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The Business of Hockey Discuss the financial and business aspects of the NHL. Topics may include the CBA, work stoppages, broadcast contracts, franchise sales, NHL revenues, relocation and expansion.

Relocation options post-expansion?

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Old
01-14-2013, 01:42 AM
  #1
Rangerboy030
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Relocation options post-expansion?

So with the scattered chatter about the NHL potentially expanding by 2 teams into Quebec, Seattle and/or Markham/GTA, what would this bode for the (seemingly) inevitable relocation of Phoenix?

Assuming that Seattle and Quebec get teams, what are the potential destinations for Phoenix? Would they simply move to the GTA, or are there other options? Milwaukee? Portland? Houston?

What are your guys' opinions on such a situation?

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01-14-2013, 04:14 AM
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I think the NHL will hold off on adding teams until they sort out the money losing teams they already have. Obviously suggesting some teams may move will get my post deleted very quickly. But we know some teams are losing money and they have put up a good fight and they may look for new homes.

We are maybe 3 to 4 years away from knowing what is what with new CBA, but I think that we will see two teams moved before any more expansion

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01-14-2013, 04:41 AM
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madhi19
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Originally Posted by jumptheshark View Post
I think the NHL will hold off on adding teams until they sort out the money losing teams they already have. Obviously suggesting some teams may move will get my post deleted very quickly. But we know some teams are losing money and they have put up a good fight and they may look for new homes.

We are maybe 3 to 4 years away from knowing what is what with new CBA, but I think that we will see two teams moved before any more expansion
The problem is why allow a team to move and only cash a small relocation fee when you can score a way bigger expansion fee. On the other hand it the whole Dutch boy who plugs a dike with his finger story. What happen if the NHL ran out of fingers to plug holes?

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01-14-2013, 04:55 AM
  #4
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Originally Posted by madhi19 View Post
The problem is why allow a team to move and only cash a small relocation fee when you can score a way bigger expansion fee. On the other hand it the whole Dutch boy who plugs a dike with his finger story. What happen if the NHL ran out of fingers to plug holes?
I can not mention the teams that we all know are losing money year after year, because their fan bases will get mad, we will call one team "team x"

Team X has had several good runs in the playoffs and have had very competitive teams, but they have done little improvement at the gate and their owners and the nhl have spent a lot of time and effort trying to build a strong fan base, they have a small one and it is loyal. But they play in an area where NFL and collage sports and auto racing is king and there is only so much money in the area that is available to sports. The nhl and especially the owners have put in a good time, effort and money in trying to make it a go in this city. This team loses money and has trouble selling out even one they have a better then average team. The have some very passionate fans, but the majority of the people where they play have shown they have little interest in the game.

The NHL and the NHLPA are now partners and when teams lose money it affects the NHLPA %-- Quebec is a hockey market and they could be like the jets heading back to the Peg raises revenue. The problem is quebec wasnt just that the Nords sucked, they had nad ownership and that is what killed them.

Using your analagy about the dam, the NHL and NHLPA need to fix that damn before expanding it and causing more holes to appear.

Ask anyone in construction, if you expand off of a bad buidling base, you will only cause bigger problems then the ones you have

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01-14-2013, 09:18 AM
  #5
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Quebec and golden horseshoe deserve teams before anyone. No American teams will have the financial success that those two Canadian teams have aside from the first few novelty seasons.
Expansion is out of the question. There are enough teams not making money. Move a couple to Canada.
I just don't get why the NHL doesn't want to give up on Phoenix. It pisses me off of a fan in a market where I have to spend a weeks paycheck to get my kid to a game.

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01-14-2013, 09:34 AM
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A 40 team league is my opinion.


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01-14-2013, 09:40 AM
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jigglysquishy
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Why do people want a 40 team league? Its just that much more unlikely that your team lacks a championship or star players

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01-14-2013, 09:51 AM
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I think its because people just like drawing maps.

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01-14-2013, 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by DyerMaker66 View Post
A 40 team league is my opinion.

Houston and Seattle maybe. All the other Outside of gta and quebec are lol. What's the m in Ontario? Or is that Michigan. Lol.
Saskatchewan lol. Vegas salt lake. People need to look at the current state of the NHL before they even consider more teams in the USA. Especially ones like Vegas Kansas city and salt lake.

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01-14-2013, 10:37 AM
  #10
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Well, when it comes to relocation, it's honestly Phoenix or bust for at least the next 5 years, possibly more, so that narrows it down significantly. Not to mention the simple fact that the Yotes situation will almost assuredly be settled, for better or worse (depending on who you ask), before an expansion takes place.

As for potential landing spots for expansion/relocation franchises, here're my two cents....

Seattle and Quebec City are head and shoulders above everyone else. One is a former NHL market with everything you could want, a built in fanbase, a new arena on the horizon, and a very wealthy potential ownership group with broadcasting capabilities already in place; while the other is a promising up and coming market, with a long history of junior hockey, in a geographic area untapped by the NHL, in the advanced stages of a new arena development, an interested owner, and home to a plethora of appealing corporate sponsorship potential. If we're talking about a two team expansion and no relocation, it'll almost assuredly be Seattle and Quebec City leading the charge.

Now, if it's more than two (especially if it's three with two expansion teams and a relocation team), it gets interesting. Houston's obviously brought up often, and for obvious reasons. HUUUUUUUGE market, HUUUUUUGE corporate sponsorship potential, a history of minor league hockey, and a ready arena all make Houston a very attractive option. That being said, they're also lacking an obvious owner, as Les Alexander doesn't seem interested. Houston will not be in the running for a relocation team, as they don't have an ownership group in place. However, in the event of an expansion process, especially a multiyear one, then that market will likely have enough time to cobble together an ownership consortium to make them one of the more likely candidates.

Portland has issues, not the least of which is that if they got an NHL team they'd be the smallest market with both NBA and NHL teams, but that doesn't matter. Only thing that matters is if Paul Allen's interested. If he wants a team, Portland will get a team. If he isn't interested, then they won't. That simple.

As for other American markets.... not happening. Kansas City is in the same boat as Houston, but significantly smaller and even less likely to find owners. Las Vegas has been hammered by the economic downturn, all leagues are wary at sports gambling, and they have no arena in place. OKC and Salt Lake City are both likely too small for an NHL team on top of an NBA team (though SLC's a place to look if we're talking 2040-50 or so). Milwaukee and Indianapolis are already very oversaturated sports markets, so yet another pro team wouldn't fly in either. Hampton Roads doesn't have an arena, plus it's not a very wealthy or corporate heavy market. And Hartford needs a new arena, and that doesn't seem anywhere near on the horizon.

So, in the U.S., the options really are Seattle, Houston, and Portland, and that's it.

As for other Canadian markets, there's really only two.... GTA or Hamilton. GTA took a big hit as it looks like the Markham arena ain't happening, so they don't have a viable place to even consider. Not to mention that an indemnity to the Leafs would assuredly be astronomical. And Hamilton, despite what supporters may say, needs a lot of refurbishments to their arena, the league would probably prefer a new barn, they just flat out hate the only person that tried to put a team there, and there'd be opposition from Toronto and Buffalo to it in the form of them rallying BoG votes to other expansion targets instead. And Saksatoon's too small. Only way they get a team any time soon is if literally nobody else is interested, a team is on the verge of folding, and the NHL wants to avoid contraction.

In other words, Quebec City or bust for Canada right now.

TL;DNR version..... Quebec City, Seattle, Houston, and Portland. Those will be the next markets with teams, almost assuredly.


Last edited by No Fun Shogun: 01-14-2013 at 10:46 AM.
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Old
01-14-2013, 12:03 PM
  #11
MoreOrr
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jigglysquishy View Post
Why do people want a 40 team league? Its just that much more unlikely that your team lacks a championship or star players
I want only a 36-team League, by 2022. 6 Divisions of 6. 1/4 Canadian (27 US locations, still less than all the other 4 major leagues). The League can stop at that, I wouldn't want it to be larger.

Or just stay at 30 teams, would be fine also.

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01-14-2013, 12:13 PM
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32 is fine. 40 is a bit absurd

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01-14-2013, 01:13 PM
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Move Phoenix to Seattle.
Move Columbus to Quebec.

North East
OTT
TOR
MTL
QUE
BUF

Atlantic
BOS
NYR
PHI
NJD
NYI

South East
FLA
TBL
CAR
WAS
PIT

Central
DET
CHI
STL
MIN
NAS

Mountain
WIN
CAL
EDM
COL
VAN

Pacific
SEA
LAK
ANA
SJS
DAL

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01-14-2013, 01:28 PM
  #14
MoreOrr
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Originally Posted by Flyerfan808 View Post
Move Phoenix to Seattle.
Move Columbus to Quebec.

North East
OTT
TOR
MTL
QUE
BUF

Atlantic
BOS
NYR
PHI
NJD
NYI

South East
FLA
TBL
CAR
WAS
PIT

Central
DET
CHI
STL
MIN
NAS

Mountain
WIN
CAL
EDM
COL
VAN

Pacific
SEA
LAK
ANA
SJS
DAL
Yep, Colorado would just love that. Not to mention that relocating the Blue Jackets before seeing how the fans there will respond to a team that actually make the Playoffs a couple of Seasons in a row,... well, not an idea I'm at all in favor of.

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01-14-2013, 01:43 PM
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No Fun Shogun
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Plus, the BJs aren't a relocation risk right now, as they got a new arena deal that'll hopefully help their bottom line. They're not on the chopping block now. In 5-10 years, if they still suck and are still hemorrhaging money? Maybe, but for this conversation they're not moving.

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01-14-2013, 02:47 PM
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Originally Posted by DyerMaker66 View Post
A 40 team league is my opinion.

You lost me at Saskatoon.

Half the people in this forum would be suiting up in a 40 team league.

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01-14-2013, 03:54 PM
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DyerMaker66
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Originally Posted by Puckclektr View Post
Houston and Seattle maybe. All the other Outside of gta and quebec are lol. What's the m in Ontario? Or is that Michigan. Lol.
Saskatchewan lol. Vegas salt lake. People need to look at the current state of the NHL before they even consider more teams in the USA. Especially ones like Vegas Kansas city and salt lake.
Mississauga.

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01-14-2013, 04:12 PM
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jigglysquishy View Post
Why do people want a 40 team league? Its just that much more unlikely that your team lacks a championship or star players
Because multiples of 4 work-out best and 40 teams make more revenue than 36 teams.
Quote:
Originally Posted by saskganesh View Post
I think its because people just like drawing maps.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MoreOrr View Post
I want only a 36-team League, by 2022. 6 Divisions of 6. 1/4 Canadian (27 US locations, still less than all the other 4 major leagues). The League can stop at that, I wouldn't want it to be larger.

Or just stay at 30 teams, would be fine also.
Wouldn't 4 Divisions of 8 (or 8 of 4) work-out better?

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01-14-2013, 08:32 PM
  #19
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If I was an owner I'd oppose further expansion. People look at the one time expansion fees as a big deal, but over a few years $7 to $10 million in expansion revenue is really just a drop in the bucket. I don't think the fees make up for the escalation of salaries due to increased demand for players. I don't think the increased demand for playoff spots is palatable either. 30 team is enoughs. The NHL just needs to tweak a few markets.

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01-15-2013, 12:00 PM
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Phoenix - Quebec City
Columbus - Hamilton
Florida - Seattle
Expansion - Houston
Expansion - Hartford \ Kansas City

All of this will happen within the next 10 years .

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01-15-2013, 12:07 PM
  #21
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Originally Posted by No Fun Shogun View Post
Plus, the BJs aren't a relocation risk right now, as they got a new arena deal that'll hopefully help their bottom line. They're not on the chopping block now. In 5-10 years, if they still suck and are still hemorrhaging money? Maybe, but for this conversation they're not moving.
This.

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01-15-2013, 12:12 PM
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If I was an owner I'd oppose further expansion. People look at the one time expansion fees as a big deal, but over a few years $7 to $10 million in expansion revenue is really just a drop in the bucket. I don't think the fees make up for the escalation of salaries due to increased demand for players. I don't think the increased demand for playoff spots is palatable either. 30 team is enoughs. The NHL just needs to tweak a few markets.
Yes some players salaries will get bumped up... however salaries in general are limited to 50% of league HRR. As long as each club is able to be close to the league average for revenue then they should be fine.

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01-15-2013, 12:16 PM
  #23
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Originally Posted by JMROWE View Post
Phoenix - Quebec City
Columbus - Hamilton
Florida - Seattle
Expansion - Houston
Expansion - Hartford \ Kansas City

All of this will happen within the next 10 years .
Florida and Columbus aren't going anywhere. Stop kidding yourself.

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01-15-2013, 12:16 PM
  #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMROWE View Post
Phoenix - Quebec City
Columbus - Hamilton
Florida - Seattle
Expansion - Houston
Expansion - Hartford \ Kansas City

All of this will happen within the next 10 years .
I don't see it, Phoenix moving is a given but I think Florida will stabilize as a market now that they are icing a young skilled team. Same for Columbus.

I see a 32 team league with Phoenix moving to either Quebec or Seattle.
Then Qubec/Seattle (whoever doesn't get the coyotes) an expansion team
and then Houston/Hartford/GTA get an expansion team and we settle comfortably with even 16 team conferences in a 32 team league.

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01-15-2013, 12:21 PM
  #25
No Fun Shogun
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMROWE View Post
Phoenix - Quebec City
Columbus - Hamilton
Florida - Seattle
Expansion - Houston
Expansion - Hartford \ Kansas City

All of this will happen within the next 10 years .
Columbus and Florida aren't moving, the NHL's not interested in Hamilton based on everything they've done in the past decade (plus they clearly don't like Copps), Hartford needs a new arena, and Kansas City has, so far, shown no potential for forming an ownership group (which, to be fair, is also true of Houston, but I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt due to their shear size that they'd be able to cobble together an ownership consortium of local businessmen in an expansion was announced).

Yotes are still up in the air, and I do agree that Quebec City, Seattle, and Houston are probably the frontrunners, as is Portland if Paul Allen's involved, but not so much on the other teams/markets. The GTA or Hamilton will probably get a team eventually (but not both), but I honestly don't see it happening in the next decade when we're really juggling only 2-3 possible expansion/relocation options total.

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