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Perry and Getzlaf talks to start

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01-15-2013, 01:03 AM
  #51
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Staal was a RFA at the time he signed though. UFAs have much more leverage.

Nash is a good comparable, Perry could probably command a bit more though. I'd be pretty happy if we could get him to re-sign for an $8M cap hit.

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01-15-2013, 01:13 AM
  #52
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$8M is steep for a team like the Ducks. Gotta hope Getzlaf takes somewhat of a discount. Idk if we can afford to bring both back on $8M cap hits

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01-15-2013, 02:07 AM
  #53
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$8M is steep for a team like the Ducks. Gotta hope Getzlaf takes somewhat of a discount. Idk if we can afford to bring both back on $8M cap hits
If we can get them both signed for a combined 15 million a year I'd be happy. Doesn't matter though, I'll be happy at both being signed regardless. Murray fills the rest of the forwards with prospects and cheap forwards anyway.

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01-15-2013, 02:11 AM
  #54
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It's pretty hard to find players under contract for 5-8 years max who are around the same age as Getzlaf and Perry and have accomplished as much as they have, when they signed their contracts. For example, Toews signed his current contract before he won his Cup, Conn Smythe, and Olympic Gold. Kopitar signed his before winning the Cup. The Sedins signed their contracts before winning their Art Ross', Hart (Henrik) and Lindsay (Daniel), although they did have Olympic Golds when they signed. Getzlaf and Perry could easily demand more money than those players. Two comparables that stick out to me are Eric Staal for Getzlaf and Nash for Perry.

Staal is on a 7 year, $57.75 million deal that he signed when he was only 23, but had a Cup and WC Gold to his name. He was already a top center in the game, with a 100 point season to prove it. His cap hit is $8.25 million and is earning over $9 million in the last three years of the deal. I could see Getzlaf's contract being similar to this, but he has more leverage Staal had when he got his deal, being captain, 4 years older, and an Olympic Gold which Staal didn't have at the time.

Nash is on an 8 year, 62.4M contract, was 25 when he signed and other than winning a Richard trophy, accomplished nothing in the NHL. Had won a WC Gold but signed his contract before winning gold in 2010. He was however the face of a struggling franchise who were basically forced to give him whatever he wanted. Perry could also demand equal or more money than Nash got.

I could see both Getzlaf and Perry wanting upwards of $60-65 million over 8 years. There's a good chance someone is willing to pay $60 over 7 for these guys in free agency. If they settle for a cap hit of around 7.5 for the Ducks, I'd be happy. Could easily get upwards of 8 though.

Ilya Kovalchuk is a good baseline for Corey Perry.

I believe Perry can and will get between $10-11 million per year for the full 7 years. That's what Kovalchuk is slated to get for the next 7 years. And Getzlaf is the big body frontline center everyone desperately wants, so it wouldn't even surprise me if he gets more than Perry.

maybe they'll do Anaheim a kindness by re-signing before the free agency window opens, because the vultures are already starting to circle.

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01-15-2013, 02:22 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Jerkini View Post
Ilya Kovalchuk is a good baseline for Corey Perry.

I believe Perry can and will get between $10-11 million per year for the full 7 years. That's what Kovalchuk is slated to get for the next 7 years. And Getzlaf is the big body frontline center everyone desperately wants, so it wouldn't even surprise me if he gets more than Perry.
I think that's rather absurd. Kovalchuk only gets that kind of number because the old CBA allowed tools to cut the cap hit down. Him making $10-11M in salary doesn't remotely suggest that GMs would have been comfortable giving him that amount in cap hit. There's not many actual benchmarks available, due to the vast difference in nature between the old and new CBA. To me, $8M in salary as well as cap hit seems to be closing in on the upper limit of what is reasonable.

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01-15-2013, 03:16 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Vipers31 View Post
I think that's rather absurd. Kovalchuk only gets that kind of number because the old CBA allowed tools to cut the cap hit down. Him making $10-11M in salary doesn't remotely suggest that GMs would have been comfortable giving him that amount in cap hit. There's not many actual benchmarks available, due to the vast difference in nature between the old and new CBA. To me, $8M in salary as well as cap hit seems to be closing in on the upper limit of what is reasonable.
Exactly. No team can have a guy making $10 million a year cap hit, that's the exact reason these back-diving contracts were invented in the first place, and now with a new CBA, that's not attainable any longer.

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01-15-2013, 03:17 AM
  #57
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I think that's rather absurd. Kovalchuk only gets that kind of number because the old CBA allowed tools to cut the cap hit down. Him making $10-11M in salary doesn't remotely suggest that GMs would have been comfortable giving him that amount in cap hit. There's not many actual benchmarks available, due to the vast difference in nature between the old and new CBA. To me, $8M in salary as well as cap hit seems to be closing in on the upper limit of what is reasonable.
10, 10, 10, 7, 7, 5, 5, 5 - 7M cap hit, 8 years.
11, 11, 11, 7.5, 7.5, 5.5, 5.5, 5.5 - 8.06M cap hit, 8 years.

35% variance, lowest year is 50% - these are still legal. Leaves a team open for a 10M cap advantage reclamation hit if he retires after 6 years for some reason.


Whatever he gets will look like this. Lop off one of the middle years for another team (7 year max offer) for same cap hit.

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01-15-2013, 03:26 AM
  #58
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$8M is steep for a team like the Ducks. Gotta hope Getzlaf takes somewhat of a discount. Idk if we can afford to bring both back on $8M cap hits
There are no excuses now, back diving contracts are gone, there are max years that can be offered, and we now qualify for revenue sharing, I don't wanna hear any excuses that we can't afford them, if you won't pay to sign your two best players, in their prime then why should we as fans bother to give you our money?

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01-15-2013, 03:33 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by OccupySheen View Post
There are no excuses now, back diving contracts are gone, there are max years that can be offered, and we now qualify for revenue sharing, I don't wanna hear any excuses that we can't afford them, if you won't pay to sign your two best players, in their prime then why should we as fans bother to give you our money?
It's not the money it's the cap hit. Crosby and Malkin have an 8.7M cap hit each and look at the trouble Pittsburgh has had icing actual top 6 forwards to go with them. Getzlaf and Perry aren't each capable of carrying a line by themselves like those two are.

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01-15-2013, 04:54 AM
  #60
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It's not the money it's the cap hit. Crosby and Malkin have an 8.7M cap hit each and look at the trouble Pittsburgh has had icing actual top 6 forwards to go with them. Getzlaf and Perry aren't each capable of carrying a line by themselves like those two are.
Well Murray has no problem telling us how great the farm system is, if that's the case, we should be able to supplement Getzlaf and Perry with talent. I just don't wanna hear that the money isn't there, it's not a good excuse anymore

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01-15-2013, 07:32 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by OccupySheen View Post
I just don't wanna hear that the money isn't there, it's not a good excuse anymore
There's nothing else to say than we'll have to wait and see. It wasn't an "excuse" but a reason most times in the past, and even within the helpful restrictions of the new CBA, we're not among the richer teams, and we're most likely still not a cap team. Money not being there will continue to be a very real factor.

Whether it's going to be one with Getzlaf, I doubt it. It might be one with the two of them as a package, because they're going to keep playing on a line. I'm with DVM there entirely (at least, if I get his point right) - paying two forwards on one line $16M isn't a great vision, even in the light of the extremely uncomfortable position of losing one of them. But that wouldn't be an easy foundation for success going forward. That has to be respected.

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Well Murray has no problem telling us how great the farm system is, if that's the case, we should be able to supplement Getzlaf and Perry with talent.
It's a bit of a different task to fill blanks next to players like Malkin or Crosby, than it is to fill one blank next to Getzlaf/Perry, and an entire line of blanks, with noone being reasonably expected to carry that line.

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01-15-2013, 08:41 AM
  #62
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If Burke were GM again both Perry and Getzlaf would be off to Boston so he could build his 2nd cup winner in 3 seasons.

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01-15-2013, 10:49 AM
  #63
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If Burke were GM again both Perry and Getzlaf would be off to Boston so he could build his 2nd cup winner in 3 seasons.
Yeah Boston would certainly win 2 cups inside of three seasons and this time Burke would even have a bigger impact.

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01-15-2013, 12:33 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by OccupySheen View Post
There are no excuses now, back diving contracts are gone, there are max years that can be offered, and we now qualify for revenue sharing, I don't wanna hear any excuses that we can't afford them, if you won't pay to sign your two best players, in their prime then why should we as fans bother to give you our money?
Exactly

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01-15-2013, 01:04 PM
  #65
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Ilya Kovalchuk is a good baseline for Corey Perry.

I believe Perry can and will get between $10-11 million per year for the full 7 years. That's what Kovalchuk is slated to get for the next 7 years. And Getzlaf is the big body frontline center everyone desperately wants, so it wouldn't even surprise me if he gets more than Perry.

maybe they'll do Anaheim a kindness by re-signing before the free agency window opens, because the vultures are already starting to circle.
Corey Perry will NOT have the highest cap hit in the league. His cap hit will absolutely not be higher than Crosby's, Ovechkin's, or Malkin's. Kovalchuck is a bad comparison and I didn't mention him because as I said in my post, I was looking at players signed to 8 years max. Kovy's contract is terrible and he's getting paid that 10, 11 million because A) The owners could afford to pay one player that much for a season and B) He's getting paid only $14 million over the last 6 years of his deal.

The Ducks operate under an internal salary budget and all signs indicate they will continue to to so, but it will most likely have to increase to fit Getz and Perry in. If we have 2 guys taking up around 40% of that budget in any one year, they will not be a part of this franchise. There's a reason contracts like Kovalchuk's are no longer permitted under the new CBA. The bottom line is, Perry's new contract will look nothing like Kovalchuk's.

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01-15-2013, 03:55 PM
  #66
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There's nothing else to say than we'll have to wait and see. It wasn't an "excuse" but a reason most times in the past, and even within the helpful restrictions of the new CBA, we're not among the richer teams, and we're most likely still not a cap team. Money not being there will continue to be a very real factor.

Whether it's going to be one with Getzlaf, I doubt it. It might be one with the two of them as a package, because they're going to keep playing on a line. I'm with DVM there entirely (at least, if I get his point right) - paying two forwards on one line $16M isn't a great vision, even in the light of the extremely uncomfortable position of losing one of them. But that wouldn't be an easy foundation for success going forward. That has to be respected.


It's a bit of a different task to fill blanks next to players like Malkin or Crosby, than it is to fill one blank next to Getzlaf/Perry, and an entire line of blanks, with noone being reasonably expected to carry that line.
That's exactly what I was trying to say. Crosby and Malkin can play with 3rd liners and outperform Perry and Getzlaf (while making 3rd liners produce like 2nd liners and 2nd liners produce like 1st liners), which is the only thing that makes that team work.

The other thing is - say goodbye to Ryan. No way can they carry 3 forwards at 7+ in 2 years.

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01-15-2013, 04:31 PM
  #67
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That's exactly what I was trying to say. Crosby and Malkin can play with 3rd liners and outperform Perry and Getzlaf (while making 3rd liners produce like 2nd liners and 2nd liners produce like 1st liners), which is the only thing that makes that team work.

The other thing is - say goodbye to Ryan. No way can they carry 3 forwards at 7+ in 2 years.
If that's the case then I'd like to think we make a big push to sign Perry and Getz asap, even if it costs a bit more than we like. In the off season Bobby could fetch a darn good price with 2 years still remaining on a very good contract. With next year's cap dropping from $70.something to $64.3 somebody should be willing to pay up for him.

And as I stated elsewhere, I think this is a turning point for the future of this franchise. If we do not make a giant effort to sign these two guys now, when will we ever show a desire to go the extra mile? If we don't sign those two now, what are the chances Bobby would want to stay anyway, in two years? Seems like Bobby could be gone either way. One way we have Perry and Getz, the other way we don't have any of the three.

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01-15-2013, 04:36 PM
  #68
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There's no reason to assume the team is not making a herculean effort to sign them both.

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01-15-2013, 04:42 PM
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There's no reason to assume the team is not making a herculean effort to sign them both.
Agreed. Just making sure BM knows where we stand, just in case he was wondering.

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01-15-2013, 05:14 PM
  #70
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If that's the case then I'd like to think we make a big push to sign Perry and Getz asap, even if it costs a bit more than we like. In the off season Bobby could fetch a darn good price with 2 years still remaining on a very good contract. With next year's cap dropping from $70.something to $64.3 somebody should be willing to pay up for him.
Well, it's not just "say goodbye to Bobby", it's basically "say goodbye to another expensive forward" for the next near-decade, which is what we need to be aware of. Even finding comparably cheap good second line players for $4M a year will give us a hell of a hard time. If it really came to Getzlaf/Pears asking for $8M each, we'd likely soon start laughing at having complained about being a one-line team before. It's a very, very difficult basis to build anything around.

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And as I stated elsewhere, I think this is a turning point for the future of this franchise.
It no doubt is.

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If we do not make a giant effort to sign these two guys now, when will we ever show a desire to go the extra mile?
I don't know if I'd go that far. Just because our last few years - safe for last year mainly for reasons very other than Getzlaf and Perry, to be fair - haven't exactly put us to a point where one would have to conclude that this is a core working to that special degree that puts it above questioning. I don't think we're in a situation where it's beyond viable rationalisation to blow a bit of the core up. Not that I'd ask for that, but I don't think this group has done enough to have earned that very rare spot beyond that shadow of a doubt.

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If we don't sign those two now, what are the chances Bobby would want to stay anyway, in two years? Seems like Bobby could be gone either way. One way we have Perry and Getz, the other way we don't have any of the three.
It's entirely speculation, but I actually don't get the impression that Ryan is wired that way. I think he's rather emotional in certain aspects, and I believe there's aspects he values higher. I might be entirely off on that.

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There's no reason to assume the team is not making a herculean effort to sign them both.
No question. I mean, I can philosophize about us getting in trouble with a $16M pair on one line, but at the end of the day, Ducks fans won't let Murray stop hearing it for a long time if he loses either, no matter what the situation ends up like.

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01-15-2013, 05:39 PM
  #71
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Torontos in a worst position than we are. Kessel is still a stud player all they lost was Seguin. Besides a few bad signings with Dead Weight he brought us Bobby Ryan who was a crapshoot 2nd overall. Guess what? he's panned out and might be the only first line player signed after this season.
i think seguin is going to be a better player than kessel. that trade was all sorts of horrible. price wise and asset management wise...boneheaded move.

the "bad signings" were because he allowed two vets to take way to long in deciding if they were coming back.

those bad signings had the direct result of andy mac getting traded, destroying a second line with outstanding chemistry.

murry gets much to little credit for our cup run and burke gets to much credit. toronto just showed how bad at management burke is.

flame on.

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01-15-2013, 06:03 PM
  #72
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Agreed. Just making sure BM knows where we stand, just in case he was wondering.
I picture Murray like Scotty in Star Trek IV when it comes to computers: I can see him picking up the mouse and saying "hello computer?" into the trackball.

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No question. I mean, I can philosophize about us getting in trouble with a $16M pair on one line, but at the end of the day, Ducks fans won't let Murray stop hearing it for a long time if he loses either, no matter what the situation ends up like.
Yeah. Also, armageddon isn't imminent, even with the two of them making $8M. The boiler is going to start gradually creaking and threatening to blow over the next few seasons, but we're not there yet. Plus, there are always the safety valves of trading Ryan and replacing Selanne with a kid on an ELC.

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01-15-2013, 06:38 PM
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I picture Murray like Scotty in Star Trek IV when it comes to computers: I can see him picking up the mouse and saying "hello computer?" into the trackball.
Ahh yes, that was a classic scene.

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01-16-2013, 09:22 AM
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- Agree. If we can't afford to pay a them a combined 15-16 mil, then we shouldn't have a franchize and I shouldn't bother paying for tickets.

I really don't see a way to replace Perry or Getzlaf. Its not going to happen in UFA, and its not goina happen in a trade, unless we are taking on someone's big contract they don't want.

That said, if this was fantasy team, I'd love to dish Getz and Perry for big returns, then use the saved money to buy or trade for some overpriced free agents and double up on my talent.

As a fan, I wouldn't want to see Getz or Perry moved, or Ryan for that matter. I don't really remember what hockey looks like anyway, its been so long, so I'd like to watch my short season with players I know.

Get em signed, worry about caps later.

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01-16-2013, 10:08 AM
  #75
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- Agree. If we can't afford to pay a them a combined 15-16 mil, then we shouldn't have a franchize and I shouldn't bother paying for tickets.

I really don't see a way to replace Perry or Getzlaf. Its not going to happen in UFA, and its not goina happen in a trade, unless we are taking on someone's big contract they don't want.

That said, if this was fantasy team, I'd love to dish Getz and Perry for big returns, then use the saved money to buy or trade for some overpriced free agents and double up on my talent.

As a fan, I wouldn't want to see Getz or Perry moved, or Ryan for that matter. I don't really remember what hockey looks like anyway, its been so long, so I'd like to watch my short season with players I know.

Get em signed, worry about caps later.
There's NO way we could replace Perry and Getz in the same year even through UFA's. But I also agree with ya that we could trade both at the deadline if they don't want to sign in Anaheim. And fetch a large return. Or quite possibly a sign and trade type of scenario and pull a Kovy deal or Nash deal out of it.

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