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01-15-2013, 07:32 PM
  #276
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Bergevin MUST make a Del Zotto-ish offer and stand by it ..... Price - Pacs signed the 2year bridge to FA deal - so as an organization, it makes sense as the standard has been SET already. I know the NHL are hoping that the HABS set a new precedent as well and don't let the player "win".

I see the HABS making a point of PK as a player not accepting similar terms and salary as Del Zotto and he becomes a fans nightmare - as HE is the reason HE is not playing!

Bergevin won't blink is my opinion!

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01-15-2013, 07:35 PM
  #277
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I can tell you one thing...Gauthier woulda got er done
Honestly, I agree.

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01-15-2013, 07:37 PM
  #278
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Originally Posted by AcadiaAxeMan View Post
Bergevin MUST make a Del Zotto-ish offer and stand by it ..... Price - Pacs signed the 2year bridge to FA deal - so as an organization, it makes sense as the standard has been SET already. I know the NHL are hoping that the HABS set a new precedent as well and don't let the player "win".

I see the HABS making a point of PK as a player not accepting similar terms and salary as Del Zotto and he becomes a fans nightmare - as HE is the reason HE is not playing!

Bergevin won't blink is my opinion!
The problem is PK is far more valuable than Del Zotto. If that's the line they draw then you can look forward to seeing Subban in Flyer orange this season.

I don't like the idea of handing out Drew Doughty type contracts, but the reality of the situation is that Subban is going to get closer to that then to what Del Zotto got. The only question is on what team.

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01-15-2013, 07:41 PM
  #279
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I would DO this .....maybe?

Brings me back to the HABS/FLYERS deal I proposed:

Subban + Plecks for Couturier + Voracek




Quote:
Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
The problem is PK is far more valuable than Del Zotto. If that's the line they draw then you can look forward to seeing Subban in Flyer orange this season.

I don't like the idea of handing out Drew Doughty type contracts, but the reality of the situation is that Subban is going to get closer to that then to what Del Zotto got. The only question is on what team.

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01-15-2013, 07:47 PM
  #280
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Yes, because we need to continue stocking Atlantic Division teams with young top pairing defencemen....

Enough with the talk of trading him. There's NO ONE on the team or in the system that can replace him.

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01-15-2013, 07:48 PM
  #281
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Originally Posted by habtastic View Post
It's true that the most negativity you hear is from Meehan. Not sure if he's trying some sort of PR stunt. Could even be that Bergevin and PK himself aren't that far apart and things are going ok, but Meehan is playing the devil on his shoulder. I haven't seen anything of real negative substance from the other two. PK is presumably advised not to tweet or talk about it and Bergevin seemed optimistic and as if it were only a matter of ironing out a few things. Again, this is just how it seems. PK could be holding it up. I think many of us understand that PK wants and very well could get a big contract considering he knows he has leverage and being him, we might act similarly, but the thing that gets me is IF he is insisting on setting up a situation where in the future he's guaranteed big money by ANY team that will pay him (and there will be, although it is unwise to be so cocky about it right now), that would be disappointing. He would be doing that by either pushing the 4 year deal or by asking for a TON of cash long-term with the Habs. Again, this SEEMS to be the strategy his camp is pursuing. Would be nice if he showed this team, the fans that he means what he says about loving Montreal and wanting to play his career here. If that's what you want, understand that forgoing a few million (overall, in the long term) for yourself improves the chances that the team you play on becomes a contender. Do you want a Cup or just more money and "fame"? Problem is we won't know how much of this is actually PK.
Excellent post. A must read.

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01-15-2013, 07:53 PM
  #282
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Originally Posted by habtastic View Post
It's true that the most negativity you hear is from Meehan. Not sure if he's trying some sort of PR stunt. Could even be that Bergevin and PK himself aren't that far apart and things are going ok, but Meehan is playing the devil on his shoulder. I haven't seen anything of real negative substance from the other two. PK is presumably advised not to tweet or talk about it and Bergevin seemed optimistic and as if it were only a matter of ironing out a few things. Again, this is just how it seems. PK could be holding it up. I think many of us understand that PK wants and very well could get a big contract considering he knows he has leverage and being him, we might act similarly, but the thing that gets me is IF he is insisting on setting up a situation where in the future he's guaranteed big money by ANY team that will pay him (and there will be, although it is unwise to be so cocky about it right now), that would be disappointing. He would be doing that by either pushing the 4 year deal or by asking for a TON of cash long-term with the Habs. Again, this SEEMS to be the strategy his camp is pursuing. Would be nice if he showed this team, the fans that he means what he says about loving Montreal and wanting to play his career here. If that's what you want, understand that forgoing a few million (overall, in the long term) for yourself improves the chances that the team you play on becomes a contender. Do you want a Cup or just more money and "fame"? Problem is we won't know how much of this is actually PK.
Bergevin will always be "optimistic", if he is a good GM he will anyways. The moment he says something like "PK is being stubborn and hard to negotiatie with" PK's stock drops like a stone.

He will say nothing but happy warm things right up until he is signed or traded. That is how you manage assets, you never say anything bad about something you might want to sell.

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01-15-2013, 07:54 PM
  #283
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Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
I could produce an essay on the matter, but the short and simple thesis is that judging defensemen on straight points is a terrible practice. It tell you very little about value since their point totals are based just as much on situation as talent.

Suffice to say, Del Zotto is a 2nd pairing puck mover and PP specialist, Subban is a 1st pairing two-way defenseman whole plays all high-leverage situations. That's why aren't directly comparable.

Or you can say their offensive value is comparable, but Subban does a bunch of other very important things on top of his offense that Del Zotto doesn't.
Rangers were 13th in goals scored last season(226). Del Zotto was +20 (12th defensemen in the league). They both had 14pts on the PP. MDZ had a short-handed goal.

MDZ had 156 hits, PK had 105.
PK had 113 blocked shots, MDZ had 95.
PK had 88 giveaways, MDZ had 35.

One category PK was way ahead was SOG with 205 compared to 113 for MDZ.

You're right, I can't base my judgment solely on point production. I should have paid more attention to the defensive aspect of their respective games (!)

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01-15-2013, 08:01 PM
  #284
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I will never understand the Pacioretty/Price paid their dues before getting a big contract argument.

Price had 2 good seasons out of 5 before signing his big contract.

Pacioretty had 1 good season and a half in 4 seasons.

Subban had 2 good seasons + playoffs in 2 seasons + playoffs.

He's paid his dues as much as anyone else. If anything, he's never disappointed and developped faster than anyone else. He's just as deserving of a long term deal as Price/Pacioretty if not more.

He's a star already and likely our best player, yes better and more proven than Price who has been wildly inconsistent and had an average season last year unworthy of the big contract he signed.

Bergevin is dumb for wanting to sign him to a short term deal. His value is only going to skyrocket with time. Ink him for 8 years NOW. I don't care if it's 5-6M per. PK is a stud and will be well worth it.

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01-15-2013, 08:03 PM
  #285
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Price is one thing, but Subban has shown more than Pacioretty.

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01-15-2013, 08:07 PM
  #286
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Originally Posted by AcadiaAxeMan View Post
Brings me back to the HABS/FLYERS deal I proposed:

Subban + Plecks for Couturier + Voracek
Pleakec is worth more than Voracek and Subban more than Couturier. Maybe if they add Schenn.

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01-15-2013, 08:09 PM
  #287
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Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
Price is one thing, but Subban has shown more than Pacioretty.
and here i thought we were gonna start the season with our full lineup intact and no distractions.what a fool i am.bergevin is flirting with disaster right now.

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01-15-2013, 08:09 PM
  #288
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What to do with P.K Subban

I know I know there's another thread about P.K but it has been flooded with posts and I wanted to create a new one. So obviously here the question is what should we do with him. He seems to be looking for a contract that's similar to the ones Eberle hall and Skinner had. The Canadiens like to sign their prospects to a 2 year bridge after their ELC before committing any big money to the player (think Price and Pacioretty). So what do you think Montreal should do with P.K try to trade him or sign him for 5-6 million dollars. Before commenting please know that I don't want him to be traded it's that just with the way the negociations are currently going it definitely is a possibility.

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01-15-2013, 08:10 PM
  #289
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Sign him.

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01-15-2013, 08:11 PM
  #290
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sign him, the end

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01-15-2013, 08:12 PM
  #291
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Originally Posted by jhjhjhjhjhjh View Post
I know I know there's another thread about P.K but it has been flooded with posts
Imagine that?


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01-15-2013, 08:14 PM
  #292
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
Pleakec is worth more than Voracek and Subban more than Couturier. Maybe if they add Schenn.
Habs fandom really wants Couturier. He's the most common name in rumors... must be the way he played in the playoffs last year.

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01-15-2013, 08:16 PM
  #293
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Originally Posted by BxN View Post
Rangers were 13th in goals scored last season(226). Del Zotto was +20 (12th defensemen in the league). They both had 14pts on the PP. MDZ had a short-handed goal.

MDZ had 156 hits, PK had 105.
PK had 113 blocked shots, MDZ had 95.
PK had 88 giveaways, MDZ had 35.

One category PK was way ahead was SOG with 205 compared to 113 for MDZ.

You're right, I can't base my judgment solely on point production. I should have paid more attention to the defensive aspect of their respective games (!)
Interesting. Not surprising PK had so many more giveaways but the hit stat is surprising.

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01-15-2013, 08:24 PM
  #294
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Part of me wants to see Subban not sign.

Because then the same ignorant people who are denying Subban's abilities on the ice will have to explain just why the Habs without Subban are such an incredibly bad team.

Those people will probably just blame Subban when we are in 15th place, say that we would be 8th place without him, and argue that on that basis he deserves 3 million per year.

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01-15-2013, 08:27 PM
  #295
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Originally Posted by BxN View Post
Rangers were 13th in goals scored last season(226). Del Zotto was +20 (12th defensemen in the league). They both had 14pts on the PP. MDZ had a short-handed goal.

MDZ had 156 hits, PK had 105.
PK had 113 blocked shots, MDZ had 95.
PK had 88 giveaways, MDZ had 35.

One category PK was way ahead was SOG with 205 compared to 113 for MDZ.

You're right, I can't base my judgment solely on point production. I should have paid more attention to the defensive aspect of their respective games (!)
So what? All you're really trying to argue here is that MDZ had a better year than PK stat wise, and only last season.
There's a lot more that goes into valuing a player. What about the opposition they faced? Who had tougher minutes? Who had more defensive zone starts? How they react under the pressure (by that I mean facing tougher opponents)? The key situations they're put in (when trailing by a goal or defending a late lead)? Their leadership? The impact they have on their respective teams? Their performance over their whole career as opposed to just last season? Their ceiling potential and how far they from it and if it's reachable? Marketability? The depth on their blue lines (the weaker, than the more valuable they become)?

Your approach is so simplistic that it is flawed. I mean, to hear you out one would say you think MDZ is actually better than PK, and I'm guessing you'd agree this is a crazy idea.

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Originally Posted by OneSharpMarble View Post
Why does it look awful? The management has a set of rules on how to deal with player contracts and wont break them. Seems to me that Subban is being the unreasonable one here.

By the sounds of it he is asking for a 4 year deal to take him right to UFA status. Bergevin wants 2 or 6 years like Pacioretty and Price got?
I wonder if you felt the same way about the Gainey era and his set of rule (no re-signing during the season)..
Actually, I know you hated it.
I don't have a problem with putting some rules in to have a good structure. However I think it's stupid/foolish to think nobody they can't be bent. Heck, even Gainey, the most stubborn man, bent his rule for Koivu and re-signed him mid-year.
The two year bridge deal is understandable, but to think every player should go through it without exception is just dumb. What if Gally has three amazing years, where his production consistently goes up every year and ends in his last season at 1ppg while being the top line center, will he has to sign a bridge contract too? Meanwhile others on the same team, who are less talented and contribute less, get bigger deals??
PK deserves more than a bridge deal.

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01-15-2013, 08:28 PM
  #296
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Part of me wants to see Subban not sign.

Because then the same ignorant people who are denying Subban's abilities on the ice will have to explain just why the Habs without Subban are such an incredibly bad team.

Those people will probably just blame Subban when we are in 15th place, say that we would be 8th place without him, and argue that on that basis he deserves 3 million per year.
Nobody has ever denied Subban's importance to the team or how much the Habs would suffer without him. You're building a strawman.

In fact, if there's any reason why people want Subban not to sign, it's to ensure another year of tanking...acknowledging that we'd fall apart wihout him.

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01-15-2013, 08:28 PM
  #297
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Part of me wants to see Subban not sign.

Because then the same ignorant people who are denying Subban's abilities on the ice will have to explain just why the Habs without Subban are such an incredibly bad team.

Those people will probably just Blame Subban when we are in 15th place, say that we would be 8th place without him, and argue that on that basis he deserves 3 million per year.
Very few people are denying his abilities on ice. What we're saying is that he doesn't deserve a big long contract - for the moment - at this stage of his short two year carreer.

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01-15-2013, 08:31 PM
  #298
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Part of me wants to see Subban not sign.

Because then the same ignorant people who are denying Subban's abilities on the ice will have to explain just why the Habs without Subban are such an incredibly bad team.

Those people will probably just blame Subban when we are in 15th place, say that we would be 8th place without him, and argue that on that basis he deserves 3 million per year.
I agree on some level, the idiocy and ignorance of some of the Habs fans is borderline frustrating that I'd just be curious to see their reactions when Habs go to crap, say how much we need a guy like PK on Defense, and see him become a superstar on another team, and whine about it.

It's lame how some fans can live with guys like Cole, Prust, Gionta, Cammalleri, heck even Price, get more than they deserve, but for PK, our best player in a while, it's not worth it.

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01-15-2013, 08:32 PM
  #299
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Originally Posted by hototogisu View Post
Nobody has ever denied Subban's importance to the team or how much the Habs would suffer without him.
You know very well that this isn't true. You're following this thread in detail and you know some people are implying Subban is not a good first pairing dman, that he is in the same class as Pacioretty/Price were when negotiating their second contracts, etc.

I'd say that "how good is Subban" is the central debate of this thread.

I don't think there's anybody who actually thinks Subban is a great player but that expects him to sign 2 years @ 3 million per.

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01-15-2013, 08:32 PM
  #300
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Originally Posted by hototogisu View Post
Nobody has ever denied Subban's importance to the team or how much the Habs would suffer without him. You're building a strawman.

In fact, if there's any reason why people want Subban not to sign, it's to ensure another year of tanking...acknowledging that we'd fall apart wihout him.
We wouldn't tank for another year. If PK doesn't re-sign this year, I don't see him playing another game for us, which likely means more tanking years. Why would he re-sign here if management keep him out? All this for what??

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