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P.K Subban Thread 2.0

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Old
01-15-2013, 05:41 PM
  #251
windycity
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EveryDay View Post
Woud you be interested in one of thoses trades?

to Phi
Coburn + Couturier for Gionta + Subban Yes

to NYI
Hamonic + Moulson + 1st for Gionta + Subban + 2nd Yes

to Winnipeg
Kane + Bogosian for Subban + Bourque + 2nd Yes

to Wash
Alzner + Carlson for Subban + ? Maybe

to Chicago
Subban for Seabrook No way

to Anahein
Sbisa + Ryan for Subban + Gionta Maybe
Still would much rather sign him to reasonable deal

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01-15-2013, 05:47 PM
  #252
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Originally Posted by BxN View Post
That's not my opinion, it's the way PK seems to evaluate his own value.

Not a big difference between the Rangers' (23rd 15.7%) and the Habs' (28th 14.3%) powerplay last season. Both Subban and Del Zotto compare really well when it comes to powerplay icetime and production.

Listen, I like PK and hope he starts the season on saturday but he certainly is not helping his own cause by asking for the big contract after only two full seasons.
People have to stop comparing PK to MDZ, it's not comparable.
The kid didn't have a good season before last, and suffered a significant injury.
In his rookie year, as well as his sophomore, he was the 5th most used Dman (or4th) if I recall correctly. In no way was he brought up in the same conditions as PK, or had to deal with the same kind of pressure (and respond successfully to it) as PK.
It's not even close!

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01-15-2013, 05:54 PM
  #253
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BxN View Post
That's not my opinion, it's the way PK seems to evaluate his own value.

Not a big difference between the Rangers' (23rd 15.7%) and the Habs' (28th 14.3%) powerplay last season. Both Subban and Del Zotto compare really well when it comes to powerplay icetime and production.

Listen, I like PK and hope he starts the season on saturday but he certainly is not helping his own cause by asking for the big contract after only two full seasons.
How do you know it's not the team that's trying to low-ball him?

We're not privy to the specifics of this negotiations, all we have is rumors, which I might add, tend to be magnified when it comes to anything PK Subban related...

I'm not sure why we, as fans, need to choose sides when a team is negotiating with a player. This is between PK/Agent and the Montreal Canadiens, sometimes negotiations (as we're all too aware) are more difficult then others and even get acromonious at times...but at the end of the day, we all know boths sides will come to an agreement.

This particular contract is a tricky one IMO, because you could have a valid argument on either side.

I don't see the point in characterizing either side at this juncture, let's just see where the chips fall, there's still time left and PK is still under the Habs control for the forseable future

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01-15-2013, 05:57 PM
  #254
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We have 6 legit NHL d-men we can dress if PK isn't signed by Saturday so I'm not panicking. Even if he misses 3-4 games, not a big deal. I'd rather get him signed to a good contract in 10-14 days than over pay and have a bad deal.

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01-15-2013, 06:08 PM
  #255
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Like I said, this is Bergevins first real test. Either he signs Subban to a decent deal or he trades him and what he gets in return will be brought up for the remainder of his tenure.

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01-15-2013, 06:10 PM
  #256
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
We have 6 legit NHL d-men we can dress if PK isn't signed by Saturday so I'm not panicking. Even if he misses 3-4 games, not a big deal. I'd rather get him signed to a good contract in 10-14 days than over pay and have a bad deal.
Only two right-shooters. Weber and Diaz. Although Gorges will hopefully
be used on the right, that still looks thin.
I hate the idea of Emelin on the right side. If one of Markov, Kaberle, or
Boullion can switch sides, that would help of course. Personally I'd try Kaberle.
After all, he didn't look great on the left side last year, so there isn't a lot to
lose. And he doesn't lack the ability to read and understand the game. Lack
of tenacity and strength may be similar on either side.

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01-15-2013, 06:11 PM
  #257
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
It's not even close!
Not even close?

Subban: 24.18 (1st in Habs)
Del Zotto: 22.26 (3rd in Rangers)

MDZ had better production overall (surrounded by a better quality team, fine!) but had less ice time.

Pressure-wise, New York might not be Montreal but it's still friggin New York!

I'm not even suggesting PK should sign the same contract but saying the comparables aren't even close is weird.

I have no doubt Subban will climb the NHL's defensemen hierarchy in the coming years but let's just not jump the gun.

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01-15-2013, 06:14 PM
  #258
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Originally Posted by OneSharpMarble View Post
Like I said, this is Bergevins first real test. Either he signs Subban to a decent deal or he trades him and what he gets in return will be brought up for the remainder of his tenure.
What if Subban's actually traded? It'll look awful for us in so many ways.

What is he asking for that Bergevin won't give into?

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01-15-2013, 06:17 PM
  #259
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Originally Posted by WhiskeySeven View Post
What if Subban's actually traded? It'll look awful for us in so many ways.

What is he asking for that Bergevin won't give into?
Seems to be term that Subban wants whereas bergevin wants to stay short term.

Can't say I agree with bergevin here.

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01-15-2013, 06:18 PM
  #260
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Originally Posted by WhiskeySeven View Post
What if Subban's actually traded? It'll look awful for us in so many ways.

What is he asking for that Bergevin won't give into?
Why does it look awful? The management has a set of rules on how to deal with player contracts and wont break them. Seems to me that Subban is being the unreasonable one here.

By the sounds of it he is asking for a 4 year deal to take him right to UFA status. Bergevin wants 2 or 6 years like Pacioretty and Price got?

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01-15-2013, 06:22 PM
  #261
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This situation is really becoming untenable. We finally get the lockout solved (while PK is on Toronto radio/tv the whole time...I'm there, watched it all) and now THIS.

It seemed like PK was sooo interested in getting back to playing hockey during his radio spots when discussing the lockout and all hockey issues. He then pimps his brand out like crazy (I did not have a shortage of seeing him on TV) and now comes back, understandably with a big head. I hate to not like his attitude and I'm not one who gives into the "PK has a bad attitude/cancer" mentality so this whole process is disturbing in that it feels exactly like the inability to get a deal done as displayed by the NHL and PA. I would love to be a fly on the wall. Each knows the other's POV by now. What is it that's going to change? I know that negotiation is about coming to a middle ground, but why is it taking so long? Are they playing a serious game of chicken?

I would hate to think that PK doesn't understand the mentality (and a good one to have going forward) that no one is bigger than the team, that you need to earn your rewards and that it's not all about swag and tv spots and being the darling of the toronto media scene (in the offseason). Unfortunately, this delay gives me cause to worry that this is the case. Obviously I don't know what's really going on. I wish I did.

He better be playing on Saturday. Missing the home opener after a lockout, against the Leafs? That's how you get the fans to turn against you.

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Old
01-15-2013, 06:28 PM
  #262
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This season will have taught me to excpect the wrost when it comes to the NHL.

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Old
01-15-2013, 06:29 PM
  #263
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Originally Posted by habtastic View Post
This situation is really becoming untenable. We finally get the lockout solved (while PK is on Toronto radio/tv the whole time...I'm there, watched it all) and now THIS.

It seemed like PK was sooo interested in getting back to playing hockey during his radio spots when discussing the lockout and all hockey issues. He then pimps his brand out like crazy (I did not have a shortage of seeing him on TV) and now comes back, understandably with a big head. I hate to not like his attitude and I'm not one who gives into the "PK has a bad attitude/cancer" mentality so this whole process is disturbing in that it feels exactly like the inability to get a deal done as displayed by the NHL and PA. I would love to be a fly on the wall. Each knows the other's POV by now. What is it that's going to change? I know that negotiation is about coming to a middle ground, but why is it taking so long? Are they playing a serious game of chicken?

I would hate to think that PK doesn't understand the mentality (and a good one to have going forward) that no one is bigger than the team, that you need to earn your rewards and that it's not all about swag and tv spots and being the darling of the toronto media scene (in the offseason). Unfortunately, this delay gives me cause to worry that this is the case. Obviously I don't know what's really going on. I wish I did.

He better be playing on Saturday. Missing the home opener after a lockout, against the Leafs? That's how you get the fans to turn against you.
Good post. Gotta agree that PK not playing saturday is not good for anybody. Fans just put up with a ridiculous lock-out, only to come back and not have one of their star players on opening night because of another fight over money? Fans will turn on Subban AND management.

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Old
01-15-2013, 06:35 PM
  #264
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Originally Posted by overlords View Post
Good post. Gotta agree that PK not playing saturday is not good for anybody. Fans just put up with a ridiculous lock-out, only to come back and not have one of their star players on opening night because of another fight over money? Fans will turn on Subban AND management.
EXACTLY! I don't want to hear anymore excuses. We are all sick of excuses. It is inexcusable for him not to be in the lineup Saturday.

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Old
01-15-2013, 06:37 PM
  #265
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I am slightly mollified when there are others out there... Benn, O'Reilly... in similar situations. But if Kulikov has signed, and these other cases gradually fall by the wayside... I'll somehow feel a little worse. Even if it's not really logical to relate the cases. But just knowing that other teams and other studly young RFAs are having some troubles reaching a deal in similar situations has a (very minor) softening effect.

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01-15-2013, 06:43 PM
  #266
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Hope this prolonged negotiation is all a bunch of agent vs management bull **** and we see a reasonable contract in the next few days. I'm holding on to my optimism until game day. If it goes beyond that, then I'll start pointing fingers. I think at that point I'd be on Bergevin's side and I'm a huge PK fan. Bergevin has openly stated that PK is a core member of this team. I just can't see him being stubborn if there is a fair deal on the table. He has no reason to lowball. He knows what PK is worth to the franchise.

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01-15-2013, 06:44 PM
  #267
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The more it goes on, the more i think Subban wont sign.


Sigh

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Old
01-15-2013, 06:56 PM
  #268
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It's true that the most negativity you hear is from Meehan. Not sure if he's trying some sort of PR stunt. Could even be that Bergevin and PK himself aren't that far apart and things are going ok, but Meehan is playing the devil on his shoulder. I haven't seen anything of real negative substance from the other two. PK is presumably advised not to tweet or talk about it and Bergevin seemed optimistic and as if it were only a matter of ironing out a few things. Again, this is just how it seems. PK could be holding it up. I think many of us understand that PK wants and very well could get a big contract considering he knows he has leverage and being him, we might act similarly, but the thing that gets me is IF he is insisting on setting up a situation where in the future he's guaranteed big money by ANY team that will pay him (and there will be, although it is unwise to be so cocky about it right now), that would be disappointing. He would be doing that by either pushing the 4 year deal or by asking for a TON of cash long-term with the Habs. Again, this SEEMS to be the strategy his camp is pursuing. Would be nice if he showed this team, the fans that he means what he says about loving Montreal and wanting to play his career here. If that's what you want, understand that forgoing a few million (overall, in the long term) for yourself improves the chances that the team you play on becomes a contender. Do you want a Cup or just more money and "fame"? Problem is we won't know how much of this is actually PK.

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01-15-2013, 07:00 PM
  #269
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Originally Posted by BxN View Post
Not even close?

Subban: 24.18 (1st in Habs)
Del Zotto: 22.26 (3rd in Rangers)

MDZ had better production overall (surrounded by a better quality team, fine!) but had less ice time.

Pressure-wise, New York might not be Montreal but it's still friggin New York!

I'm not even suggesting PK should sign the same contract but saying the comparables aren't even close is weird.

I have no doubt Subban will climb the NHL's defensemen hierarchy in the coming years but let's just not jump the gun.
I could produce an essay on the matter, but the short and simple thesis is that judging defensemen on straight points is a terrible practice. It tell you very little about value since their point totals are based just as much on situation as talent.

Suffice to say, Del Zotto is a 2nd pairing puck mover and PP specialist, Subban is a 1st pairing two-way defenseman whole plays all high-leverage situations. That's why aren't directly comparable.

Or you can say their offensive value is comparable, but Subban does a bunch of other very important things on top of his offense that Del Zotto doesn't.

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01-15-2013, 07:08 PM
  #270
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Originally Posted by habtastic View Post
It's true that the most negativity you hear is from Meehan. Not sure if he's trying some sort of PR stunt. Could even be that Bergevin and PK himself aren't that far apart and things are going ok, but Meehan is playing the devil on his shoulder. I haven't seen anything of real negative substance from the other two. PK is presumably advised not to tweet or talk about it and Bergevin seemed optimistic and as if it were only a matter of ironing out a few things. Again, this is just how it seems. PK could be holding it up. I think many of us understand that PK wants and very well could get a big contract considering he knows he has leverage and being him, we might act similarly, but the thing that gets me is IF he is insisting on setting up a situation where in the future he's guaranteed big money by ANY team that will pay him (and there will be, although it is unwise to be so cocky about it right now), that would be disappointing. He would be doing that by either pushing the 4 year deal or by asking for a TON of cash long-term with the Habs. Again, this SEEMS to be the strategy his camp is pursuing. Would be nice if he showed this team, the fans that he means what he says about loving Montreal and wanting to play his career here. If that's what you want, understand that forgoing a few million (overall, in the long term) for yourself improves the chances that the team you play on becomes a contender. Do you want a Cup or just more money and "fame"? Problem is we won't know how much of this is actually PK.
Meehan played the part of Fehr today, by going on Sportsnet and going public...part of a strategy...

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01-15-2013, 07:10 PM
  #271
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Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
I could produce an essay on the matter, but the short and simple thesis is that judging defensemen on straight points is a terrible practice. It tell you very little about value since their point totals are based just as much on situation as talent.

Suffice to say, Del Zotto is a 2nd pairing puck mover and PP specialist, Subban is a 1st pairing two-way defenseman whole plays all high-leverage situations. That's why aren't directly comparable.

Or you can say their offensive value is comparable, but Subban does a bunch of other very important things on top of his offense that Del Zotto doesn't.
I wish there was a 'talks to goalposts' app I could install on my phone that I could just activate whenever I wanted to concisely and intelligently show someone how wrong they are.

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Old
01-15-2013, 07:14 PM
  #272
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Meehan played the part of Fehr today, by going on Sportsnet and going public...part of a strategy...
I wonder what is going through Markov's head. On the one hand, if it's PK being a punk and not helping the team out, I can see him being pissed (I would be afraid of a pissed Markov). If he clearly sees that his own agent = Alan Walsh, I hope he has some choice words for him. That said, he did get him a pretty good contract (which I maintain was worth it).

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01-15-2013, 07:22 PM
  #273
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It's becoming an awful situation and one I find myself flip flopping on constantly.

Subban has every right to ask for a 5+ year deal when you look around the league at what other young stars have gotten coming out of their ELC. That was the market pre-lockout and the cap is not going down significantly in years 1 and 2 of this CBA.

But at the same time, Bergevin has every right to feel like has the leverage since Subban is a RFA with no arbitration rights. The only leverage Subban and Meehan have is an offer sheet or the threat of it.

Still, I find Bergy's reported ''it has to be 2 years for the 2nd contract'' policy to be stubborn.

Subban hears everyone say Max Pac-Price-Subban is the trio we are building around, he sees those other 2 get 6 year deals this summer...AND Max Pac is only a few months older, they were in the same draft class, Max has arguably done less in the NHL than P.K. ...so of course Subban wants that type of deal too.

What if this team starts 1-4 with Subban not signed? What do you think the fans will be chanting by the end of that 5th game vs Winnipeg? This could become an epic disaster for the Habs brass from a PR standpoint. On the other hand, if this team is 4-1 after 5 games, Subban loses some of his leverage. It's a tight rope act for both sides.

I'd give him the 5+ years personally. It's like buying a stock of an emerging company - it's hard to imagine Subban won't improve from where he is now. What is the worst that can happen, you sign him to that deal, something happens and you want to move him by year 2 or 3? You'd still get a nice return. If giving him 5+ years ''ruffles feathers in the locker room'', then it's further proof that this team is going nowhere until we turn the leadership of the team to the actual core group instead of the aging brigade that is currently in leadership roles.

All of this is why I don't want to burn Galchenyuk's ELC this year. If we do burn it this year, in summer 2015 will probably be having these same convos about him I suspect if Bergevin still has this stubborn 2nd contract policy: ''oh but we can't give him a big deal now even though he's a star, he's only played 2 and half seasons in the league, gotta give him a bridge contract!''.

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Old
01-15-2013, 07:31 PM
  #274
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I can tell you one thing...Gauthier woulda got er done

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01-15-2013, 07:31 PM
  #275
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Originally Posted by overlords View Post
I wish there was a 'talks to goalposts' app I could install on my phone that I could just activate whenever I wanted to concisely and intelligently show someone how wrong they are.
At the very least there needs to be a call sign of some sort to summon Talk to Goalposts to the rescue whenever we need some facts.

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