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P.K Subban Thread 2.0

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Old
01-15-2013, 08:33 PM
  #301
Watsatheo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scrowe21 View Post
Interesting. Not surprising PK had so many more giveaways but the hit stat is surprising.
It's not that surprising, the Rangers just hit more collectively. It's more Torts than the players. Put Subban on the aggressive style Rangers instead of the passive Habs and he'll rack up even more hits.

Exhibit A - Brad Richards
On Rangers last season: 51 hits in 82 games
4 prior seasons combined: 60 hits (~15 hits/season)

Exhibit B - Anton Stralman
On Rangers last season: 76 hits in 53 games
Prior season: 39 hits in 51 games

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01-15-2013, 08:38 PM
  #302
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Originally Posted by Watsatheo View Post
It's not that surprising, the Rangers just hit more collectively. It's more Torts than the players. Put Subban on the aggressive style Rangers instead of the passive Habs and he'll rack up even more hits.

Exhibit A - Brad Richards
On Rangers last season: 51 hits in 82 games
4 prior seasons combined: 60 hits (~15 hits/season)

Exhibit B - Anton Stralman
On Rangers last season: 76 hits in 53 games
Prior season: 39 hits in 51 games
Another even more likely source for the sudden spike in hits when a player joins the Rangers - their stat keeper is extremely generous with what's considered a "hit".

Considering it's tracked differently and subjectively in all buildings, comparing a stat like hits can be far from a reliable indicator when looking at players from two different teams.

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01-15-2013, 08:38 PM
  #303
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I just fell off my chair when i saw that the mainboard thinks that Ekman-Larsson who played just one season is better than Subban.

Like someone said earlier if Subban was white and didn't play for the habs (because we always grossly overrate our players) he would be consider the best young dman behind only Pietrangelo Karlsson Letang and Doughty.

But when i'm hearing things like OEL, Mcdonagh, Shattenkirk, Carlsson, Kulikov better than Subban i just laugh. The only one that has a case is Mcdonagh but Subban is more complete than him.


Seriously give him 5 per year for 5 years that seems like a fair deal he is a 50 points pmd dman they don't come cheap. Plus he is one of the fastest dman in the league.

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01-15-2013, 08:41 PM
  #304
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
You know very well that this isn't true. You're following this thread in detail and you know some people are implying Subban is not a good first pairing dman, that he is in the same class as Pacioretty/Price were when negotiating their second contracts, etc.

I'd say that "how good is Subban" is the central debate of this thread.

I don't think there's anybody who actually thinks Subban is a great player but that expects him to sign 2 years @ 3 million per.
But some people are really overating him and want Bergevin to give him a 6-7 years long contract at 6 million per season. He might deserve that down the road, but not right now.

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01-15-2013, 08:42 PM
  #305
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I will never understand the Pacioretty/Price paid their dues before getting a big contract argument.

Price had 2 good seasons out of 5 before signing his big contract.

Pacioretty had 1 good season and a half in 4 seasons.

Subban had 2 good seasons + playoffs in 2 seasons + playoffs.

He's paid his dues as much as anyone else. If anything, he's never disappointed and developped faster than anyone else. He's just as deserving of a long term deal as Price/Pacioretty if not more.

He's a star already and likely our best player, yes better and more proven than Price who has been wildly inconsistent and had an average season last year unworthy of the big contract he signed.

Bergevin is dumb for wanting to sign him to a short term deal. His value is only going to skyrocket with time. Ink him for 8 years NOW. I don't care if it's 5-6M per. PK is a stud and will be well worth it.
Agreed. Price also had lost his #1 spot to Halak by the time his ELC ended. He had no negotiation power, and the team actually had to remove the guy that had earned the #1 seed to give it back to the one that was always given it.

PK is ahead of both those guys at the time their ELC ended. He is currently on par with them, if not even higher, so he deserves just as big a deal as them. Considering his undeniable superstar potential, and the way he's progressed over the two years he's been here, I'd say he has an even bigger chance of succeeding in reaching his max potential than the other two guys. So no doubt he deserves a big deal.

What's even more frustrating, is that I haven't read one person actually say that they didn't think PK will end up deserving a big deal. Seems everybody agrees he will become a very very good defenseman. But for some reason, they don't want to give him a big deal now because in two years, he hasn't proven himself enough for it, and apparently that warrants moving him. It's retarded.

Sign him to whatever he wants. Kid will be worth every penny.

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01-15-2013, 08:42 PM
  #306
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We truly have some wonderful fans. We get a top talent and people want him traded. This fanbase....I don't understand.

I also don't understand this 2nd contract being compared to Price and Max. Price lost his JOB to the backup. Max had just a half year of good play after being a disappointment. There's no comparison.

I do find it very strange that Bergevin and PK's group did not work on a deal before the lockout. Makes no sense really.

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01-15-2013, 08:43 PM
  #307
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Originally Posted by hototogisu View Post
Another even more likely source for the sudden spike in hits when a player joins the Rangers - their stat keeper is extremely generous with what's considered a "hit".

Considering it's tracked differently and subjectively in all buildings, comparing a stat like hits can be far from a reliable indicator when looking at players from two different teams.
Though this is true in some cases I think the Rangers leading the league in road game hits cancels out any home building bonus.

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01-15-2013, 08:45 PM
  #308
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
You know very well that this isn't true. You're following this thread in detail and you know some people are implying Subban is not a good first pairing dman, that he is in the same class as Pacioretty/Price were when negotiating their second contracts, etc.

I'd say that "how good is Subban" is the central debate of this thread.

I don't think there's anybody who actually thinks Subban is a great player but that expects him to sign 2 years @ 3 million per.
I think their are people weighing his importance and accomplishments with regards to the type of contract they think/hope he will get, but not many are flat-out denying how much the Habs need him.

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01-15-2013, 08:46 PM
  #309
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Originally Posted by Watsatheo View Post
Though this is true in some cases I think the Rangers leading the league in road game hits cancels out any home building bonus.
Thank you for doing the research I was too lazy to do. Shut me right up

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01-15-2013, 08:46 PM
  #310
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Originally Posted by Lebowski View Post
What do you compare their contract then, if you acknowledge yourself that Subban is on a different level?

Production wise, I think it's simple to explain. Subban played on an inept power-play on the last seeded team in the east while MDZ played on one of the East top contender.

I don't know if he sees himself too big. To be honest, we don't know much, if at all, about the whole negotiation process.
Saying he played on an inept PP isn't a satisfactory answer because Subban was supposed to make it better. There were some good offensive players on the Habs' first PP unit.

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01-15-2013, 08:47 PM
  #311
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Originally Posted by Habtchum View Post
But some people are really overating him and want Bergevin to give him a 6-7 years long contract at 6 million per season. He might deserve that down the road, but not right now.
The market around the league shows that he is worth about that ballpark.

The salaries of other dmen on the Habs shows that he is worth about that ballpark.

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01-15-2013, 08:48 PM
  #312
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Originally Posted by Habtchum View Post
But some people are really overating him and want Bergevin to give him a 6-7 years long contract at 6 million per season. He might deserve that down the road, but not right now.
But Dude, you know he'll likely be worth that down the road, and by down the road, we're not talking in 4 years. Not if he keeps up his progression. He wasn't worth it last year, but he could very well be worth it as early as next year, or the one after. So, what is it that the Habs risk in signing him for that long? It's not like he will take steps backwards and not be a top 2 D anymore. Really, the logic here of some people is just non-existent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Watsatheo View Post
It's not that surprising, the Rangers just hit more collectively. It's more Torts than the players. Put Subban on the aggressive style Rangers instead of the passive Habs and he'll rack up even more hits.

Exhibit A - Brad Richards
On Rangers last season: 51 hits in 82 games
4 prior seasons combined: 60 hits (~15 hits/season)

Exhibit B - Anton Stralman
On Rangers last season: 76 hits in 53 games
Prior season: 39 hits in 51 games
Also, every hit PK threw, he'd get attention from players and nobody on the Habs to really protect him. He had 12 opponent forwards always gunning after him, sometimes, even opposing Dmen went after him. Different situation in NYR. I expect him to be more physical this year considering the guys they brought in.

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01-15-2013, 08:48 PM
  #313
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So what? All you're really trying to argue here is that MDZ had a better year than PK stat wise, and only last season.
There's a lot more that goes into valuing a player. What about the opposition they faced? Who had tougher minutes? Who had more defensive zone starts? How they react under the pressure (by that I mean facing tougher opponents)? The key situations they're put in (when trailing by a goal or defending a late lead)? Their leadership? The impact they have on their respective teams? Their performance over their whole career as opposed to just last season? Their ceiling potential and how far they from it and if it's reachable? Marketability? The depth on their blue lines (the weaker, than the more valuable they become)?

Your approach is so simplistic that it is flawed. I mean, to hear you out one would say you think MDZ is actually better than PK, and I'm guessing you'd agree this is a crazy idea.
Hmm.

I'm not trying to convince you that MDZ is a better player, I'm trying to make you realize how Marc Bergevin is using MDZ as a fair comparative. Wasn't it obvious?

His ceiling? Bergevin would like to discover it within the next two years.. which is why he would prefer signing Subban to that term. If he deserves the big bucks then he'll be able to sign a richer long-term contract then.

Most of your questions can be answered with the stats I posted. And you're right, we unfortunately don't have many seasons to base our judgment on (in both cases).

Truth is, Del Zotto played better than Subban last year.. and he ended up signing a two-year contract for 2.55M per. What is MDZ's ceiling? Why didn't he sign a 6 year deal at 5M per season?

I'll repeat it again. I'm not suggesting Subban should sign for the same amount as MDZ. I'm putting myself in Bergevin's shoes.. between 3M-3.5M per season for 2 years is reasonable for a second contract. PK has not won a Norris trophy yet, nor has he been nominated, not even close.. yet he wants slightly-under Drew Doughty money?

I've made my point. Good night

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Old
01-15-2013, 08:49 PM
  #314
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Originally Posted by hototogisu View Post
I think their are people weighing his importance and accomplishments with regards to the type of contract they think/hope he will get, but not many are flat-out denying how much the Habs need him.
I don't see how anybody can really think the Habs need Subban but not want him if he expects more than 3 million per year.

If he's one of the best players on the team, then he should be paid as such... that's almost circular.

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Old
01-15-2013, 08:51 PM
  #315
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This situation is really becoming untenable. We finally get the lockout solved (while PK is on Toronto radio/tv the whole time...I'm there, watched it all) and now THIS.

It seemed like PK was sooo interested in getting back to playing hockey during his radio spots when discussing the lockout and all hockey issues. He then pimps his brand out like crazy (I did not have a shortage of seeing him on TV) and now comes back, understandably with a big head. I hate to not like his attitude and I'm not one who gives into the "PK has a bad attitude/cancer" mentality so this whole process is disturbing in that it feels exactly like the inability to get a deal done as displayed by the NHL and PA. I would love to be a fly on the wall. Each knows the other's POV by now. What is it that's going to change? I know that negotiation is about coming to a middle ground, but why is it taking so long? Are they playing a serious game of chicken?

I would hate to think that PK doesn't understand the mentality (and a good one to have going forward) that no one is bigger than the team, that you need to earn your rewards and that it's not all about swag and tv spots and being the darling of the toronto media scene (in the offseason). Unfortunately, this delay gives me cause to worry that this is the case. Obviously I don't know what's really going on. I wish I did.

He better be playing on Saturday. Missing the home opener after a lockout, against the Leafs? That's how you get the fans to turn against you.
So PK should just sign for whatever's offered? It's a negotiation, sheesh.

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01-15-2013, 08:54 PM
  #316
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He's our #1 dman but people want him to be satisfied with being the 4th highest paid dman? LOL.

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01-15-2013, 08:54 PM
  #317
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Hypothetically, let us speculate that Alex Galchenyuk does as well in the next few years as PK Subban has done;

Let's say he gets 40 points in 48 games this year, and becomes our number 1 center for 2013-2014 and 2014-2015, with 75 and 68 point seasons all the while contributing on the penalty kill, and that he totally dominates in the eastern conference playoffs, getting us into overtimes and humiliating opposing defensemen;

What contract should Bergevin offer him in the summer of 2015? 2 years @ 3.5 million per? Because no player is bigger than the team.

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01-15-2013, 08:54 PM
  #318
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Problem is that do we have to pay for great services to the Habs? Or for potential for years to come? We've paid Gorges, 3,9 M$ per because of how good he's been to the Habs. Yet, it makes no sense to me that a potential like Subban be paid under what Gorges will be making this year. Mind you, I am amongst the ones who believes that Josh was overpaid.

I don't get the hard negotiation though and especially in the Subban camp. People have had enough from the lockout, and then we have to deal with that player-GM lockout. With clearly the idea that Subban is asking way too much. This is Montreal.....takes way less for people to start hating somebody. Can't imagine if he gets what he wants and starts playing badly.....won't be pretty in Montreal. Subban should think about giving himself some experience and then ask for the world. Yet, to make sure everybody is happy, give him 4 years at a cap hit of 4,75 M$. Then, in 4 years, he becomes a 6 M$ d-man for 8 years.

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01-15-2013, 08:56 PM
  #319
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I can tell you one thing...Gauthier woulda got er done
Gauthier would have traded him for a third liner 2 days after the end of last season.

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01-15-2013, 08:57 PM
  #320
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Truth is, Del Zotto played better than Subban last year..
Whaaaaaaat? Talks to Goalposts is needed and ASAP.

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01-15-2013, 08:58 PM
  #321
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Gauthier would have traded him for a third liner 2 days after the end of last season.
PK Subban for Jason Allison. Let's go Pierre, do it!

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01-15-2013, 08:58 PM
  #322
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So much bickering.

PK is our best player. Yes better than Price, IMO.

You need to sign him. I stand by my view though, if Bergevin is just going to keep PK out of the line up all season you need to unload him ASAP to maximize the return. The longer this drags out the lower his value, especially with the type of media coverage this would get in MTL and the rumors that would be flying around.

Signing him is the best thing for the org though. I'd rather overpay Subban by 1 mil than Prust. Bergevin seems like he's trying to teach PK a lesson..

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01-15-2013, 08:59 PM
  #323
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Problem is that do we have to pay for great services to the Habs? Or for potential for years to come? We've paid Gorges, 3,9 M$ per because of how good he's been to the Habs. Yet, it makes no sense to me that a potential like Subban be paid under what Gorges will be making this year. Mind you, I am amongst the ones who believes that Josh was overpaid.

I don't get the hard negotiation though and especially in the Subban camp. People have had enough from the lockout, and then we have to deal with that player-GM lockout. With clearly the idea that Subban is asking way too much. This is Montreal.....takes way less for people to start hating somebody. Can't imagine if he gets what he wants and starts playing badly.....won't be pretty in Montreal. Subban should think about giving himself some experience and then ask for the world. Yet, to make sure everybody is happy, give him 4 years at a cap hit of 4,75 M$. Then, in 4 years, he becomes a 6 M$ d-man for 8 years.
We bought Gorges UFA years. Slight difference.

If we give Subban a 4-year contract, he then becomes UFA and the problem is WAY bigger!

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Old
01-15-2013, 09:02 PM
  #324
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So much bickering.

PK is our best player. Yes better than Price, IMO.

You need to sign him. I stand by my view though, if Bergevin is just going to keep PK out of the line up all season you need to unload him ASAP to maximize the return. The longer this drags out the lower his value, especially with the type of media coverage this would get in MTL and the rumors that would be flying around.

Signing him is the best thing for the org though. I'd rather overpay Subban by 1 mil than Prust. Bergevin seems like he's trying to teach PK a lesson..
Just a question....is PK READY to get that much money? Will he really be our best player? I also believe that the kid has to potential to be our best player. I just feel he's not there yet. And frankly, in a cap world, I prefer we overpay in years than in money. Which makes me wonder about Bergevin strategy if he is indeed playing hard on the years. Would make no sense to me.

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01-15-2013, 09:03 PM
  #325
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The Habs are crazy not to want PK on a long-term deal.

Does anyone know if RFA compensation has changed with the new CBA?

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