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Old
01-15-2013, 11:17 AM
  #201
Stu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Billy6 View Post
A more compelling argument that Kessel isn't a player that will lead the Leafs to the Cup? I don't need to say anything more. Just look at his history and watch the Leafs play this year.

Eventually you all will realize that Kessel is not suited to be the player that the Leafs build their team around.

I'll say it one more time: when a one dimensional player that hasn't thrown a single hit, been in one fight, is a severe defensive liability, got dumped by the team that drafted him, and is named Phil Kessel, is your best player you are not going to win the Stanley Cup.

I'm done with this thread, you guys can have the final word.
Implying:

Kessel will be our best player when (and if) we start competing
That Kessel is the player we build around
that having pure snipers detracts from the team
that kessel is THAT one-dimensional, even when his defensive play improved massively last season and has been for a while
that players "dumped" by the team that drafted them can't be the best player on stanley cup winning teams
that he has bad history, even with him being prolific every year scoring with a top line that needs improvement

Loosen your helmet and take off the hate-tinted spectacles. Yes, our fanbase has craved success - what fanbase doesn't? But this perpetuated argument that it is the fans that are so impatient it is almost forcing the hand of management to make rash trades is, for me, the true showing of someone who has ZERO idea of what they are talking about and has been reading Dave Naylor et al "journalism" regarding the Leafs and believing whatever negative press they can satiate their hate-feeding-frenzy with. We have been patient for many years and many of us would be ECSTATIC to:

1) Keep Kessel
2) Develop young players and obtain players through the draft
3) See our young guys developed into good NHL players

You also need to remember that there is more than one way to skin a cat and that the revered "Pittsburgh" model has not been followed by every cup winner.

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01-15-2013, 11:56 AM
  #202
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Love HF.

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Old
01-15-2013, 12:39 PM
  #203
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Kessel may be the worst player in the league to trade for. Even if it improves the team Leafs would be hesitant to do it unless the return is greater than Seguin and Hamilton, which it never will be. It's psychological - people are programmed to hoard anything until they get back equal value for it. It's why people who bought netflix at 300 are still holding onto it, hoping it goes back up rather than taking the money out and putting it into something that actually will go up like FIO. Trading Kessel for less than what he originally went would cement the original trade as a loss, and that is a show stopper for the human brain.

IRL, his on ice value to a team is in the same area as Alex Semin or Jeff Carter, yet he's reflexively considered far more valuable than either.

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01-15-2013, 01:07 PM
  #204
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Originally Posted by Morgan Gardiner View Post
Nashville was the "other team" when Boston was looking to unload Phil.

If he goes there, they'll lock him up. David Poile has a good relationship with Kessel (USA Hockey).
Except Phil Kessel wasn't going to sign in Nashville and stopped the trade there when Boston was looking to move him. Relationship or not, he signed in Toronto for the money not the relationships and good feelings.

He will do the same in a year and a half. Everything about the history of Phil Kessel from his ELC contract to his RFA contract sugggest the money is the main factor. It always will be.

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01-15-2013, 01:07 PM
  #205
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Originally Posted by iPunch View Post
I might agree with you if every team was only allowed a single player to build around.

This soft, one dimensional, dumped player says hello.

I wonder how much better he could have been if he fought and threw hits.
I know that I said that I was done with this thread but I saw this post and I couldn't help myself.

First of all Kessel is not as good as Brett Hull was.

Secondly, you are proving my point by this post. Hull only won the Stanley Cup when he played for a Red Wings team that also had Yzerman, Fedorov, Shanahan, Hasek, Robitaille, Lidstrom, etc. I have no doubt that Kessel could be a contributing member to a Stanley Cup winning team as a piece of that team, but if he is your number one option you are not going to win.

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01-15-2013, 01:18 PM
  #206
Coach Parker
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Originally Posted by RogerRoeper View Post
Why do people think Phil is going to Minnesota just because he was born there? They don't have the money to sign him after signing Suter/Parise. They have some really nice prospects they'll have to sign up in the future.

They're not going to replace Heatley's deal with Phil's. They have other concerns.
He's not from there, he's from Wisconsin. He actually took a lot of heat in Madison for going to play for Minnesota as they were the hated rivals. Think of it like a French-Canadian from Montreal choosing to sign with the Leafs over the Canadiens when he is a UFA.

Phil will sign where the money is the most. It's that simple and there is no reason to suggest that Toronto wouldn't be that team.

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01-15-2013, 01:24 PM
  #207
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So what do you suggest the Leafs should do with Kessel? He's got year and half then he's a UFA which isn't too appealing and teams wont just trade impact roster players/top prospects for a rental. Teams running for the Cup could possibly have an interest in Kessel but they to will only include prospects and a late 1st round pick which again is a gamble taking another 3-4 years to find out if that player turns out to be equally good as Phil if not better. Leafs would be better getting that "1C" and get Kessel resigned to another contract.

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01-15-2013, 01:28 PM
  #208
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chungo View Post
A quick question:

Trade deadline scenario:

Toronto trades:
- Kessel
- 1st
- Biggs (or similar value)
- Bozak (or similar value)

to Anaheim for
- Getzalf
- Perry

Lets just start off here for conversation... What needs to be added/taken away, do conditions have to put in place, etc.
Take out Biggs, Bozak and Perry. Turn the 1st into a mid-prospect on the Anaheim side. It's basically Getzlaf for Kessel. We'd all agree that Perry is better than Kessel and Kessel is right there slightly above Getzlaf but that seems to change every season.

I for one would love to see Getzlaf for Kessel and see what Getzlaf and JVR could do together on the first line in Toronto.

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01-15-2013, 01:33 PM
  #209
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach Parker View Post
Take out Biggs, Bozak and Perry. Turn the 1st into a mid-prospect on the Anaheim side. It's basically Getzlaf for Kessel. We'd all agree that Perry is better than Kessel and Kessel is right there slightly above Getzlaf but that seems to change every season.

I for one would love to see Getzlaf for Kessel and see what Getzlaf and JVR could do together on the first line in Toronto.
That might be a good trade, but just wondering what it would take to get both of them in Toronto. Anaheim gets a huge peice back in Kessel and if signed Toronto gets a 1st line Centre and a 1st line RW.

JVR - Getzlaf - Perry combo would look amazing.

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01-15-2013, 01:40 PM
  #210
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chungo View Post
That might be a good trade, but just wondering what it would take to get both of them in Toronto. Anaheim gets a huge peice back in Kessel and if signed Toronto gets a 1st line Centre and a 1st line RW.

JVR - Getzlaf - Perry combo would look amazing.
Trades liek that simply don't exist in the NHL. To get to players of that calibre would gut the team and that isn't what Toronto needs.

To Toronto:

C Ryan Getzlaf
3rd Round Pick / Mid-Level Prospect

To Anaheim:

RW Phil Kessel

Getzlaf is exactly what Toronto needs down the middle for the next decade. Young cup-winning/Olypmic gold centerman who has been a captain for years. Resign him for 8 years and develop chemistry between him and JVR.

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01-15-2013, 01:40 PM
  #211
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Billy6 View Post
I know that I said that I was done with this thread but I saw this post and I couldn't help myself.

First of all Kessel is not as good as Brett Hull was.

Secondly, you are proving my point by this post. Hull only won the Stanley Cup when he played for a Red Wings team that also had Yzerman, Fedorov, Shanahan, Hasek, Robitaille, Lidstrom, etc. I have no doubt that Kessel could be a contributing member to a Stanley Cup winning team as a piece of that team, but if he is your number one option you are not going to win.
You again. Please explain "number one option". For what exactly? If there is one thing that makes me laugh about this board it is the amount of pointless hyperbole arguments. We don't NEED to trade Kessel to improve our team. I never liked the Kessel trade and if you go back to when it was made, a very common sentiment was that it was a good player we got back, but a high price - yes this is coming from the 'stupid' fans that have no patience when it comes to a rebuild, even though we have been crying out for one for years. But please don't let logic, truth and reasoning get in the way of your rhetoric, or the door hit you on the way out.

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01-15-2013, 01:47 PM
  #212
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach Parker View Post
Trades liek that simply don't exist in the NHL. To get to players of that calibre would gut the team and that isn't what Toronto needs.

To Toronto:

C Ryan Getzlaf
3rd Round Pick / Mid-Level Prospect

To Anaheim:

RW Phil Kessel

Getzlaf is exactly what Toronto needs down the middle for the next decade. Young cup-winning/Olypmic gold centerman who has been a captain for years. Resign him for 8 years and develop chemistry between him and JVR.
I understand where you are coming from, but I think the Leafs have the prospects in place and a good working relationship with Anaheim to pull this off.

Let's look at this Hypothetically:

To Toronto:
C - Ryan Getzlaf
RW - Cory Perry

To Anaheim
RW - Phil Kessel
C/W - Nazem Kadri
RW - Clarke MacArthur
1st round pick

This would be contigent obviously on a "sign and trade" format, that would bolster up the trade value for the Ducks to get legitimate peices for the future and the present. The Leafs lose out on players that can be seen as replaceable by either this trade, prospects or the UFA market next year. Usually when a team waits for the UFA market to open, these rental players are already signed by the teams that pick them up.

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01-15-2013, 01:58 PM
  #213
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chungo View Post
I understand where you are coming from, but I think the Leafs have the prospects in place and a good working relationship with Anaheim to pull this off.

Let's look at this Hypothetically:

To Toronto:
C - Ryan Getzlaf
RW - Cory Perry

To Anaheim
RW - Phil Kessel
C/W - Nazem Kadri
RW - Clarke MacArthur
1st round pick

This would be contigent obviously on a "sign and trade" format, that would bolster up the trade value for the Ducks to get legitimate peices for the future and the present. The Leafs lose out on players that can be seen as replaceable by either this trade, prospects or the UFA market next year. Usually when a team waits for the UFA market to open, these rental players are already signed by the teams that pick them up.
Why on EARTH, as a bottom feeder team, are we giving up our best goalscorer/point producer, a prospect we have been working with for years, a 1st round pick and a decent 2nd liner for 2 rentals? We either pick these guys up in free agency or move along. We need to focus having the pieces in place at the end of next season and show REAL signs of improvement / making the playoffs to give incentive to guys like Kessel to sign with us.

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01-15-2013, 02:02 PM
  #214
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Originally Posted by Stu View Post
Why on EARTH, as a bottom feeder team, are we giving up our best goalscorer/point producer, a prospect we have been working with for years, a 1st round pick and a decent 2nd liner for 2 rentals? We either pick these guys up in free agency or move along. We need to focus having the pieces in place at the end of next season and show REAL signs of improvement / making the playoffs to give incentive to guys like Kessel to sign with us.
I put in the post "sign and trade" and I understand where you are coming from, but Perry alone would demand Kadri, 1st and MacArthur... Kessel for Getzlaf would be straight up.

Just saw on other boards... Looks like this wouldn't go over well for getting Getzlaf from Anaheim since the fans are 90-95% convinced he is resigning anyway.

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01-15-2013, 02:06 PM
  #215
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Originally Posted by InfinityIggy View Post
I imagine if the Leafs move Kessel they are rebuilding? Ugh anyway I dunno heres an offer:

1st
Jankowski
Hudler

For

Kessel
Jankowski is such a great prospect he's worth Kessel on his own.

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01-15-2013, 02:08 PM
  #216
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chungo View Post
I put in the post "sign and trade" and I understand where you are coming from, but Perry alone would demand Kadri, 1st and MacArthur... Kessel for Getzlaf would be straight up.

Just saw on other boards... Looks like this wouldn't go over well for getting Getzlaf from Anaheim since the fans are 90-95% convinced he is resigning anyway.
It just makes no sense for either team. Getzlaf isn't going anywhere and we have nothing to offer Perry. I would much prefer we explore every avenue of acquiring a #1 centre and #1 goalie somehow then take it from there.

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01-15-2013, 02:11 PM
  #217
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chungo View Post
I understand where you are coming from, but I think the Leafs have the prospects in place and a good working relationship with Anaheim to pull this off.

Let's look at this Hypothetically:

To Toronto:
C - Ryan Getzlaf
RW - Cory Perry

To Anaheim
RW - Phil Kessel
C/W - Nazem Kadri
RW - Clarke MacArthur
1st round pick

This would be contigent obviously on a "sign and trade" format, that would bolster up the trade value for the Ducks to get legitimate peices for the future and the present. The Leafs lose out on players that can be seen as replaceable by either this trade, prospects or the UFA market next year. Usually when a team waits for the UFA market to open, these rental players are already signed by the teams that pick them up.
Unless Kessel is signed to the team friendliest 8 year contract in the world and Kadri breaks out in a big way this is terrible for Anaheim. They'd just be reduced to trading Kessel again next year. They're better off trading Getzlaf and Perry separately for futures.

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01-15-2013, 02:16 PM
  #218
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Rangers could give an 1st round pick for Kessel no doubt

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01-15-2013, 02:22 PM
  #219
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It may have already been asked but what about Jamie Benn? Realistically, who would have to give up something else and /or how much else?


Last edited by poppadubb: 01-15-2013 at 02:23 PM. Reason: mispell
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01-15-2013, 02:30 PM
  #220
Phion Keneuf
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Originally Posted by toewsintangibles View Post
Rangers could give an 1st round pick for Kessel no doubt
Um sure?

Pretty sure every team that has a first would as well...

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01-15-2013, 02:37 PM
  #221
Coach Parker
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Originally Posted by Stu View Post
It just makes no sense for either team. Getzlaf isn't going anywhere and we have nothing to offer Perry. I would much prefer we explore every avenue of acquiring a #1 centre and #1 goalie somehow then take it from there.
Why is Getzlaf going nowhere again? During last season, it was the exact opposite. I don't know if you follow the Ducks but a change of scenery for Getzlaf is what many think is coming while retaining Ryan and Perry.

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01-15-2013, 02:39 PM
  #222
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chungo View Post
I understand where you are coming from, but I think the Leafs have the prospects in place and a good working relationship with Anaheim to pull this off.

Let's look at this Hypothetically:

To Toronto:
C - Ryan Getzlaf
RW - Cory Perry

To Anaheim
RW - Phil Kessel
C/W - Nazem Kadri
RW - Clarke MacArthur
1st round pick

This would be contigent obviously on a "sign and trade" format, that would bolster up the trade value for the Ducks to get legitimate peices for the future and the present. The Leafs lose out on players that can be seen as replaceable by either this trade, prospects or the UFA market next year. Usually when a team waits for the UFA market to open, these rental players are already signed by the teams that pick them up.
I don't see the excitement of trading Corey Perry for Kadri, MacArthur and a 1st. I don't think that is what Anaheim would be looking for but I guess it would depend on how Toronto starts this season and if the Leafs would once again be picking in the top 10.

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01-15-2013, 02:40 PM
  #223
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Originally Posted by Phion Keneuf View Post
Um sure?

Pretty sure every team that has a first would as well...
It's funny because the Rangers don't have a 1st.

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01-15-2013, 02:44 PM
  #224
Coach Parker
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stu View Post
It just makes no sense for either team. Getzlaf isn't going anywhere and we have nothing to offer Perry. I would much prefer we explore every avenue of acquiring a #1 centre and #1 goalie somehow then take it from there.
The problem is with your second point is that those are the two most difficult positions to fill and Toronto doesn't have the luxury of trading away more 1sts to obtain. I truly believe that Getzlaf and Luongo fill both of those needs but Kessel, Bozak and McKegg would be on the way out with possibly more picks.

Now is Toronto stronger with a longterm foundation of Getzlaf and Luongo or Bozak, Kessel and McKegg? I believe the first so the deal becomes simplified if you move Kessel for Getzlaf, and Bozak and McKegg for Luongo.

Suddenly, the Leafs have fixed the two key situations you addressed and have the two most important positions locked up for almsot a decade and JVR, Reilly, Phaneuf, Lupul, Gardiner and others solidifying that roster.

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01-15-2013, 02:48 PM
  #225
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chungo View Post
I put in the post "sign and trade" and I understand where you are coming from, but Perry alone would demand Kadri, 1st and MacArthur... Kessel for Getzlaf would be straight up.

Just saw on other boards... Looks like this wouldn't go over well for getting Getzlaf from Anaheim since the fans are 90-95% convinced he is resigning anyway.
Heard the same about Kovalchuk, Parise, Richards, Suter, etc. Until something is finalized, everyone says the right things and fans feel like the player wants to stay. I think the focus will be on Ryan and Perry and that February will ultimately determine the future of Ryan Getzlaf. Be certain that they won't let both walk and if they think only one can be retained Getzlaf will be moved.

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