mindset and NOT bring in some type of stopgap? You are going to rely on Frans Nielsen giving you 2nd line minutes(when he's already proven that he isn't that type of player) and a guy like Casey Cizikas giving you 3rd line minutes(a complete unknown who most see as a future 4C here). **Fun fact: Cizikas was drafted in '09 - a year after Matt Donovan - however no one has any qualms with penciling him into a top-9 spot, apparently.**

This team is just all over the place right now, IMO. Make up your mind. If you don't want to rush a prospect, that's fine. But not bringing in a real solution and expecting guys like Cizikas and Landry/Wishart/Ness to hold the fort is IMO just as bad as waving the white flag before the season even starts...

I really hope I'm wrong and guys like Donovan, Nino, Nelson and even Strome are actually getting consideration. At this point though, that seems unlikely.
Here's a train of thought:

We have two junk cars....a 1967 Dodge Charger (nice, worth a good buck, speedy and with prestige) and you have a 1975 Mustang (nice, not worth much, good driver, worth a bit but not a serious collector.

You have to drive one. You have to get both road worthy.

Which one do you rush to service and which one do you take meticulous care of to see it reaches mint condition?

Ness isn't a blue chipper. Donovan has proven himself, though he's not a gem 1969 Charger (Dukes of Hazzard gem car, though they used several years and destroyes millions of dollars worth of Detroit steel), he IS looking to be something special long term.

So should we promote the kid or take extra special care to ensure a much more likely success for the sake of the future of the franchise, the satisfation of the majority of fans and just for the sake of GREAT hockey?

I say go for Ness and continue building a dynamite team in the future.

And that means waiting on Nino (holes in his game), Strome (size, strength and skill further refined) and Reinhart (grow that offense and mature further into a man and leader).

But many want to see them on TV. Want to give them a chance. Want to say they've proven all they can.

Well, we have three decades of that method proving we're wrong. You fill this roster with better players and better leaders and the logic of promoting them to third pairings or fourth lines gains strength, but to do it now is just folly. Again. As it has been.

So we see Ty Wishart and Landry and others as great options for the greater picture. They can play, like 1975 Mustangs, and we patiently wait to roll out perfectly tuned and polished and attended to 1967 and 1969 Chargers. In due time. (that line always makes me think of The Exorcist!)

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01-15-2013, 02:36 AM
  #642
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Originally Posted by OlTimeHockey View Post
Ness isn't a blue chipper. Donovan has proven himself, though he's not a gem 1969 Charger (Dukes of Hazzard gem car, though they used several years and destroyes millions of dollars worth of Detroit steel), he IS looking to be something special long term.

So should we promote the kid or take extra special care to ensure a much more likely success for the sake of the future of the franchise, the satisfation of the majority of fans and just for the sake of GREAT hockey?
i know many are gonna hate this, but it would be ok to be subpar in this shortened season. If Jones or MacKinnon wait at the end of this, lets field our team of misfits. Could we get charlie sheen's little brother to be our coach though?

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01-15-2013, 03:12 AM
  #643
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i know many are gonna hate this, but it would be ok to be subpar in this shortened season. If Jones or MacKinnon wait at the end of this, lets field our team of misfits. Could we get charlie sheen's little brother to be our coach though?
Even if we were looking at the 1999 draft, it would be awesome to have three kids meet their potential compared to making the playoffs maybe this year and never seeing any of them pan out fully.

Wishart would bring maybe a little more, maybe a little less than Reinhart in a rushed rookie campaign. Or Donovan might bring more, but he might not be a "9" in the future if we're not patient. In a rushed season, do we want them developing when they are FAR MORE LIKELY to get hurt?

Young guys, young psyches....not worth risking it.

Yeah, and we have a better chance at Jones, but I care more about a greater chance at a skilled, hulking hitter like Nino being something rather than him being the next Isbister.

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01-15-2013, 05:03 AM
  #644
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So we see Ty Wishart and Landry and others as great options for the greater picture. They can play, like 1975 Mustangs, and we patiently wait to roll out perfectly tuned and polished and attended to 1967 and 1969 Chargers. In due time. (that line always makes me think of The Exorcist!)
Jon Landry is a tricycle

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01-15-2013, 07:22 AM
  #645
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Originally Posted by OlTimeHockey View Post
Here's a train of thought:

We have two junk cars....a 1967 Dodge Charger (nice, worth a good buck, speedy and with prestige) and you have a 1975 Mustang (nice, not worth much, good driver, worth a bit but not a serious collector.

You have to drive one. You have to get both road worthy.

Which one do you rush to service and which one do you take meticulous care of to see it reaches mint condition?

Ness isn't a blue chipper. Donovan has proven himself, though he's not a gem 1969 Charger (Dukes of Hazzard gem car, though they used several years and destroyes millions of dollars worth of Detroit steel), he IS looking to be something special long term.

So should we promote the kid or take extra special care to ensure a much more likely success for the sake of the future of the franchise, the satisfation of the majority of fans and just for the sake of GREAT hockey?

I say go for Ness and continue building a dynamite team in the future.

And that means waiting on Nino (holes in his game), Strome (size, strength and skill further refined) and Reinhart (grow that offense and mature further into a man and leader).

But many want to see them on TV. Want to give them a chance. Want to say they've proven all they can.

Well, we have three decades of that method proving we're wrong. You fill this roster with better players and better leaders and the logic of promoting them to third pairings or fourth lines gains strength, but to do it now is just folly. Again. As it has been.

So we see Ty Wishart and Landry and others as great options for the greater picture. They can play, like 1975 Mustangs, and we patiently wait to roll out perfectly tuned and polished and attended to 1967 and 1969 Chargers. In due time. (that line always makes me think of The Exorcist!)
I get this line of thinking, I really do, but judging by the way kids like Strome/Nino/Donovan have been used/not used in camp, it's clear that this team has had no intention of promoting them this year. If that's the case, my main gripe is with not bringing in legitimate options to provide the one/two year stopgap for these kids. Essentially the Isles seem to be just throwing a bunch of **** against a wall and hoping something sticks(like Cizikas maybe coming out of nowhere to become a 40-50 point scorer, or Landry turning into a poor-man's Shea Weber).

I see this more as an "eff-you" to the fans than anything else. You want to let the kids develop a little more, that's fine. I understand that approach and respect that you/they don't want to risk hurting their development. That said, how can you ice this team(again, on paper) and expect to not finish in the bottom-5 again? Maybe winning isn't a priority for them yet, but I was under the impression it was.

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Originally Posted by OlTimeHockey View Post
Even if we were looking at the 1999 draft, it would be awesome to have three kids meet their potential compared to making the playoffs maybe this year and never seeing any of them pan out fully.

Wishart would bring maybe a little more, maybe a little less than Reinhart in a rushed rookie campaign. Or Donovan might bring more, but he might not be a "9" in the future if we're not patient. In a rushed season, do we want them developing when they are FAR MORE LIKELY to get hurt?

Young guys, young psyches....not worth risking it.

Yeah, and we have a better chance at Jones, but I care more about a greater chance at a skilled, hulking hitter like Nino being something rather than him being the next Isbister.
Again I'll refer to one of my previous posts. Playing a kid too early or slightly early doesn't mean a kid will be ruined or that he'll stop developing. I'm pretty certain that Nino would learn and develop more playing in a top-9 NHL role than he would playing top-3 or 6 minutes down in Bridgeport. Will he have growing pains? Sure. 99% of all prospects have growing pains. Being patient with them won't prevent that. At some point though, you need to at least see what you have. For all we know Nino could be one of this team's top goal scorers this year, except we'll probably never know because he didn't even get a camp invite.

Nino bothers me. Donovan bothers me. Strome less so, and Reinhart doesn't bother me at all. You want to be careful with the 18 and 19 year old kids? That's fine, although you should have a backup plan that isn't Casey Cizikas/Jon Landry. That said, with Bailey hurt this team has a few holes at wing in the top-9, and with Visnovsky in the KHL we have at least two holes on defense. The fact that Donovan and Nino(a kid who is 3rd in AHL scoring) aren't being considered is a joke, IMO.

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01-15-2013, 07:34 AM
  #646
Dan-o16
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I don't want to get into the whole development/prospect/rushing debate. I don't even watch Bridgeport games, so I'll defer to people who do about that. But could someone just explain to me what difference it makes to be playing in camp vs. playing in Bridgeport in terms of an opportunity to make the team.

From my point of view because there are no other preseason games besides the scrimmage which involves Bridgeport, there's no difference at all. The only real opportunity for a legitimate on-ice evaluation of the players will be the scrimmage, and Nino and Donovan will obviously be there for that. And the advantage of having Nino and Donovan playing in Bridgeport is that they don't have the competitive letdown of not playing in games for a week.

So, how can anyone draw conclusions about camp invites to mean anything about either player making the team? I just don't get it. Let it get sorted out by the GM and coach's actual evaluation.

Cheers,

Dan-o

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01-15-2013, 08:22 AM
  #647
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OlTimeHockey View Post
Here's a train of thought:

We have two junk cars....a 1967 Dodge Charger (nice, worth a good buck, speedy and with prestige) and you have a 1975 Mustang (nice, not worth much, good driver, worth a bit but not a serious collector.

You have to drive one. You have to get both road worthy.

Which one do you rush to service and which one do you take meticulous care of to see it reaches mint condition?

Ness isn't a blue chipper. Donovan has proven himself, though he's not a gem 1969 Charger (Dukes of Hazzard gem car, though they used several years and destroyes millions of dollars worth of Detroit steel), he IS looking to be something special long term.

So should we promote the kid or take extra special care to ensure a much more likely success for the sake of the future of the franchise, the satisfation of the majority of fans and just for the sake of GREAT hockey?

I say go for Ness and continue building a dynamite team in the future.

And that means waiting on Nino (holes in his game), Strome (size, strength and skill further refined) and Reinhart (grow that offense and mature further into a man and leader).

But many want to see them on TV. Want to give them a chance. Want to say they've proven all they can.

Well, we have three decades of that method proving we're wrong. You fill this roster with better players and better leaders and the logic of promoting them to third pairings or fourth lines gains strength, but to do it now is just folly. Again. As it has been.

So we see Ty Wishart and Landry and others as great options for the greater picture. They can play, like 1975 Mustangs, and we patiently wait to roll out perfectly tuned and polished and attended to 1967 and 1969 Chargers. In due time. (that line always makes me think of The Exorcist!)
Good post. Donovan's game is also one that takes longer to develop correctly. Better to let him marinate longer so he doesn't become yet another 5/6 PP specialist type.

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01-15-2013, 08:29 AM
  #648
Chapin Landvogt
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Originally Posted by Dan-o16 View Post
So, how can anyone draw conclusions about camp invites to mean anything about either player making the team? I just don't get it. Let it get sorted out by the GM and coach's actual evaluation.

Cheers,

Dan-o
I'm thinking that if this were September, all of the guys we're discussing would be at camp and trying to obtain a job.

Since it isn't and the AHL season is running parallel - where Cappy, Cairns, Thompson and Weight have been watching things the entire time the lockout has been going on - this mini-camp isn't about giving anybody a look or testing anybody other than first rounder juniors who can still be sent back to junior anyways, even if the five game test run might be in the cards.

The camp seems to solely be about getting the bodies together who the team feels it will be going with to start the year. Probably some special teams and chemistry work will be at the core of it all.

I'd say that if Bailey and Joensuu weren't injured and Visnovsky were here, we wouldn't even be seeing Cizikas, Ullstrom and Wishart/Landry in the camp.

That it looks like the team thoroughly plans on leaving particularly Donovan and Nino on the farm for the whole ride this season - until further injuries dictate otherwise - is something we'll just have to respect as being a managerial decision, even if we might think these two have more to offer right now than others who are participating in the mini-camp.

My biggest surprise is that McDonald is hanging around. I truly thought his role was only going to be a purely AHL one.

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01-15-2013, 09:01 AM
  #649
blinkman360
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan-o16 View Post
I don't want to get into the whole development/prospect/rushing debate. I don't even watch Bridgeport games, so I'll defer to people who do about that. But could someone just explain to me what difference it makes to be playing in camp vs. playing in Bridgeport in terms of an opportunity to make the team.

From my point of view because there are no other preseason games besides the scrimmage which involves Bridgeport, there's no difference at all. The only real opportunity for a legitimate on-ice evaluation of the players will be the scrimmage, and Nino and Donovan will obviously be there for that. And the advantage of having Nino and Donovan playing in Bridgeport is that they don't have the competitive letdown of not playing in games for a week.

So, how can anyone draw conclusions about camp invites to mean anything about either player making the team? I just don't get it. Let it get sorted out by the GM and coach's actual evaluation.

Cheers,

Dan-o
This was my thought originally, hoping that maybe the Isles knew what they already had with guys like Nino/Donovan but wanted to give guys like Cizikas/Landry a second look. From what I've read recently, apparently Snow wants to let Nino finish the year in BP(or at least that's the plan. I'm assuming if someone struggles at the NHL level that Nino will get a look). I've also read that basically what you see in training camp(lines-wise) is what you are going to get. Moulson-Tavares-Okposo; Grabner-Nielsen-Boyes; Ullstrom-Cizikas-McDonald; Martin-Reasoner-Boulton/Strome(no way Strome makes this team as a 4th line RW..although at this point nothing will surprise me). The only uncertainty that I'm aware of at this point is whether or not Landry will remain as this team's #6.

So yes, I do think the fact that Nino and Donovan weren't invited to camp is an indicator of the Isles not wanting them on this team just yet. I hope you are right though, and they actually are being considered.

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01-15-2013, 09:53 AM
  #650
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan-o16 View Post
So, how can anyone draw conclusions about camp invites to mean anything about either player making the team? I just don't get it. Let it get sorted out by the GM and coach's actual evaluation.
The "training camp" for Bridgeport players (making the NYI) was their first 35 games. That was their chance to prove they are better, more deserving than the guys who were on NHL rosters last year (and years prior)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Chapin Landvogt View Post
I'd say that if Bailey and Joensuu weren't injured and Visnovsky were here, we wouldn't even be seeing Cizikas, Ullstrom and Wishart/Landry in the camp.

That it looks like the team thoroughly plans on leaving particularly Donovan and Nino on the farm for the whole ride this season - until further injuries dictate otherwise - is something we'll just have to respect as being a managerial decision, even if we might think these two have more to offer right now than others who are participating in the mini-camp.

My biggest surprise is that McDonald is hanging around. I truly thought his role was only going to be a purely AHL one.
I agree that a healthy Joensuu and Bailey would be two more call-ups that would have stayed in BP, most likely.
Though, I believe Ullstrom will make the team even after those two are healthy.

McDonald (like Landry) might just be called up so they can be waived if another player is picked up on waivers. Like Wishart was waived after claiming Finley. I don't think McDonald or Landry or Wishart will be on the opening night roster. Unless it's as a #7 in the WaitingForVisnovsky scenario.

I think Snow will add one more dman either before the first game or once he knows for sure that Visnovsky isn't coming. That could be a Mark Eaton or Griffin Reinhart (for a few games) or Matt Donovan or someone via trade.

Streit - Martinek - Hamonic - MacDonald - Carkner - Finley/Visnovsky


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