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Old
01-15-2013, 09:05 PM
  #326
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Originally Posted by BxN View Post
We bought Gorges UFA years. Slight difference.

If we give Subban a 4-year contract, he then becomes UFA and the problem is WAY bigger!
But you bought a guy who might be #5 on some teams. It should not have been that high. And especially when you thought you would have had some "hometown discount", concept that doesn't seem to exist here.

And giving Subban that contract is not a problem. Every team will agree that at the end of that contract, chances are he will be worth 6-6.5 M$. We have the luxury to give a 8-year contract while the other would only be able to give 7 years. Who the heck will really overpay to get the same money in the end? And if you have any indication that he will indeed move, you trade him to a team and permit them to negotiate with him (can we still do that?).

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01-15-2013, 09:14 PM
  #327
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Originally Posted by JGRB View Post
So much bickering.

PK is our best player. Yes better than Price, IMO.

You need to sign him. I stand by my view though, if Bergevin is just going to keep PK out of the line up all season you need to unload him ASAP to maximize the return. The longer this drags out the lower his value, especially with the type of media coverage this would get in MTL and the rumors that would be flying around.
Price is better and has a bigger impact. I would even make an argument that Markov will have a bigger impact for our team this year...his presence on the powerplay should exceed what Subban contributed last year. It's great to be solid defensively and put up a few points, but our powerplay wins us games (or at least it used to). Subban has alot to learn from the General.

Right now, he's probably 3rd/4th best on our team in terms of contribution.

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01-15-2013, 09:17 PM
  #328
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Just a question....is PK READY to get that much money? Will he really be our best player? I also believe that the kid has to potential to be our best player. I just feel he's not there yet. And frankly, in a cap world, I prefer we overpay in years than in money. Which makes me wonder about Bergevin strategy if he is indeed playing hard on the years. Would make no sense to me.
It's a gamble. I think, like you, PK will become that player though.

I don't believe he's worth that money today just like I don't believe Price is worth his 6.5m either. Originally I was hoping for around a 4.5m contract for Subban, the more I think of it the more I'd be willing to accept a clone of Hammer's old contract. Would I go much higher? Not sure, I'd probably definitely let him sit a few games before I got back to him and let him sweat a little bit.

If he is truly asking Doughty money, you have to put him on the market and see exactly who is willing to pay him that and what they are offering up for him. It would be a blow, but maybe we could somewhat salvage the situation. I'm not saying to deal him at all, but I do think it's wise to prepare ourselves to look at that possibility.

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01-15-2013, 09:18 PM
  #329
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I think Gorges was overpaid. Bergevin's mistake may have been the order in which he completed the deals. Should have been Pk setting the bar for Gorges, not the other way around.

I think the days of having "1st" and "2nd" deals after ELC will soon be a thing of the past. There will be RFA and UFA years and they will have values accordingly. Subban's contract will be part of the redefinition.

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Old
01-15-2013, 09:20 PM
  #330
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Originally Posted by Agnostic View Post
I think Gorges was overpaid. Bergevin's mistake may have been the order in which he completed the deals. Should have been Pk setting the bar for Gorges, not the other way around.

I think the days of having "1st" and "2nd" deals after ELC will soon be a thing of the past. There will be RFA and UFA years and they will have values accordingly. Subban's contract will be part of the redefinition.
Gorges was signed to that deal months before Bergevin arrived.

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If he is truly asking Doughty money, you have to put him on the market and see exactly who is willing to pay him that and what they are offering up for him. It would be a blow, but maybe we could somewhat salvage the situation. I'm not saying to deal him at all, but I do think it's wise to prepare ourselves to look at that possibility.
Screw that. He has no leverage here aside from an OS. If he wants Doughty money, he's free to seek out an offer sheet.

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01-15-2013, 09:21 PM
  #331
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If Price is our best player then we are the worst team in the league, with the way he played last year Price was maybe 5th at best Behind Cole, paciorretty, Subban and Desharnais.

Price is part of the backbone for sure but he is not our best player, I think right now it's between Patches and Subban they hold the more trade value and they are in the learning curve ( as is price). Price also has a good market value but he wouldn't fetch as much since he is a goalie. It's hard to evaluate it's more about the utility than being better

For better Overall player a case can be made for Plekanec that those everything but the room cleaning for this team and does it well, we are ****ed without him no doubt.

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Old
01-15-2013, 09:22 PM
  #332
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Originally Posted by Marc the Habs Fan View Post
Gorges was signed to that deal months before Bergevin arrived.



Screw that. He has no leverage.
Oh yeah, that's right. Should have smelled Gauthier on that one.

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Old
01-15-2013, 09:24 PM
  #333
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Hmm.

I'm not trying to convince you that MDZ is a better player, I'm trying to make you realize how Marc Bergevin is using MDZ as a fair comparative. Wasn't it obvious?

His ceiling? Bergevin would like to discover it within the next two years.. which is why he would prefer signing Subban to that term. If he deserves the big bucks then he'll be able to sign a richer long-term contract then.

Most of your questions can be answered with the stats I posted. And you're right, we unfortunately don't have many seasons to base our judgment on (in both cases).

Truth is, Del Zotto played better than Subban last year.. and he ended up signing a two-year contract for 2.55M per. What is MDZ's ceiling? Why didn't he sign a 6 year deal at 5M per season?

I'll repeat it again. I'm not suggesting Subban should sign for the same amount as MDZ. I'm putting myself in Bergevin's shoes.. between 3M-3.5M per season for 2 years is reasonable for a second contract. PK has not won a Norris trophy yet, nor has he been nominated, not even close.. yet he wants slightly-under Drew Doughty money?

I've made my point. Good night
First off all, we don't know if Bergevin is using MDZ as a comparable, but I'm hoping not because he'd get destroyed and laughed at.

Second, potential is always considered when signing a player. Otherwise, there's no freaking way Price is worth 6years at 39M. Not a chance. And PK has outplayed Price, and his potential is just as big, if not bigger.

Third, no, most of these questions are not answered by how many SOG, or HITS or GIV a player has done, nor by goals or assists, not even Time on Ice. Just look at the DD line that was the most used but benefited from more sheltered minutes.

Fourth, you are proving my point that all you did was look at a few stats line and came to the flawed conclusion that MDZ played better than PK. Bottom line is, if MDZ was here instead of PK last season, he would have looked a lot more like Raphael Diaz than PK Subban. But you don't seem to understand this. The reason why MDZ can't get that big deal is because his ceiling is nowhere near Subban's, nor is he the top defender of NYR, not even top 2, he's never been. He's a top 4 guy, you do know this right? He is behind Girardi, Mcdonagh, and Staal on the depth chart. PK is at the very top of ours, and was for 3/4 of his time here.

Fifth, no 3-3.5M for 2 years is an insulting contract. You have guys like Gorges making 3.9M, Kaberle making 4.25, and even Markov, who has barely played in 3years and is still a question mark as to just how good he can be again, making 5.75M. Today, PK is above all these guys, he brings more to the table than every one of them, he's also much younger and has a higher ceiling (Markov is the only one that can surpass him but that's only IF he's back to his prime, but even then, PK might still have a higher ceiling) than all of them. Yet, he's expected to take less cash than all of them. How does this seem fair to you exactly??

You've made your point, and it sucks big time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BxN View Post
We bought Gorges UFA years. Slight difference.

If we give Subban a 4-year contract, he then becomes UFA and the problem is WAY bigger!
There is no problem!! What do you want exactly?? To sign PK for peanuts for 2 years, and then get him to sign again for more peanuts, just a bit bigger??
Jesus Christ man, he is your top Dman, he is a top 30 Dman in the league already. Signing him is a no brainer and a must. It will never be a mistake unless he suffers a freak injury or accident or sickness. Otherwise he won't just start playing like crap. Makes no sense at all.

Signing him at 3-3.5M would be an unimaginable steal. It's ridiculous. If I'm PK I don't even accept it, and I'm just a fan of the habs looking in. I can only imagine what he thinks of the offer if that's actual one.

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Old
01-15-2013, 09:24 PM
  #334
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Originally Posted by Shabutie View Post
Price is better and has a bigger impact. I would even make an argument that Markov will have a bigger impact for our team this year...his presence on the powerplay should exceed what Subban contributed last year. It's great to be solid defensively and put up a few points, but our powerplay wins us games (or at least it used to). Subban has alot to learn from the General.

Right now, he's probably 3rd/4th best on our team in terms of contribution.
It's subject to much debate but I have no problem with your view.

I think Markov has to prove he can return to that form, if he does than I totally agree with you.

Price of 2010-11? I agree with you. Price of last season was quite good, but IMO he wasn't as good as Subban last year. PK was rock solid in the second half.

What PK needs to do to cement himself is prove he can dominate an entire schedule and not just the second half of it.. Cause that's
been the case in both his seasons.

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Old
01-15-2013, 09:35 PM
  #335
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Originally Posted by Shabutie View Post
Price is better and has a bigger impact. I would even make an argument that Markov will have a bigger impact for our team this year...his presence on the powerplay should exceed what Subban contributed last year. It's great to be solid defensively and put up a few points, but our powerplay wins us games (or at least it used to). Subban has alot to learn from the General.

Right now, he's probably 3rd/4th best on our team in terms of contribution.
I'm truly baffled..

Price can have a bigger impact because he plays goalie. You only have one of them on the ice. If he decides to play like a minor pro back up, then PK can be a superstar all he wants, we'll still lose. So I agree there.
However, Price being better? I disagree. PK is ahead of where Price was at his age, he's outperformed him.

As for Markov, the guy has barely played in 3 years. What you're saying is just wishful thinking. It could very well happen, but there's no way to know. Markov is a huge question mark, you can believe anything you want, you have 0 argument to back up this theory. He's been away for a very long time. Anybody can say the opposite of what you just said and it would be just as credible. Matter of fact, someone can say Markov will likely suffer another big injury and they'd have more arguments than you considering the recent past. So, throwing this idea that he'll be better than PK is meaningless really.
Also, the PP winning us games has always covered up the fact that we were a mediocre team. We got by thanks to it, but when a team was able to shut it down, we'd lose and look horrible. That's not quite the way a team should be built. You know who's a damn good player at ES?? Subban.

This should not be a Price is better than PK, and so is Markov, and so is another player apparently. PK has superstar potential not too far off from his fingertips right now. We need to keep him to keep progressing and be part of our core. Even if he's overpaid, he'll likely end up earning his contract more so than all the other crappier players we overpaid and didn't earn their paychecks.

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Old
01-15-2013, 09:35 PM
  #336
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Originally Posted by hockeyfan2k11 View Post
He's our #1 dman but people want him to be satisfied with being the 4th highest paid dman? LOL.
So you want him to leapfrog over Dmen who have put in years reaching their present salaries? Has Subban ever finished a season as an all-star? He may be the best on our bottom-finishing team but he never opened eyes like Bobby Orr, who was immediately recognized as a potential all time great. I saw Orr in his rookie season, so I know what I'm talking about. What will you say next, that Pacioretty is our Bobby Hull?

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01-15-2013, 09:41 PM
  #337
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Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck View Post
So you want him to leapfrog over Dmen who have put in years reaching their present salaries? Has Subban ever finished a season as an all-star? He may be the best on our bottom-finishing team but he never opened eyes like Bobby Orr, who was immediately recognized as a potential all time great. I saw Orr in his rookie season, so I know what I'm talking about. What will you say next, that Pacioretty is our Bobby Hull?
PK finished his rookie season as an All-Star. He was part of the All-Star rookie team.
Last year, care to name me any player that looked good under our super Cunneyworth era?? Other than the DD line, who looked that good?
Remember how long it took Chara before looking great? PK already looks great. Who cares how long it took Gorges to reach his cash, he brings a lot more than Gorges to the table. Does Gorges sell more merchandise than PK? What about Kaberle, are you suggesting Kaby deserves more cash than PK?
It's ridiculous. PK is our best Dman, the only way for him to drop the #2 is if Markov goes back to super form, which is far from a done deal.

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01-15-2013, 09:42 PM
  #338
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
First off all, we don't know if Bergevin is using MDZ as a comparable, but I'm hoping not because he'd get destroyed and laughed at.

Second, potential is always considered when signing a player. Otherwise, there's no freaking way Price is worth 6years at 39M. Not a chance. And PK has outplayed Price, and his potential is just as big, if not bigger.

Third, no, most of these questions are not answered by how many SOG, or HITS or GIV a player has done, nor by goals or assists, not even Time on Ice. Just look at the DD line that was the most used but benefited from more sheltered minutes.

Fourth, you are proving my point that all you did was look at a few stats line and came to the flawed conclusion that MDZ played better than PK. Bottom line is, if MDZ was here instead of PK last season, he would have looked a lot more like Raphael Diaz than PK Subban. But you don't seem to understand this. The reason why MDZ can't get that big deal is because his ceiling is nowhere near Subban's, nor is he the top defender of NYR, not even top 2, he's never been. He's a top 4 guy, you do know this right? He is behind Girardi, Mcdonagh, and Staal on the depth chart. PK is at the very top of ours, and was for 3/4 of his time here.

Fifth, no 3-3.5M for 2 years is an insulting contract. You have guys like Gorges making 3.9M, Kaberle making 4.25, and even Markov, who has barely played in 3years and is still a question mark as to just how good he can be again, making 5.75M. Today, PK is above all these guys, he brings more to the table than every one of them, he's also much younger and has a higher ceiling (Markov is the only one that can surpass him but that's only IF he's back to his prime, but even then, PK might still have a higher ceiling) than all of them. Yet, he's expected to take less cash than all of them. How does this seem fair to you exactly??

You've made your point, and it sucks big time.



There is no problem!! What do you want exactly?? To sign PK for peanuts for 2 years, and then get him to sign again for more peanuts, just a bit bigger??
Jesus Christ man, he is your top Dman, he is a top 30 Dman in the league already. Signing him is a no brainer and a must. It will never be a mistake unless he suffers a freak injury or accident or sickness. Otherwise he won't just start playing like crap. Makes no sense at all.

Signing him at 3-3.5M would be an unimaginable steal. It's ridiculous. If I'm PK I don't even accept it, and I'm just a fan of the habs looking in. I can only imagine what he thinks of the offer if that's actual one.
LOL

Sure let's give him the friggin moon after only TWO full seasons. Makes a whole lot of sense. Let's just sign him to a major money deal because he looks like the kind of player who has a huge ceiling. We can't go wrong! He has proved it in the 160 games he's played in this league!

The difference between your opinion and mine is you're seeing the situation from PK's point of view (I'm worth more than Gorges and Kaberle because I played more and produced more) and I'm seeing it from the organization's (Second contract, starting third regular season, wild card, high risk high reward). Bergevin is being cautious because he doesn't own a crystal ball like you do.

It's not even worth arguying with you because you'll always be right in your own mind.

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Old
01-15-2013, 09:52 PM
  #339
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Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck View Post
So you want him to leapfrog over Dmen who have put in years reaching their present salaries? Has Subban ever finished a season as an all-star? He may be the best on our bottom-finishing team but he never opened eyes like Bobby Orr, who was immediately recognized as a potential all time great. I saw Orr in his rookie season, so I know what I'm talking about. What will you say next, that Pacioretty is our Bobby Hull?
Neither of those DMen have been all stars in years. You really think Subban should make less than Kaberle and Gorges?

Who cares about Bobby Orr? Not quite sure what that has to do with anything. Whether you think Subban is terrible, or not...he is still this team's top Dman and should be compensated accordingly.

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01-15-2013, 09:52 PM
  #340
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Price is better and has a bigger impact. I would even make an argument that Markov will have a bigger impact for our team this year...his presence on the powerplay should exceed what Subban contributed last year. It's great to be solid defensively and put up a few points, but our powerplay wins us games (or at least it used to). Subban has alot to learn from the General.

Right now, he's probably 3rd/4th best on our team in terms of contribution.
He's pretty easily our top skater. Markov hasn't done anythIng for years and is in his mid 30s...

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01-15-2013, 09:52 PM
  #341
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LOL

Sure let's give him the friggin moon after only TWO full seasons. Makes a whole lot of sense. Let's just sign him to a major money deal because he looks like the kind of player who has a huge ceiling. We can't go wrong! He has proved it in the 160 games he's played in this league!

The difference between your opinion and mine is you're seeing the situation from PK's point of view (I'm worth more than Gorges and Kaberle because I played more and produced more) and I'm seeing it from the organization's (Second contract, starting third regular season, wild card, high risk high reward). Bergevin is being cautious because he doesn't own a crystal ball like you do.

It's not even worth arguying with you because you'll always be right in your own mind.
PK is proven.

Rocked the OHL after being drafted, then rocked the AHL, then rocked 160 regular season NHL games and 4 NHL playoff rounds.

160 regular season games 4 playoff rounds is a fabulous sample size. It's sad how some of you are so ignorant of statistics that you would think otherwise.

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Old
01-15-2013, 09:55 PM
  #342
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LOL

Sure let's give him the friggin moon after only TWO full seasons. Makes a whole lot of sense. Let's just sign him to a major money deal because he looks like the kind of player who has a huge ceiling. We can't go wrong! He has proved it in the 160 games he's played in this league!

The difference between your opinion and mine is you're seeing the situation from PK's point of view (I'm worth more than Gorges and Kaberle because I played more and produced more) and I'm seeing it from the organization's (Second contract, starting third regular season, wild card, high risk high reward). Bergevin is being cautious because he doesn't own a crystal ball like you do.

It's not even worth arguying with you because you'll always be right in your own mind.
Explain what is the high risk exactly? You still haven't answered this. PK is a proven commodity. What he hasn't proven yet is that he's a superstar, but the potential is definitely there, and nobody denies it.

The fact it is a 2nd contract is irrelevant. What if Gally excels in his years under his ELC? To the point where he is our #1 Forward, outperforms all other forwards. Are we going to have to give him a 2year deal as well, worth little cash, just because it's been 2-3years? Did you have to weight 4-5 years for players like Myers or Carlsson to give them bigger deals?? There's a bunch of players that go straight to larger deals right after their ELC, and they are worth it based on both how they performed and their potential.
Are you incapable of differing players? The ones that are pretty much a sure bet, and the others that are still uncertain as to where their development will bring them?
Also, the team you play on makes it a big difference. If Markov and Kaberle were back in their prime, and PK was our 3rd guy looking in, his value would decrease. But now, we have nobody like him, and nobody in our ranks that is set to even be close to his potential, so that gives him even more power.

I'm not saying give him the moon. Doughty got close to 60M. I'm talking about giving him a bit less than Price, which is close to half of what Doughty got. Far from the mood.

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01-15-2013, 09:56 PM
  #343
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I'm truly baffled..

Price can have a bigger impact because he plays goalie. You only have one of them on the ice. If he decides to play like a minor pro back up, then PK can be a superstar all he wants, we'll still lose. So I agree there.
However, Price being better? I disagree. PK is ahead of where Price was at his age, he's outperformed him.
We're not discussing age/development. The only fair way to say "who's better" when both play different positions is either to compare their impact on the team or to compare them to other players in their position. I could say that Price is a top 10 goalie in the NHL, Subban has a long way to go to be a top 10 D in the NHL (imo).

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Originally Posted by Kriss E
As for Markov, the guy has barely played in 3 years. What you're saying is just wishful thinking. It could very well happen, but there's no way to know. Markov is a huge question mark, you can believe anything you want, you have 0 argument to back up this theory. He's been away for a very long time. Anybody can say the opposite of what you just said and it would be just as credible. Matter of fact, someone can say Markov will likely suffer another big injury and they'd have more arguments than you considering the recent past. So, throwing this idea that he'll be better than PK is meaningless really.
Saying his impact will be better on a hunch that he'll have a great impact on our powerplay is something I stick by. Purely speculation of course, but Markov was always one of the best powerplay quarterbacks in the league. Even in the small amount of games he played last year, you saw glimpses of Markov's intelligence and vision on the powerplay.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E
This should not be a Price is better than PK, and so is Markov, and so is another player apparently. PK has superstar potential not too far off from his fingertips right now. We need to keep him to keep progressing and be part of our core. Even if he's overpaid, he'll likely end up earning his contract more so than all the other crappier players we overpaid and didn't earn their paychecks.
But is his self-worth higher than his value to the team? Seems that way... Pacioretty, accepted a deal for a margin of what he's worth because he wanted us to remain competitive for the duration of his contract (gives us more cap space). If PK isn't willing to take a slight discount, I'd say ship him off for valuables.

Again hard to say whether Meehan, P.K or Bergevin are playing hardball, but I'm starting to sour on P.K and I'm sure other fans are as well. There have been issues with teamates, the constant seeming need for attention (the joel!) and now a long contract dispute... We'll see what comes of it. Either way, regardless of what happens, I'll be happy with the outcome (unless he's traded for a player like Gomez).

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01-15-2013, 10:09 PM
  #344
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Explain what is the high risk exactly? You still haven't answered this. PK is a proven commodity. What he hasn't proven yet is that he's a superstar, but the potential is definitely there, and nobody denies it.

The fact it is a 2nd contract is irrelevant. What if Gally excels in his years under his ELC? To the point where he is our #1 Forward, outperforms all other forwards. Are we going to have to give him a 2year deal as well, worth little cash, just because it's been 2-3years? Did you have to weight 4-5 years for players like Myers or Carlsson to give them bigger deals?? There's a bunch of players that go straight to larger deals right after their ELC, and they are worth it based on both how they performed and their potential.
Are you incapable of differing players? The ones that are pretty much a sure bet, and the others that are still uncertain as to where their development will bring them?
Also, the team you play on makes it a big difference. If Markov and Kaberle were back in their prime, and PK was our 3rd guy looking in, his value would decrease. But now, we have nobody like him, and nobody in our ranks that is set to even be close to his potential, so that gives him even more power.

I'm not saying give him the moon. Doughty got close to 60M. I'm talking about giving him a bit less than Price, which is close to half of what Doughty got. Far from the mood.
Maybe he has already proven to you that he will be a superstar, it's not the case for me. I have seen great things from him but not on a level where he deserves the big bucks right away.

He would get his big contract if he continues to perform to his potential. I wouldn't give it to him now, especially after only two full seasons. What's the problem with signing a more modest two-year term and prove everybody wrong and then cash-in?

You also have to factor in the way some veteran players might react in the locker room if PK gets a huge contract. You can't deny that he is a polarizing figure and sometimes it's best to just take your spot and win the respect you deserve by not being too greedy. That is something PK has a hard time understanding. He wants it all and he wants it NOW!!

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01-15-2013, 10:12 PM
  #345
chaosrevolver
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Tbh, I peg this on Meehan. This wouldn't be his first time doing this.

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01-15-2013, 10:15 PM
  #346
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Originally Posted by Shabutie View Post
We're not discussing age/development. The only fair way to say "who's better" when both play different positions is either to compare their impact on the team or to compare them to other players in their position. I could say that Price is a top 10 goalie in the NHL, Subban has a long way to go to be a top 10 D in the NHL (imo).
And I could easily say Price isn't top 10 in the NHL. That, as a matter of fact, if you look back at his performances over the years, using the best measurable stat to evaluate a goalie's performance (Sv%), he's looked a lot more like a top 30, then a top 10. PK is a top 30 Dman in the NHL.

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Saying his impact will be better on a hunch that he'll have a great impact on our powerplay is something I stick by. Purely speculation of course, but Markov was always one of the best powerplay quarterbacks in the league. Even in the small amount of games he played last year, you saw glimpses of Markov's intelligence and vision on the powerplay.
Well, it's a hunch buddy. I don't think I have to explain to you how a hunch is meaningless in a debate.
The only thing we know is that Markov has been through major injuries making him barely play in the past 3 years, and he's in his mid-30s. We also know PK has come in to fill in for the loss of Markov right from the POs, and did a remarkable job. Since then, he's been our #1 Dman for 3/4 of that time, where he's been good in every situation, and he's only 23, which means he still is developing. Those are the facts.

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But is his self-worth higher than his value to the team? Seems that way... Pacioretty, accepted a deal for a margin of what he's worth because he wanted us to remain competitive for the duration of his contract (gives us more cap space). If PK isn't willing to take a slight discount, I'd say ship him off for valuables.

Again hard to say whether Meehan, P.K or Bergevin are playing hardball, but I'm starting to sour on P.K and I'm sure other fans are as well. There have been issues with teamates, the constant seeming need for attention (the joel!) and now a long contract dispute... We'll see what comes of it. Either way, regardless of what happens, I'll be happy with the outcome (unless he's traded for a player like Gomez).
MaxPac decided to sign an extension. He had his own reasons that are unknown to us. Maybe he's the one that wanted it, and because of that, had to agree to less. He's also earned this 27M contract after only 1 good season. What if MaxPac falls down to 20G production and 45pts? What will you say then? He's still more of a doubt than PK. If PK hasn't proven himself enough over his 181games here where he played solidly, than MaxPac has proven less under his successful 116 games, yet he has a 27M extension over 6 years.
I'm starting to sour over fans that feel trading our #1 Dman of these past two years, and possibly again next year (and future years), is some kind of a good idea just because we don't want to give him a contract he'll likely earn anyways. Meanwhile, we give Prust 2.5M, and some think PK should only make 500K-1M more than this guy. Man, I knew we had some weird fans, but jesus, I never thought it was that bad.

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01-15-2013, 10:26 PM
  #347
Kriss E
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Originally Posted by BxN View Post
Maybe he has already proven to you that he will be a superstar, it's not the case for me. I have seen great things from him but not on a level where he deserves the big bucks right away.

He would get his big contract if he continues to perform to his potential. I wouldn't give it to him now, especially after only two full seasons. What's the problem with signing a more modest two-year term and prove everybody wrong and then cash-in?

You also have to factor in the way some veteran players might react in the locker room if PK gets a huge contract. You can't deny that he is a polarizing figure and sometimes it's best to just take your spot and win the respect you deserve by not being too greedy. That is something PK has a hard time understanding. He wants it all and he wants it NOW!!
Actually, I never said he proved he'll be a superstar, I said that was his ceiling. I said he was a star (matter of fact, he's an All-Star as he made that rookie team in his rookie year).
There's nothing wrong with giving him a two year deal, if that's what he wanted or could agree on. However, he doesn't want that. And, he's too good to just say ''oh well, tough luck, we don't need you''. So we need to sign him, and find a more common ground. It's not a dictatorship, and one guy you shouldn't really try to push away from your team is your best player.

As for the veterans in the room, funny you should say this. When players are asked about that (this was asked about Gomez) they say they don't talk about this stuff at all in the room. I don't see how a veteran who's already made millions and millions in this league, would look at a young player with the potential of superstardom with some jealousy because he signed a big deal. I don't see how it's anybody's business, not even his teammates, how negotiations went.
What else, are people laughing at Armstrong because he's making 1M?..
That's ridiculous. At this point, people are just looking for things.

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01-15-2013, 10:31 PM
  #348
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I've never spoken to Subban but I sense the force field of a monstrous ego stoked by the greed of his agent.

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01-15-2013, 10:35 PM
  #349
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
I'm starting to sour over fans that feel trading our #1 Dman of these past two years, and possibly again next year (and future years), is some kind of a good idea just because we don't want to give him a contract he'll likely earn anyways. Meanwhile, we give Prust 2.5M, and some think PK should only make 500K-1M more than this guy. Man, I knew we had some weird fans, but jesus, I never thought it was that bad.
I think most fans are okay with 4 to 4.5m. He hasn't proven that he's worth more than that. He's shown great potential but he suffers from brainfarts more often than you'd want your number 1 D to. He's still fairly inconsistent and again (this shouldn't be understated) has had issues with teammates. A true number 1 defenceman is never a healthy scratch is he?

P.K more or less defaulted to our number 1 defenceman because of Markov's injuries. Does that mean he is a legitimate number 1 D in the league? Not yet... If saying that Markov can have a greater impact on the team is pure speculation then saying that Subban will become a superstar is much the same.

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01-15-2013, 10:37 PM
  #350
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Hypothetically, let us speculate that Alex Galchenyuk does as well in the next few years as PK Subban has done;

Let's say he gets 40 points in 48 games this year, and becomes our number 1 center for 2013-2014 and 2014-2015, with 75 and 68 point seasons all the while contributing on the penalty kill, and that he totally dominates in the eastern conference playoffs, getting us into overtimes and humiliating opposing defensemen;

What contract should Bergevin offer him in the summer of 2015? 2 years @ 3.5 million per? Because no player is bigger than the team.
Except that PK didn't do any of the equivalent stuff for D-Men.
If PK did what Karlsson did last year, then your analogy holds.

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