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Old
01-15-2013, 11:42 AM
  #26
BinCookin
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This is the one trouble with trade proposals to anyone on HFBoards:

Everyone values their own players too highly, and no one ever wants to give up a player that is good.

Players Toronto thinks are good:

Phil Kessel - Actually good (proven)
Morgan Reilly - Potential to be good
Jake Gardiner - Potential to be good
Reimer - Potential to be good
Dion Phaneuf - Was Good, now who knows
Kadri - Potential to be good

Players Detroit thinks are good

Datsyuk and Zetterberg - Actually good (proven)
Franzen - 25-30G per season player, been proving it for 2.5 years now
Filppula - our next best player, defensively great, offensively been improving.

Honestly every prospect in detroit's system is highly unlikely to be traded because we value them more than anyone else. But the idea that we want to trade Franzen or Filppula is wrong. You would need to overpay a lot (or we CLEARLY) get the better player in the deal.
This pretty much means no one will ever trade for him, and we wont trade him away.

My main point was Liles you got for a 2nd rounder
Filppula is worth much more than that. (Liles is about worth a second rounder)
Filppula for Gardiner is probably more reasonable than for Reilly. But Filppula is 28, at his prime, Gardiner is still an AHL player. Thats why Flip is worth more, even if you think Gardiner WILL be great (he is not yet).
This season will showcase whether Filppula turns into a first liner, or reverts to a second liner. Bottom line he would be an upgrade on bozak. His UFA status matters little, Detroit will resign him, we are just waiting to see how he performs this year so we can keep his salary as low as possible

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Old
01-15-2013, 11:45 AM
  #27
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The amount of people in this thread who are totally uninformed (on both sides) is staggering.

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Old
01-15-2013, 11:56 AM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caribouPINE View Post
lmao this is worse than the original offer!

So the Leafs are going to trade the #5 overall pick in the previous draft, who'se done nothing but increase his value in the few months for..... get this...... a pending UFA who's best 2 seasons are 66 points and 40 points!!?!
You obviously don't watch Detroit play much do you

Flippers is a lot more than his stats indicate. I mean consider that Datsyuk had only 67 points to Kessel 82,does this mean Kessel is miles ahead of Dats? Not likely. Scoring on the wings is always a balanced affair. Flippers would arguably be the 2nd best player on the Leafs.

This would be even if Flippers resigned with the Leafs.

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Old
01-15-2013, 12:15 PM
  #29
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You have to watch Filppula on a regular basis to appreciate how talented he is. Points aren't the only indicator of how good someone is. He's gotten better every season as well so I doubt he slows down this year.

He'll resign for a fair price sometime during the season.

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Old
01-15-2013, 12:17 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lebda Snipes View Post
Thats brutal. Filppula is solid player dont get me wrong. But with the production (and age) we got last year from Gards (and this year in the AHL) and the blue chip status of rielly put thier value above Filppula. I agree Liles is a bit of a low ball.

I would think;

Gunnarson + 2nd (conditional if he re-signs with TO)

for

Filppula.
This is actually worse then the poster who asked Gardiner or o'Rielly for Fil..

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Old
01-15-2013, 12:19 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BinCookin View Post
Gardiner is still an AHL player.
No, actually he's a full time blueliner who was playing in the AHL becasue his contract, this season. He would also be in the leafs top 4 if he's healthy for opening night. Its ok though, you tried.

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Old
01-15-2013, 12:20 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BinCookin View Post
A more realistic offer would be:

Gardiner OR O'Reilly

for

Filppula

(You want our 3rd best forward? Give up your top prospect (realize that neither are GARAUNTEED to be good).

Also I realize BOTH Toronto fans, and Detroit fans would probably dislike this deal.
Just saying this is more "fair value"
Knowing both teams pretty well, I'd make the trade (Gardiner) if Im Toronto and I would think long and hard if I were Detroit. Im not sure Gardiner is what they'd be looking for right now. Pretty sure they want a more established player if they're going to move Filppula. Toronto on the other hand would be absolutely ignorant to not make the trade.

As for Reilly? It just wouldnt happen on either side.

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Old
01-15-2013, 12:23 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BinCookin View Post
A more realistic offer would be:

Gardiner OR O'Reilly

for

Filppula

(You want our 3rd best forward? Give up your top prospect (realize that neither are GARAUNTEED to be good).

Also I realize BOTH Toronto fans, and Detroit fans would probably dislike this deal.
Just saying this is more "fair value"
Quote:
Originally Posted by optimuspaul View Post
Who's O'Reilly?? Leafs would never do that deal. I assume you mean Morgan Reilly

Also OP's proposal is brutal
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBenSF View Post
This poster has come from the future! Nonis offer-sheeted Ryan O'Reilly!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lebda Snipes View Post
Thats brutal. Filppula is solid player dont get me wrong. But with the production (and age) we got last year from Gards (and this year in the AHL) and the blue chip status of rielly put thier value above Filppula. I agree Liles is a bit of a low ball.

I would think;

Gunnarson + 2nd (conditional if he re-signs with TO)

for

Filppula.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TOGuy14 View Post
There is no way that this is a more fair deal.
Quote:
Originally Posted by caribouPINE View Post
lmao this is worse than the original offer!

So the Leafs are going to trade the #5 overall pick in the previous draft, who'se done nothing but increase his value in the few months for..... get this...... a pending UFA who's best 2 seasons are 66 points and 40 points!!?!
Only 2 pages and half of them are ripping the proposal.

but imo I would do Gardiner for Flippula.


Last edited by spiny norman: 01-15-2013 at 03:27 PM. Reason: qdp
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Old
01-15-2013, 12:43 PM
  #34
BinCookin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zetterberg40 View Post
No, actually he's a full time blueliner who was playing in the AHL becasue his contract, this season. He would also be in the leafs top 4 if he's healthy for opening night. Its ok though, you tried.
My mistake, he played 75 games last season, i thought it was more like 30.
Either way, is there a possibility that Komisarek / Franson play better than Gardiner? (yes, there is)

Gardiner just is not that well established yet. I like him, I think he will be a quality defenseman (maybe is still a thought in everyone's mind though)

There is no question though that filppula is better than your "average" second liner. My point is these 2 players are near same trade value NOW.

It is possible that BOTH increase their trade value in the next few years. (Filppula becomes a legit first liner, Gardiner becomes a legit top 2 defenseman - Neither of which has happened yet)

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Old
01-15-2013, 12:50 PM
  #35
BinCookin
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P.S. it seems a perfect trade proposal is not something that everyone agrees with, its more something that both fan bases disagree with LOL

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Old
01-15-2013, 01:05 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lebda Snipes View Post
Thats brutal. Filppula is solid player dont get me wrong. But with the production (and age) we got last year from Gards (and this year in the AHL) and the blue chip status of rielly put thier value above Filppula. I agree Liles is a bit of a low ball.

I would think;

Gunnarson + 2nd (conditional if he re-signs with TO)

for

Filppula.
That is something I could possible get behind with a little tweaking, I've only seen Gunnarson play once so I'm not sure how good he really is (the way most leaf fans talk about him it would seem he's the Robin to Phanuef's Batman of the leafs).

As for the original trade; the wings have ZERO need for another puck moving dman. Right now we only have 1 Defensive dman on the team, everyone else is either a PMD or an offensive dman. I don't even think I'd trade Filppula for Liles if we did need a PMD as Liles isn't very effective in his own zone.

As of right now Filppula fills a role for the wings that nobody else on the team can, he can either be a top 6 winger or if injuries roll around play in a 3C role. Value wise imo it's Filppula >> Liles and a 3rd doesn't make up the difference.

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Old
01-15-2013, 01:20 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BinCookin View Post
A more realistic offer would be:

Gardiner OR O'Reilly

for

Filppula

(You want our 3rd best forward? Give up your top prospect (realize that neither are GARAUNTEED to be good).

Also I realize BOTH Toronto fans, and Detroit fans would probably dislike this deal.
Just saying this is more "fair value"
Good one dude!!!! who's o'reilly

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Old
01-15-2013, 02:42 PM
  #38
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Why do the Red Wings need a left-handed shooting offensive defenseman?

Answer: They don't

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Old
01-15-2013, 03:12 PM
  #39
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Gardiner for Filppula? I've seen some bad proposals, but this actually made me laugh out loud when i saw it.

Ok, let's reverse this, Brenden Smith for Nikolai Kulemin. Does that sound fair?

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Old
01-15-2013, 03:34 PM
  #40
BinCookin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MakeTheIronSing View Post
Gardiner for Filppula? I've seen some bad proposals, but this actually made me laugh out loud when i saw it.

Ok, let's reverse this, Brenden Smith for Nikolai Kulemin. Does that sound fair?
I was altering the original post.

The original post is Liles +3rd for Filppula.

The equivalent is more like Dan Cleary for Lupol or Grabovski.

(I.E. if Cleary or Liles just retired right now... no one would really care)
(Filppula and Lupol/Grabovski are both key contributors)

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Old
01-15-2013, 03:45 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MakeTheIronSing View Post
Gardiner for Filppula? I've seen some bad proposals, but this actually made me laugh out loud when i saw it.

Ok, let's reverse this, Brenden Smith for Nikolai Kulemin. Does that sound fair?
If you really think Filppula for Gardiner is that bad of a deal then you need lots of . Filppula actually fits a need for Toronto, Kulemin does not fit a need for Detroit so there is a huge flaw in you're terrible logic already, lets also Forget that Filppula just scored 66 points and Kulemin 28, clearly they must have similar value.

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Old
01-15-2013, 03:48 PM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BinCookin View Post
My mistake, he played 75 games last season, i thought it was more like 30.
Either way, is there a possibility that Komisarek / Franson play better than Gardiner? (yes, there is)

Gardiner just is not that well established yet. I like him, I think he will be a quality defenseman (maybe is still a thought in everyone's mind though)

There is no question though that filppula is better than your "average" second liner. My point is these 2 players are near same trade value NOW.

It is possible that BOTH increase their trade value in the next few years. (Filppula becomes a legit first liner, Gardiner becomes a legit top 2 defenseman - Neither of which has happened yet)
People who have clearly never watched a single Toronto Maple Leafs game probably shouldn't be making such bold statements on Leaf players.

Komisarek is pretty much a bust through and through who would have been sent to the AHL if it were not for Burke loyalty / his big contract

Franson is a great offensive weapon with a shot, but there is no way in any lifetime he will ever be as complete as Gardiner (and that is after he has only had one year in the league)

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Old
01-15-2013, 03:56 PM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MakeTheIronSing View Post
Gardiner for Filppula? I've seen some bad proposals, but this actually made me laugh out loud when i saw it.

Ok, let's reverse this, Brenden Smith for Nikolai Kulemin. Does that sound fair?
The only problem here is that Filppula is far better than Kulemin.

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Old
01-15-2013, 03:57 PM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BinCookin View Post
My mistake, he played 75 games last season, i thought it was more like 30.
Either way, is there a possibility that Komisarek / Franson play better than Gardiner? (yes, there is)

Gardiner just is not that well established yet. I like him, I think he will be a quality defenseman (maybe is still a thought in everyone's mind though)

There is no question though that filppula is better than your "average" second liner. My point is these 2 players are near same trade value NOW.

It is possible that BOTH increase their trade value in the next few years. (Filppula becomes a legit first liner, Gardiner becomes a legit top 2 defenseman - Neither of which has happened yet)
LOL i've read all of your posts in this proposal and it's just too funny how much you overvalue your players. You have never watched a Toronto Maple Leafs game in your life so stop making assumptions like Gardiner is an AHLer. Hilarious.

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Old
01-15-2013, 04:02 PM
  #45
BinCookin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TOGuy14 View Post
People who have clearly never watched a single Toronto Maple Leafs game probably shouldn't be making such bold statements on Leaf players.

Komisarek is pretty much a bust through and through who would have been sent to the AHL if it were not for Burke loyalty / his big contract

Franson is a great offensive weapon with a shot, but there is no way in any lifetime he will ever be as complete as Gardiner (and that is after he has only had one year in the league)
The way you speak of Gardiner reminds me alot of how you guys used to speak of L. Schenn. I am just saying TO fans judge too quickly. I honestly hope Gardiner becomes very good. But there is a chance he does not have as good a season next year. Alternatively I think L. Schenn is not as bad as you thought he was when you dumped him, and he will have a better season in Phi.

These KIDS, are not yet near their prime. The point is if you DO NOT want to trade young players, then the best players on your team are Gardiner, Reilly, Aulie and Kadri. I appreciate the perspective you do not want to trade these players as they all may prove to be great. I personally would not trade them for anything. I like the idea of Toronto trading anyone 28+ for anyone 23 and under as a constant system to "rebuild on the fly".

My point is not that I think Gardiner is bad. He is good
I think you do not know how good Filpulla is. He is MUCH MUCH better than MacArthur/Grabo or Kuli. He is better than lupol because he is defensively minded (67pts vs 66pts is a wash). And he is better than Bozak clearly. Filpulla would be the 2nd best player on your team (of forwards). I am just saying you guys can not offer stuff like (30+ aged players even if they can still play for red wings under 30) Shyte, we barely have any of them under 30 LOL LOL


Last edited by BinCookin: 01-15-2013 at 04:08 PM.
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Old
01-15-2013, 06:46 PM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BinCookin View Post
The way you speak of Gardiner reminds me alot of how you guys used to speak of L. Schenn. I am just saying TO fans judge too quickly. I honestly hope Gardiner becomes very good. But there is a chance he does not have as good a season next year. Alternatively I think L. Schenn is not as bad as you thought he was when you dumped him, and he will have a better season in Phi.

These KIDS, are not yet near their prime. The point is if you DO NOT want to trade young players, then the best players on your team are Gardiner, Reilly, Aulie and Kadri. I appreciate the perspective you do not want to trade these players as they all may prove to be great. I personally would not trade them for anything. I like the idea of Toronto trading anyone 28+ for anyone 23 and under as a constant system to "rebuild on the fly".

My point is not that I think Gardiner is bad. He is good
I think you do not know how good Filpulla is. He is MUCH MUCH better than MacArthur/Grabo or Kuli. He is better than lupol because he is defensively minded (67pts vs 66pts is a wash). And he is better than Bozak clearly. Filpulla would be the 2nd best player on your team (of forwards). I am just saying you guys can not offer stuff like (30+ aged players even if they can still play for red wings under 30) Shyte, we barely have any of them under 30 LOL LOL
Lol just no.

Gardiner has a lot of developing to do that is for sure, but for you to say that our 6/7 d-men could outperform him this year is just silly.

That is like me saying there is a chance Darren Helm could outperform Zetterberg this year. In our case there may be d-men that do better than Gardiner this year, but Komisarek and Franson won't be the ones who potentially do it.

As for Schenn I said years ago when I saw him play that he didn't have the foot speed to be a top pairing D, and he lived up to my expectations. He can become an excellent #3 though if he works at it, maybe an average #2

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Old
01-15-2013, 07:05 PM
  #47
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I bet Gardiner will break out of the AHL this year and have a better rookie season than Morgan O'Reilly...

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Old
01-15-2013, 07:16 PM
  #48
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What a trainwreck this thread is.

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Old
01-16-2013, 12:26 PM
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BinCookin View Post
My mistake, he played 75 games last season, i thought it was more like 30.
Either way, is there a possibility that Komisarek / Franson play better than Gardiner? (yes, there is)

Gardiner just is not that well established yet. I like him, I think he will be a quality defenseman (maybe is still a thought in everyone's mind though)

There is no question though that filppula is better than your "average" second liner. My point is these 2 players are near same trade value NOW.

It is possible that BOTH increase their trade value in the next few years. (Filppula becomes a legit first liner, Gardiner becomes a legit top 2 defenseman - Neither of which has happened yet)
1) Zero chance either of them play better then Gardiner, unless he's still concussion/not healthy. A healthy Gardiner and its not even close. I think your analysis is still way off.

2. He's not established? I think playing 70 games and then would 100% be on opening night roster without even blinking if he was healthy pretty much bonafieds establishment. Your arguing this and then previously mentioning someone like Komisarek who has been riding the pine for 1-2 years could play better? Logic makes no sense whatsoever. Come on guy.

I am a Wing fan and any logical, normal thinking one will say he's a very average second line centerman. If he can notch a 60 point pace this year with Franzen and show consistency, then ill agree but as of right now. Nope.

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01-16-2013, 12:29 PM
  #50
Phion Keneuf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BinCookin View Post
A more realistic offer would be:

Gardiner OR O'Reilly

for

Filppula

(You want our 3rd best forward? Give up your top prospect (realize that neither are GARAUNTEED to be good).

Also I realize BOTH Toronto fans, and Detroit fans would probably dislike this deal.
Just saying this is more "fair value"
Lol

Smith for MacArthur ?

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