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Corey Pronman's Top 50 NHL Prospects, Midseason

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Old
01-14-2013, 05:34 PM
  #101
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Zucker. Zucker. Zucker.

Top scoring AHL rookie forward.

(yeah yeah J.Schultz is #1 rookie).

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Old
01-14-2013, 10:01 PM
  #102
Corey Pronman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacko95 View Post
Corey, thanks for your answer on my Koekkoek question, but I have another one

I totally overlooked Mark Barberio on the HM. Bolts fans are pretty high on him, but it seems like some followers start to think even higher of Radko Gudas because his game is more complete. So it would be nice if you could share your thoughts about him. Who do you think has the higher upside?
The two aren't close to me or NHL people I've talked to. Barberio has a ton of upside, Gudas is a safe, physical defensive defenseman.

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Originally Posted by LeftCoast View Post
Frankie Corrado gets dissed again.
Disagree. I like Corrado a lot. He was my #3 VAN prospect last summer (ahead of Connauton). Just didn't get into a top 50 conversation.

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Originally Posted by dbhislife View Post
Does he not list goalies normally? Markstrom is a pretty big omission since hes top 20-25 on most lists...
Nay see the links in the piece I reference in the introduction for a more detailed explanation.

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Originally Posted by Sojourn View Post
That's fair. I'd certainly agree that the consistency is an important part. Palmieri has two(+ now) years of pro hockey under his belt vs Holland's one. When looking strictly at their toolbox, I'd say they are about even. On the other hand, Palmieri seems to have a gritty abrasiveness to his game, and just a willingness to get his hands dirty.

Last season, there were a number of us who were saying that Palmieri would probably be drawing more hype if he were in a bigger market. Not elite, top of the prospects type hype, but definitely real top six potential. In particular, I think he has top six instincts, hands, and wrist shot.
I really like Palmieri. I thought he would challenge for the Calder last year. Kind of struck out on that one

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flamesrule View Post
How are Erixon, Rielly, Teravainen, and H.Lindholm ranked about Baertschi?
I explained Erixon in an earlier post in this thread. Rielly's potential is right there with the if not the best of dmen eligible for this list. Baertschi is very talented, but I don't see his upside at that level. With Teravainen it was a discussion of degrees, I see Teuvo's talent level a notch higher than Sven's in terms of his possession ability but I think highly of Baetschi in that area too. Lindholm is a special dman. He does nearly everything either well or at a high end level. All the qualities he has added up, I believe have more value than the qualities Sven brings to the table.

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Originally Posted by eyeball11 View Post
Does a 6'0" 205 lb 18 year old really need "to bulk up a ton"?
That was a poor choice of words and was pointed out to me on Twitter too. I should have said he needs to gain a lot of strength.

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Old
01-15-2013, 10:54 AM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Rabid Ranger View Post
He doesn't include goaltenders. Aside from Huberdeau and Bjugstad who else from the Panthers should make the grade? This is the top 50-not the top 500.
Yeah. But the best prospect-pool in the NHL having just 2 in the top50. Shore and Knight should for sure be there. Rau/Trocheck/Grimaldi/Howden/Matheson/Petrovic so many that could be in the discussion.

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Old
01-15-2013, 12:40 PM
  #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AwesomePanthers View Post
Yeah. But the best prospect-pool in the NHL having just 2 in the top50. Shore and Knight should for sure be there. Rau/Trocheck/Grimaldi/Howden/Matheson/Petrovic so many that could be in the discussion.
You understand that a team prospect pool doesn't correlate to similar rankings within the individual analysis? Because one team has a great prospect pool, does not mean a prospect pool significantly weaker cannot have a couple of superior high end prospects. Given distrubition does not simply work based on "Well if our team is good, the players must be sick too". 30 Teams. 50 players.

My own team, but god do the core Florida fans overate their prospects.

Shore might deserve a HM. Will be a valued hard working commodity at the NHL level. Lacks top end upside. Players like Armia should be on the list over Shore. Knight is a solid projectable player, but again, upside doesn't warrant being mentioned in this list.

Petrovic? Again, you're listing solid prospects and expecting them to be ranked in the elite. Rau lacks the size. Howden lacks the upside. Grimaldi, arguably, could be close to the list, but that will vary massively from person to person.

Interesting to see Kuznetsov at #1. Honestly think he's the most talented player from his draft year. Sometimes gets understated because he's Russian playing in Russia.

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01-15-2013, 01:24 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by AwesomePanthers View Post
Yeah. But the best prospect-pool in the NHL having just 2 in the top50. Shore and Knight should for sure be there. Rau/Trocheck/Grimaldi/Howden/Matheson/Petrovic so many that could be in the discussion.
They do, the best prospect pool has 4(Minnnesota).

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01-15-2013, 01:43 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by J17 Vs Proclamation View Post
You understand that a team prospect pool doesn't correlate to similar rankings within the individual analysis? Because one team has a great prospect pool, does not mean a prospect pool significantly weaker cannot have a couple of superior high end prospects. Given distrubition does not simply work based on "Well if our team is good, the players must be sick too". 30 Teams. 50 players.

My own team, but god do the core Florida fans overate their prospects.

Shore might deserve a HM. Will be a valued hard working commodity at the NHL level. Lacks top end upside. Players like Armia should be on the list over Shore. Knight is a solid projectable player, but again, upside doesn't warrant being mentioned in this list.

Petrovic? Again, you're listing solid prospects and expecting them to be ranked in the elite. Rau lacks the size. Howden lacks the upside. Grimaldi, arguably, could be close to the list, but that will vary massively from person to person.
I've seen most of these players, and I'm standing by that their should be more of them. And I know the difference between quantity and quality. I don't see us just having two in the top, that's outrageous. And Bjugstad at 31 is mind-blowing to me (top15, if not top10 to me). Yeah, I do like our prospects, but I don't overhype them imo. Many of them are going pretty unnoticed around here, compared to other teams prospects, like on this list.

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Originally Posted by ThatGuy22 View Post
They do, the best prospect pool has 4(Minnnesota).
Meh.. if you truly think so..

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Old
01-15-2013, 03:35 PM
  #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Corey Pronman View Post
I really like Palmieri. I thought he would challenge for the Calder last year. Kind of struck out on that one
What are you gonna do? It was just one of those seasons in Anaheim. Palmieri did well with the opportunity he was given, but he never had a fair shot at earning a full roster spot. He should better live up to your expectations this season though. I think it's his spot to lose, and he's looking really sharp at training camp. He looks hungry.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Corey Pronman View Post
I explained Erixon in an earlier post in this thread. Rielly's potential is right there with the if not the best of dmen eligible for this list. Baertschi is very talented, but I don't see his upside at that level. With Teravainen it was a discussion of degrees, I see Teuvo's talent level a notch higher than Sven's in terms of his possession ability but I think highly of Baetschi in that area too. Lindholm is a special dman. He does nearly everything either well or at a high end level. All the qualities he has added up, I believe have more value than the qualities Sven brings to the table. .
I can't, and won't speak of the other players, since I haven't seen much of them... but I definitely agree with your assessment on Rielly and Lindholm. Rielly has absolutely game-breaking potential, and while I think he's a bit high risk/high reward, that reward could really be something. Lindholm has kind of blown away some of us in Anaheim. There's a very OEL-ish quality to his game. That smooth, intelligent game, where all the talent seems to be used in all the right ways. I'm not convinced he can ever be as good as OEL, because he(that is Larsson) just seemed to get better and better at a startling rate, but I see a special quality in him. With Lindholm, I think he's one of those "as good as he wants to be" players, and as his confidence improves, he'll continue to assert himself more and more. I'm a little nervous though, because he already had two minor concussions, and those are pretty scary. As you can tell, I'm pretty excited about that pick though. He's been very impressive. I think he's pretty quickly turned into Anaheim's best prospect.


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Old
01-15-2013, 05:02 PM
  #108
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Pronman had Filatov on this list last year (and ranked first 2 years before). Tells you the attributes he values.

He has strong biases.

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01-15-2013, 05:02 PM
  #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AwesomePanthers View Post
I've seen most of these players, and I'm standing by that their should be more of them. And I know the difference between quantity and quality. I don't see us just having two in the top, that's outrageous. And Bjugstad at 31 is mind-blowing to me (top15, if not top10 to me). Yeah, I do like our prospects, but I don't overhype them imo. Many of them are going pretty unnoticed around here, compared to other teams prospects, like on this list.
I think the difference is the guys you'd have on the list (or higher on the list) aren't the kind of puck possession players Pronman puts emphasis on. His list has a style to it. It's not supposed to be an absolute-style ranking of "goodness," but a ranking according to a puck possession style of play.

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01-15-2013, 05:04 PM
  #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AwesomePanthers View Post
I've seen most of these players, and I'm standing by that their should be more of them. And I know the difference between quantity and quality. I don't see us just having two in the top, that's outrageous. And Bjugstad at 31 is mind-blowing to me (top15, if not top10 to me). Yeah, I do like our prospects, but I don't overhype them imo. Many of them are going pretty unnoticed around here, compared to other teams prospects, like on this list.
I cannot disagree more. You vastly overestimate the ability of many Florida prospects ; something that seems to breed itself within our sub section.

Knight, Petrovic, Howden and Rau don't deserve to be close to this list IMO. Decent prospects yes ; but all have flaws/concerns inspite of being likely NHL players.

Bjugtsad at 31 seems fair. He's actually a little overhyped at this point. Yes, he has fantastic physical abilities and good skills, but we are comparing him to the absolute elite here. I'm taking prospects like Jarnkrok or Nyqvist over him without much thought for instance. Top 10 seems a little ludicrious to me.

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01-15-2013, 05:07 PM
  #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashasx View Post
Pronman had Filatov on this list last year (and ranked first 2 years before). Tells you the attributes he values.

He has strong biases.
Filatov was highly rated by all. High end abilities that didn't translate for a number of reasons.

All rankings have their biases.

I disagree with Pronman in some instances (with much less source knowledge to go on). People trash these lists, but i imagine their lists would be so much worse, complied upon a much more biased agenda and basedon upon much inferior source knowledge.

No list is perfect. No view is perfect. Pronman gives an interesting perception.

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01-15-2013, 05:09 PM
  #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J17 Vs Proclamation View Post
Filatov was highly rated by all. High end abilities that didn't translate for a number of reasons.

All rankings have their biases.

I disagree with Pronman in some instances (with much less source knowledge to go on). People trash these lists, but i imagine their lists would be so much worse, complied upon a much more biased agenda and basedon upon much inferior source knowledge.

No list is perfect. No view is perfect. Pronman gives an interesting perception.
Especially with Filatov going to Ottawa last year. Many thought it was the change of scenery he needed.

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01-15-2013, 05:23 PM
  #113
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Filatov had no business being on the list last year.

Pronman really doesn't take work ethic or attitude into consideration, and I'd say it's a damn important trait.

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01-15-2013, 05:26 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by Ashasx View Post
Filatov had no business being on the list last year.

Pronman really doesn't take work ethic or attitude into consideration, and I'd say it's a damn important trait.
According to who?

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01-15-2013, 05:28 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by J17 Vs Proclamation View Post
According to who?
According to who that work ethic and attitude is important to becoming a star hockey player?

Well, me, I guess. I'm sure a few others might agree.

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01-15-2013, 05:30 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by Ashasx View Post
According to who that work ethic and attitude is important to becoming a star hockey player?

Well, me, I guess. I'm sure a few others might agree.
You misunderstand. According to who does Pronman not value work ethic and attitude?

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01-15-2013, 05:36 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by J17 Vs Proclamation View Post
You misunderstand. According to who does Pronman not value work ethic and attitude?
Looking at this list now, but particularly his past lists, and the players he had rated high, and the ones who failed at such a high ranking.

It's my observation. Disagree as you may.

Pronman is very high on skilled players playing in leagues above the CHL. Not a bad way to do things at all, but it has its flaws.

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01-15-2013, 05:50 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by Ashasx View Post
Looking at this list now, but particularly his past lists, and the players he had rated high, and the ones who failed at such a high ranking.

It's my observation. Disagree as you may.

Pronman is very high on skilled players playing in leagues above the CHL. Not a bad way to do things at all, but it has its flaws.
The incorrect correlation here is puck possession means a general lack of work ethic (Or less relative to an emphasis based on a different style).

This list will of course not be close to perfect. No list is. I find this list to be relatively reasonably, with sufficiently detailed justifications complied by viewings and discussions with professional scouts. People will disagree with the emphasis on puck possession and where certain players are or are not ranked, but (Not saying you) the people who trash his lists are usually uninformed people entering the thread with a specific agenda (He didn't rank my favourite prospect).

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01-15-2013, 05:51 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by Ashasx View Post
Filatov had no business being on the list last year.

Pronman really doesn't take work ethic or attitude into consideration, and I'd say it's a damn important trait.
It's not that those things aren't important, more that they're impossible to accurately quantify and measure. Judging work ethic or attitude based on limited viewings is a fool's errand. I'd much rather steer clear of any list that emphasizes intangibles. That's how you end up with "enigmatic" Russians and "good old Canadian boys".

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01-15-2013, 06:14 PM
  #120
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Originally Posted by J17 Vs Proclamation View Post
You misunderstand. According to who does Pronman not value work ethic and attitude?
At one point he said whoever used a lottery pick on Landeskog would be making a huge mistake. I think he over-rates natural skill and under-rates hockey sense and determination.

Still an interesting list nonetheless.

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01-15-2013, 06:31 PM
  #121
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At one point he said whoever used a lottery pick on Landeskog would be making a huge mistake. I think he over-rates natural skill and under-rates hockey sense and determination.

Still an interesting list nonetheless.
I think he really values hockey sense and views at as important but I agree he underrates heart, leadership, character and determination. He does work for stat-heavy Hockey Prospectus, it is too be expected. He adjusts his attributes he is looking for towards their findings - like puck possession.

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01-15-2013, 06:35 PM
  #122
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Originally Posted by Ashasx View Post
According to who that work ethic and attitude is important to becoming a star hockey player?

Well, me, I guess. I'm sure a few others might agree.
I think you can frame this as a criticism that this list won't give you prospects who will become good NHL grinders/tweeners/glue guys, but I don't think many of them would routinely make the top 50 anyway. A few would, but it also means that the absence thereof isn't ruining the list. It's only off a little.

Other than that, how on earth is Pronman supposed to figure out personality and so on? He can't exactly run a background check, and going on rumors about that stuff would probably be inappropriate. Plus, these are kids, and a lot of the kids who mess around will stop messing around with time. The ranking could become radically inaccurate over time.

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01-15-2013, 06:53 PM
  #123
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Originally Posted by avsfan09 View Post
At one point he said whoever used a lottery pick on Landeskog would be making a huge mistake. I think he over-rates natural skill and under-rates hockey sense and determination.

Still an interesting list nonetheless.
His critique on Landeskog wasn't related to hockey sense, it was more questioning his long term ceiling and skill level. He said himself he thought he was going to be a good player, he just wasn't sure that he had a lot of room to grow and that other players could be better choices. Not like everybody is right all of the time anyway.

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01-15-2013, 07:04 PM
  #124
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That's what I really don't get. Who's to say Landeskog doesn't have point per game potential?

When you look at the top scorers in the NHL, yeah, it's filled with skill, but it's also filled with unbelievable athleticism. It's nice to have a stud prospect that can stick handle in a phone booth, to have high end puck skills, but most of the top players in the NHL play a really simple game without a lot of puck flash.

It wasn't long ago that players like Forsberg, Lindros, and Iginla dominated this league.


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01-15-2013, 07:35 PM
  #125
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Originally Posted by Ashasx View Post
Pronman had Filatov on this list last year (and ranked first 2 years before). Tells you the attributes he values.

He has strong biases.
So, it's somehow Pronman's fault that Filatov refused to put in the work his NHL coaches demanded, for him to improving defensively?

Ok. I didn't realize Pronman had Jedi mind trick powers. I'm impressed

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