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Old
01-15-2013, 09:32 AM
  #101
Pi
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Originally Posted by 416Leafer View Post
It's not hate. It's just looking at hockey as more than just goal/assist totals. Defensive play is VERY important. Physical play is also very important. Kessel is a great piece to have. But having a bunch of people try to argue that he's a top 10-15 player gets annoying after a while.
Kessel is no top 15 player. I don't see anyone saying that.

He should be anywhere between 25-40. 47th is just ridiculous.

Rick Nash is higher on the list than Kessel, you don't find that ridiculous?

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01-15-2013, 09:48 AM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Kulemon View Post
You're forgetting already that Kessel pretty much carried this team in the first half of last season?

The amount of Kessel hate, even here in this thread is sickening and I sure hope you guys aren't leaf fans because its disgusting how much you people under appreciate this kid.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pi View Post
Kessel is no top 15 player. I don't see anyone saying that.

He should be anywhere between 25-40. 47th is just ridiculous.

Rick Nash is higher on the list than Kessel, you don't find that ridiculous?
Can we tone down the outrage because some people have a different opinion than others? It doesn't mean people hate Kessel and it doesn't mean they aren't Leafs fans either. Saying Phil should be anywhere between 25-40 is fine and dandy, but it's only 7 spots lower then the bottom end of the estimate which hardly makes it "ridiculous". It's just a list, I doubt it will affect your lives in a significant way.

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01-15-2013, 09:50 AM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Pi View Post
Kessel is no top 15 player. I don't see anyone saying that.

He should be anywhere between 25-40. 47th is just ridiculous.

Rick Nash is higher on the list than Kessel, you don't find that ridiculous?
Nash has size & strength and leadership abilities that Kessel doesn't. He is big, strong and crashes the net fearlessly while scoring as many goals as Kessel does in the process over the past 4 seasons.

Total Goals scored - last 4 seasons (2008-09 to 2011-12)

Rick Nash (40, 33, 32 & 30) = 135 goals total
Phil Kessel (36, 30, 32 & 37) = 135 goals total

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01-15-2013, 09:52 AM
  #104
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BEST players help you win. Kessel hasn't won ****. I'm just happy he made the freakin list.

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01-15-2013, 09:54 AM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Mess View Post
Nash has size & strength and leadership abilities that Kessel doesn't. He is big, strong and crashes the net fearlessly while scoring as many goals as Kessel does in the process over the past 4 seasons.

Total Goals scored - last 4 seasons (2008-09 to 2011-12)

Rick Nash (40, 33, 32 & 30) = 135 goals total
Phil Kessel (36, 30, 32 & 37) = 135 goals total
Nash has leadership abilities?

The ability to lead his team to the gutter every single year?

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01-15-2013, 10:05 AM
  #106
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Originally Posted by GoodCanadianBoy View Post
Nash has leadership abilities?

The ability to lead his team to the gutter every single year?
He wore the "C" on his jersey in Columbus and has a gold medal around his neck representing Canada at the Olympics.

For Kessel this is an improvement on last years TSN 2011-12 top 50 list (http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/feature/?id=49962) where he didn't crack the line-up.

The panelist put him on this years list due to his past season performance as they felt he took Bobby Ryan's place on the chart, who also has 4 straight 30+ goal seasons but ended up being ranked #51 this year and falling out of their top 50.

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01-15-2013, 10:11 AM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Mess View Post
He wore the "C" on his jersey in Columbus and has a gold medal around his neck representing Canada at the Olympics.

For Kessel this is an improvement on last years TSN 2011-12 top 50 list (http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/feature/?id=49962) where he didn't crack the line-up.

The panelist put him on this years list due to his past season performance as they felt he took Bobby Ryan's place on the chart, who also has 4 straight 30+ goal seasons but ended up being ranked #51 this year and falling out of their top 50.
Phaneuf also has a 'C'. Luongo also had a 'C'. Doesn't make you a good leader. He played in Columbus, not like they had too many options.

I agree with you on Kessel, however I disagree that Nash is some type of leader. And let's get real, he wasn't alone on team Canada...

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01-15-2013, 10:15 AM
  #108
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There are honestly only a few people on this list higher than Kessel that you could not argue are as good or better than him. J. Staal, Brown, Richards, Seguin, Benn.

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01-15-2013, 10:38 AM
  #109
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Originally Posted by bunjay View Post
There are honestly only a few people on this list higher than Kessel that you could not argue are as good or better than him. J. Staal, Brown, Richards, Seguin, Benn.


4/5 of those won a Cup.

Kessel is a complimentary player, not a franchise player.

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01-15-2013, 10:39 AM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Mess View Post
Nash has size & strength and leadership abilities that Kessel doesn't.
What leadership abilities?

and Nash is fat, not strong, and definitely not physical. He's also nowhere near as fast as Kessel, and has never come anywhere near finishing 6th in the league in scoring, despite playing on a team that couldn't care less about playing defense.

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01-15-2013, 10:48 AM
  #111
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Lists like these are strictly based on how sexy the name is. Hockey ability, production, and stats usually have little to do with how these players are ordered.

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01-15-2013, 10:51 AM
  #112
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Originally Posted by zeke View Post
What leadership abilities?

and Nash is fat, not strong, and definitely not physical. He's also nowhere near as fast as Kessel, and has never come anywhere near finishing 6th in the league in scoring, despite playing on a team that couldn't care less about playing defense.
Agreed. The only difference is that Nash has played better when surrounded by better players, he's excelled on Team Canada for example, where Kessel has been awful internationally.

But Kessel's very underrated by many in hockey. Having a chance to watch him every game, he's one of the best scorers in hockey and does is largely on his own.

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Old
01-15-2013, 10:57 AM
  #113
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Originally Posted by achtungbaby View Post
The Top 30 is decent IMO. Maybe Nash should be a little lower, but aside from that its respectable.

Outside the top 30, there a couple gripes I have: Seguin, Getzlaf, and Neal are ranked too high. Dustin Brown, Taylor Hall, and Jordan Staal should not even be on the list. The obvious omissions include Kesler and Price. Kessel should probably be ranked a higher, but not by much.

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Old
01-15-2013, 11:00 AM
  #114
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Wasn't LA dying to trade Brown at the Trade Deadline last year? Now because he had a good playoffs all of a sudden he is better then Kessel.

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01-15-2013, 11:02 AM
  #115
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I'm assuming this is based on recent performance and not on raw talent, because in terms of raw talent I still think Ovechkin is second only to Crosby. However, I'm sure "raw talent" is beginning to seem like a cop-out to some people.

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01-15-2013, 11:07 AM
  #116
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At least Mike Johnson said Kessel should have been much higher . He had 82 points when a ton of guys ahead of him that are forwards had 40 or so. I'm not saying points are everything but come on,one of 7 guys to score 30+ in the last 4 years and hes 47th? Disappointing but oh well

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01-15-2013, 11:08 AM
  #117
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Originally Posted by GoodCanadianBoy View Post
4/5 of those won a Cup.

Kessel is a complimentary player, not a franchise player.
Huh?

What does winning a cup have to do with your worth as a player? Whoever said Kessel is a franchise player? I'm just listing the people ahead of Kessel on this particular list who I think are definitely not as good as him, and it's not a whole lot of them.

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01-15-2013, 11:10 AM
  #118
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Originally Posted by KuleminFan41 View Post
At least Mike Johnson said Kessel should have been much higher . He had 82 points when a ton of guys ahead of him that are forwards had 40 or so. I'm not saying points are everything but come on,one of 7 guys to score 30+ in the last 4 years and hes 47th? Disappointing but oh well
I still fully believe in "Leaf syndrome", but then, I have apparently been more paranoid than usual recently.

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01-15-2013, 11:12 AM
  #119
KuleminFan41
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Originally Posted by JSBach View Post
I still fully believe in "Leaf syndrome", but then, I have apparently been more paranoid than usual recently.
It has to be. I mean,every year for as long as I can remember Leafs players have been"under appreciated" it seems. Not saying its a conspiracy or whatever but when Sundin was in his prime it didn't seem like many people cared outside of Toronto.

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01-15-2013, 11:13 AM
  #120
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Wasn't LA dying to trade Brown at the Trade Deadline last year? Now because he had a good playoffs all of a sudden he is better then Kessel.
If that were true Brown would be on another team, GM's were beating down the door once Lombardi let it slip he might be open to trading Brown.

Lombardi was not going to deal Brown. It was a wake up call....It worked.

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01-15-2013, 11:15 AM
  #121
bunjay
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Originally Posted by KuleminFan41 View Post
At least Mike Johnson said Kessel should have been much higher . He had 82 points when a ton of guys ahead of him that are forwards had 40 or so. I'm not saying points are everything but come on,one of 7 guys to score 30+ in the last 4 years and hes 47th? Disappointing but oh well
You know this list includes defensemen and goalies, right?

The only forward with under 40 points on the entire list is crosby with 37...in 22 games. Backstrom had 44...in 42 games.

There are only two other forwards with 50 or less points ahead of Kessel. Not even a defenseman on this list has under 40 points.

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Old
01-15-2013, 11:22 AM
  #122
KuleminFan41
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Originally Posted by bunjay View Post
You know this list includes defensemen and goalies, right?

The only forward with under 40 points on the entire list is crosby with 37...in 22 games. Backstrom had 44...in 42 games.

There are only two other forwards with 50 or less points ahead of Kessel. Not even a defenseman on this list has under 40 points.
Yes I'm aware but based on last seasons production why certain forwards ahead of others. Getzlaf,B.Richards,Couture,M.Richards,Brown, were all guys ranked ahead of Kessel yet he had better year during the season.

Whats funny is how they left out guys because they're hurt but don't even know what their own criteria is for picking the best players.I'm not saying Kessel is top 10,15 or 20 but he deserves more appreciation. Players who have bad seasons shouldn't be ranked so high. I highly doubt had Kessel put up 30 goals and 10 assists he wouldn't be on the top 50

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01-15-2013, 11:24 AM
  #123
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Agreed. The only difference is that Nash has played better when surrounded by better players, he's excelled on Team Canada for example, where Kessel has been awful internationally.
That's not even true, though.

Kessel:

Age 22 (OLM): 6gms, 1gls, 2pts (82gms, 13gls, 27pts)
Age 20 (WC): 7gms, 6gls, 10pts (82gms, 70gls, 117pts)
Age 19 (WC): 7gms, 2gls, 7pts (82gms, 23gls, 82pts)
Age 18 (WC): 7gms, 1gls, 2pts (82gms, 12gls, 23pts)
Age 18 (WJC): 7gms, 1gls, 11pts (82gms, 12gls, 129pts)
Age 17 (WJC): 7gms, 4gls, 6pts (82gms, 47gls, 70pts)
Age 17 (WJ18): 6gms, 9gls, 16pts (82gms, 123gls, 219pts)
Age 16 (WJ18): 6gms, 7gls, 10pts (82gms, 96gls, 137pts)


Nash:

Age 26 (WC): 7gms, 2gls, 5pts (82gms, 23gls, 59pts)
Age 25 (OLM): 7gms, 2gls, 5pts (82gms, 23gls, 59pts)
Age 23 (WC): 9gms, 6gls, 13pts (82gms, 55gls, 118pts)
Age 22 (WC): 9gms, 6gls, 11pts (82gms, 55gls, 100pts)
Age 21 (OLM): 6gms, 0gls, 1pts (82gms, 0gls, 14pts)
Age 20 (WC): 9gms, 9gls, 15pts (82gms, 82gls, 137pts)
Age 17 (WJC): 7gms, 1gls, 3pts (82gms, 12gls, 35pts)

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Old
01-15-2013, 11:27 AM
  #124
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Originally Posted by bunjay View Post
Huh?

What does winning a cup have to do with your worth as a player? Whoever said Kessel is a franchise player? I'm just listing the people ahead of Kessel on this particular list who I think are definitely not as good as him, and it's not a whole lot of them.

I never said you said, but I believe a lot of Leaf fans think he is a franchise player due to what the Leafs gave up.


And I don't understand what you mean when you say what does winning a Cup have to do to your worth? I mean really? Player's careers and legends are mostly defined by what they win.

Look at Peyton Manning, arguably the best regular season QB ever, but is 7-9 in the playoffs, therefore isn't considered the best of all time. Or, if we want a hockey example, look at Mats Sundin, at the time everyone complained about him because he never won (hindsight being 20/20, Leaf fans realize what they had).

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Old
01-15-2013, 11:28 AM
  #125
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Originally Posted by Winreims View Post
If anyone EVER says that TSN is biased towards the Leafs, I will slap them.
they are probably roughly neutral if not a bit under neutral
CBC however... hahahaha

i got respect for Bob McKenzie tho and Pierre
but he left

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