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CCHL 2012-2013 season - part II (Mod warning in Post 30)

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Old
01-15-2013, 09:56 AM
  #1151
gusfring
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I think without commenting on Seatter (as I don't know him personally) we all need to remember that these are 16-20 year old kids.

It's all about perspective.

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01-15-2013, 09:58 AM
  #1152
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Originally Posted by BackBringCam View Post
Anything to the rumour of OJ and Central combining next season?
Have not heard anything personally, but I have noticed it brought up on a couple of OJ Forums over the last month. ?? I can't see them combining. Maybe a few interlocking games with nearby teams like Kingston and Wellington. Where would some teams in CCHL ever find the resources to travel to OJ venues on a regular basis? Just does not seem realistic.

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01-15-2013, 10:08 AM
  #1153
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I am not sure why everyone is getting all over a 17 year old kid on the last place team for some lack of maturity, big deal and who cares, if you are not in the change room you have no idea if it it is bothering team so why bother commenting on it. If you are in the change room then you should not be commenting on here. Leave the kid alone, if it is bothering the team one of the players or coaches will say something, for all we know they already have.

Like I said and another poster said, lines were basically rolled for almost the whole game Sunday. This is junior hockey, not minor hockey, coaches rarely just play everyone equal whether it is the 1st place or last place team, there are some kids more suited to some roles than others, it does not take 20 games to figure out. If a player is getting relatively equal icetime 5 on 5 that is better than most players would get anywhere else in junior hockey.

No where does it say the best way to develop a team/players is to play everyone equal, all players develop differently and not all players are suited to play in every situation. To me it would probably make sense to ensure that players who show an aptitude to PP and PK play more in those situations in order to develop at it and be ready to start the next season off stronger in those areas. Even 5 on 5, I am not sure what would be achieved by putting your weakest players out against the others teams top lines, tonight Kemptville plays Brockville who has what is arguably the top line in the league and some nights they play them for 25 to 30 minutes per game, if a player gets consistently outmatched then thier confidence can be destroyed. It could be the case that non of thier lines will be able to stop Brockville's top line but I think it is safe to say that some players have a better chance at being successful doing it than others. I am not saying sit your weaker guys on the bench all the time but use some common sense and do a little line matching to help guys have some success while they are on the ice, getting consistently outplayed does not help you develop either.

I do agree that there were times that this team overplayed certain players, however in the few games I have seen since the trade with SF this has not been the case, if anything the icetime has been almost equal 5 on 5. I can definitely see a difference.
Ironically, since the trade, rolling the lines, they have won 4 out of 5. Before that, while not rolling the lines, disaster......

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01-15-2013, 10:22 AM
  #1154
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Ironically, since the trade, rolling the lines, they have won 4 out of 5. Before that, while not rolling the lines, disaster......
Actually 5-7 since trade (4-1 in last 5), as I have said before on this forum Kemptville has made several changes/trades/signings that have improved thier overall depth, which in turn has made it easier to play all thier remaining players more evenly. Personally I like the direction they have moved, picking up only younger players with Junior A experience and not taking back prospects/draft picks, I think they may finally take a significant step forward next season, if they can have a reasonably good recruiting season.

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01-15-2013, 10:31 AM
  #1155
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Originally Posted by Ottawa Guy View Post
Actually 5-7 since trade (4-1 in last 5), as I have said before on this forum Kemptville has made several changes/trades/signings that have improved thier overall depth, which in turn has made it easier to play all thier remaining players more evenly. Personally I like the direction they have moved, picking up only younger players with Junior A experience and not taking back prospects/draft picks, I think they may finally take a significant step forward next season, if they can have a reasonably good recruiting season.
I totally agree with that.

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01-15-2013, 10:41 AM
  #1156
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The one thing that I disagree with you on is this. Whether a player is 17 and on a last place team should not matter. a player should play like he is playing for a first place team. Team standings is an excuse for under acheiving and bad behaviour which people in places, ie: Major Jr. or Schools notice. So, my advice to him, is to play like it is his last game.

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01-15-2013, 11:35 AM
  #1157
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Originally Posted by Ottawa Guy View Post
Actually 5-7 since trade (4-1 in last 5), as I have said before on this forum Kemptville has made several changes/trades/signings that have improved thier overall depth, which in turn has made it easier to play all thier remaining players more evenly. Personally I like the direction they have moved, picking up only younger players with Junior A experience and not taking back prospects/draft picks, I think they may finally take a significant step forward next season, if they can have a reasonably good recruiting season.
getting the NEW D coach, Best move by Kemptville.

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01-15-2013, 05:13 PM
  #1158
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Have not heard anything personally, but I have noticed it brought up on a couple of OJ Forums over the last month. ?? I can't see them combining. Maybe a few interlocking games with nearby teams like Kingston and Wellington. Where would some teams in CCHL ever find the resources to travel to OJ venues on a regular basis? Just does not seem realistic.
I have not heard about any merger but have did hear about interlocking play.

Have also heard about a reduction from 7 to 5 for 20 year olds and teams having to carry a minimum of 4 players aged 16 or 17 in any combination - i.e. from 4 16 year olds to 4 17 year olds and any other combination of the 2 ages as long as there are 4 on the roster.

Have also heard about fees rising to $4500-5000 and possibly more for the younger players.

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01-15-2013, 10:57 PM
  #1159
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Quick question....I've been reading alot of updates on CCHL Alumni lately...does anyone know what happened to Andrew Crepin?. I thought he was at UAH but I dont see him on the roster..
Going to Ottawa U.

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01-16-2013, 08:02 AM
  #1160
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Anyone notice Brockville sneaking up the standings? Another win last night and 31 of a possible 38 points in the last 19 games.

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Old
01-16-2013, 08:55 AM
  #1161
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Originally Posted by sawagohabs4ever View Post
I have not heard about any merger but have did hear about interlocking play.

Have also heard about a reduction from 7 to 5 for 20 year olds and teams having to carry a minimum of 4 players aged 16 or 17 in any combination - i.e. from 4 16 year olds to 4 17 year olds and any other combination of the 2 ages as long as there are 4 on the roster.

Have also heard about fees rising to $4500-5000 and possibly more for the younger players.
The league has always stood behind the "we are a business" philosophy when it comes to how they treat kids. If I pay $5,000 for my kid to play, I am now a customer and have the expectations of a customer. So things like releasing someone in January and leaving them with no place to play would be hard to take as a "paying customer".

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01-16-2013, 09:26 AM
  #1162
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The league has always stood behind the "we are a business" philosophy when it comes to how they treat kids. If I pay $5,000 for my kid to play, I am now a customer and have the expectations of a customer. So things like releasing someone in January and leaving them with no place to play would be hard to take as a "paying customer".
Im sure the paying customer would get his money back......

If you dont agree with paying the money...you could always play Jr b...and we all know that the NCAA scouts flock their to watch kids....

Speaking of Jrb..was at Renfrew game....would be perfect spot for jr a team!!!

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01-16-2013, 10:02 AM
  #1163
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Originally Posted by hardfacts View Post
Im sure the paying customer would get his money back......

If you dont agree with paying the money...you could always play Jr b...and we all know that the NCAA scouts flock their to watch kids....

Speaking of Jrb..was at Renfrew game....would be perfect spot for jr a team!!!
From what I am told every player in the cj is paying next year. The rates are from 3500 to 4500 depending on age. That will rattle a few parents whose sons are third/forth line players and not getting a lot of ice. This money is going towards the 3 trips taken a year by each team to Wellington, Kingston, Trenton. The cj teams will travel on Friday mornings, play that night, Saturday night and Sunday afternoon before heading back here. If I had to guess this will certainly have an effect on jr. B as players and or their parents will have to decide whether the money should be spent on hockey or university. Thats a fair chunk of change to pay and I'm not sure how many parents are willing to fork that much out.

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Old
01-16-2013, 10:29 AM
  #1164
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Originally Posted by hawxfan View Post
From what I am told every player in the cj is paying next year. The rates are from 3500 to 4500 depending on age. That will rattle a few parents whose sons are third/forth line players and not getting a lot of ice. This money is going towards the 3 trips taken a year by each team to Wellington, Kingston, Trenton. The cj teams will travel on Friday mornings, play that night, Saturday night and Sunday afternoon before heading back here. If I had to guess this will certainly have an effect on jr. B as players and or their parents will have to decide whether the money should be spent on hockey or university. Thats a fair chunk of change to pay and I'm not sure how many parents are willing to fork that much out.
For the most part, this is the model used in U.S. leagues other than USHL. Rumours I hear is that the pay to play portion will probably be phased in over a number of seasons and that as mentioned there are proposals regarding the number of 16/17 year olds along with the number of 20 year olds, not sure if it has been approved but it is definitely being talked about. I would assume that teams will have some latitude, no different than now, but I believe that owners have had enough of losing money each season, this will at last give every team the potential to break even or make some money. IMO it is a big risk though if other Canadian leagues are not doing the same, you could see an exodus of top players.

Personally I am not a big fan of having a minimum number of 16/17 year olds per team since it could force more players not ready into the league, also wth the import rules these players will have to come from within Ontario only.

Not sure the concept is a good thing but I do understand why teams are considering it.

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01-16-2013, 11:15 AM
  #1165
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Originally Posted by hardfacts View Post
Im sure the paying customer would get his money back......

If you dont agree with paying the money...you could always play Jr b...and we all know that the NCAA scouts flock their to watch kids....

Speaking of Jrb..was at Renfrew game....would be perfect spot for jr a team!!!
Is that the best you have, if you don't like it leave ??

How about some real answers, like if this is going to be just another minor hockey program treat it like that. Let players play locally, give them fair ice time, only carry 19 kids...etc...

Businesses that operate as you suggest eventually run out of customers.

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01-16-2013, 11:33 AM
  #1166
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Originally Posted by hawxfan View Post
From what I am told every player in the cj is paying next year. The rates are from 3500 to 4500 depending on age. That will rattle a few parents whose sons are third/forth line players and not getting a lot of ice. This money is going towards the 3 trips taken a year by each team to Wellington, Kingston, Trenton. The cj teams will travel on Friday mornings, play that night, Saturday night and Sunday afternoon before heading back here. If I had to guess this will certainly have an effect on jr. B as players and or their parents will have to decide whether the money should be spent on hockey or university. Thats a fair chunk of change to pay and I'm not sure how many parents are willing to fork that much out.
That's around $90,000 per team,over a million for the league if you have 22 players @$4000 each so they can play these teams. Somebody is making money like crazy and I can't see that attracting high skilled players once word gets around.

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Old
01-16-2013, 11:59 AM
  #1167
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Is that the best you have, if you don't like it leave ??

How about some real answers, like if this is going to be just another minor hockey program treat it like that. Let players play locally, give them fair ice time, only carry 19 kids...etc...

Businesses that operate as you suggest eventually run out of customers.
Agreed.. if Jr teams are going to treat players like assets... they can't really ask the kids parents to pay. Does the parent then get a voice on teams operating costs? Do they become shareholders? Collectively could they fire a coach who is under performing or influence the league?

I'm afraid if this was introduced in the current environment, many teams/leagues would be forced to shut down as players/parents would be voting with their wallets and not go to the teams. They would find/create other avenues.

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01-16-2013, 12:54 PM
  #1168
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Agreed.. if Jr teams are going to treat players like assets... they can't really ask the kids parents to pay. Does the parent then get a voice on teams operating costs? Do they become shareholders? Collectively could they fire a coach who is under performing or influence the league?

I'm afraid if this was introduced in the current environment, many teams/leagues would be forced to shut down as players/parents would be voting with their wallets and not go to the teams. They would find/create other avenues.
Agreed that if this is all about business, then as the primary commodity that allows the business to exist - namely the kids, they and the parents footing the bill will expect and have a right to value for their money and more say how they are used and treated. There certainly is a risk of turning JR. A into minor hockey with these types of fees although the owners seem to think there are enough fools out there willing to pay and they will be able to continue to operate without accountability to the players or parents.

What will happen is many able and qualified kids will not be able to pay so the Pembrokes of the league will sponsor the better players to play for them while the poor teams will be left with less qualified players able and willing to shell out - the quality of play will suffer and the gap between haves and have-nots will grow, not shrink. Junior 'B' will be awesome though!

Ottawa Guy make some good points as always but I do like the idea of requiring teams to carry 16 and 17 year olds. This league has long gotten away from being a development league and I've said it for years that teams should be required to use their 2 16 year old cards every year and should reduce the number of 20 year olds - that's what Jr. B is for. I don't see a risk of having them there - there are 24 able 16 year olds per year that can play and benefit from being on the team and this proposal adds flexibility to allow a team to take 4 17 year olds or 3 and 1 16 year old. I do agree that ideally, similar rules are put in place in all JR. A. leagues across the country otherwise this league has won it's last RBC Cup.

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01-16-2013, 01:30 PM
  #1169
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From what I am told every player in the cj is paying next year. The rates are from 3500 to 4500 depending on age. That will rattle a few parents whose sons are third/forth line players and not getting a lot of ice. This money is going towards the 3 trips taken a year by each team to Wellington, Kingston, Trenton. The cj teams will travel on Friday mornings, play that night, Saturday night and Sunday afternoon before heading back here. If I had to guess this will certainly have an effect on jr. B as players and or their parents will have to decide whether the money should be spent on hockey or university. Thats a fair chunk of change to pay and I'm not sure how many parents are willing to fork that much out.
Your Math does'nt work. It won't cost $3000.00 per kid (21*3000= $61,000) to make 3 trips to to the OJHL sites??? You could fly the whole team to the Maya Riveria 3 times for 1 week holidays for that kind of money. Makes more sense to say each trip will cost the teams 3-4 thousand total, that cost would be picked up by players, $300-$400.
As far as the league chargeing the kids more money, I can see that happening, Parents will pay. But not $4000.00. If you double the fee the Nepean players paid last year, I think it was 8-900. Charge them $1900.00, an extra $10,000 sounds tempting to our owners, but be careful what you wish for, we are already loses kid's to the MHL, because they offer the kids better deals, billet costs, equipment, travel, etc.. Plus you will create two tiers in our league, the have and the have not clubs.
I don't see any point of the inter-league. It will raise costs, benefits not worth it.

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01-16-2013, 01:32 PM
  #1170
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Originally Posted by sawagohabs4ever View Post
Agreed that if this is all about business, then as the primary commodity that allows the business to exist - namely the kids, they and the parents footing the bill will expect and have a right to value for their money and more say how they are used and treated. There certainly is a risk of turning JR. A into minor hockey with these types of fees although the owners seem to think there are enough fools out there willing to pay and they will be able to continue to operate without accountability to the players or parents.

What will happen is many able and qualified kids will not be able to pay so the Pembrokes of the league will sponsor the better players to play for them while the poor teams will be left with less qualified players able and willing to shell out - the quality of play will suffer and the gap between haves and have-nots will grow, not shrink. Junior 'B' will be awesome though!

Ottawa Guy make some good points as always but I do like the idea of requiring teams to carry 16 and 17 year olds. This league has long gotten away from being a development league and I've said it for years that teams should be required to use their 2 16 year old cards every year and should reduce the number of 20 year olds - that's what Jr. B is for. I don't see a risk of having them there - there are 24 able 16 year olds per year that can play and benefit from being on the team and this proposal adds flexibility to allow a team to take 4 17 year olds or 3 and 1 16 year old. I do agree that ideally, similar rules are put in place in all JR. A. leagues across the country otherwise this league has won it's last RBC Cup.
Some other interesting things to consider...Will players still have to pay billets if that is the case or will the team now pay?
I could definetely see players leave for other jr.A leagues in canada in which they do not have to play
4000 per player x 22 players is 88 0000 dollars. Do you really expect three weekends 2-3 hours away to cost this much?

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01-16-2013, 01:51 PM
  #1171
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Originally Posted by sawagohabs4ever View Post
Agreed that if this is all about business, then as the primary commodity that allows the business to exist - namely the kids, they and the parents footing the bill will expect and have a right to value for their money and more say how they are used and treated. There certainly is a risk of turning JR. A into minor hockey with these types of fees although the owners seem to think there are enough fools out there willing to pay and they will be able to continue to operate without accountability to the players or parents.

What will happen is many able and qualified kids will not be able to pay so the Pembrokes of the league will sponsor the better players to play for them while the poor teams will be left with less qualified players able and willing to shell out - the quality of play will suffer and the gap between haves and have-nots will grow, not shrink. Junior 'B' will be awesome though!

Ottawa Guy make some good points as always but I do like the idea of requiring teams to carry 16 and 17 year olds. This league has long gotten away from being a development league and I've said it for years that teams should be required to use their 2 16 year old cards every year and should reduce the number of 20 year olds - that's what Jr. B is for. I don't see a risk of having them there - there are 24 able 16 year olds per year that can play and benefit from being on the team and this proposal adds flexibility to allow a team to take 4 17 year olds or 3 and 1 16 year old. I do agree that ideally, similar rules are put in place in all JR. A. leagues across the country otherwise this league has won it's last RBC Cup.
As far as where the 16-17 year olds should play. They have a league...it's called Major Midget AAA.
19 & 20 yer olds can't play Midget.
If you think you can always predict who will be the better player at 20 yrs. old, when the kids are 16............ pro scouts get it wrong.

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01-16-2013, 02:26 PM
  #1172
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As far as where the 16-17 year olds should play. They have a league...it's called Major Midget AAA.
Thats where I think those 16 and 17 year olds will be. Another side effect would be the Universities in the US and would lose the advantage of Jr A as a development league while waiting for players to turn 20.

Anyway you slice it, Jr A has become "too much business". I know teams in our area spend LOTS of money on players, Woodstock Slammers, Summerside Capitals, Yarmouth Mariners to name a few.

For many Jr A players its the last hoorah of comptetitive hockey, I just can't see the parents of kids rolling the dice trying to get into a Uni somewhere spending nearly the same amount of money a tuition would cost anyhow.

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01-16-2013, 03:45 PM
  #1173
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Some other interesting things to consider...Will players still have to pay billets if that is the case or will the team now pay?
I could definetely see players leave for other jr.A leagues in canada in which they do not have to play
4000 per player x 22 players is 88 0000 dollars. Do you really expect three weekends 2-3 hours away to cost this much?
.............

Here is what I have heard - but not official by any means (nor do I work for any team):

The returning kids will play $4500 each. Rookies & newcomers will pay $6K. Billets are still to be paid on top of this. This is the same for the North and the OJ leagues as well. Teams can pay this on behalf of the players (you can see the issues already!!).

Interlocking schedule with the OJHL is still to be determined but I would suggest it would be a nightmare to schedule. Talk surrounds home-and-home series but with 22teams (against our 12) that's 44 games in addition to their regular conference play...this just doesn't compute for me. Like I said - more work to be done.

Returning to paragraph one above - 4 years would total $20k - wouldn't you rather sit as a 4th liner in the OHL and pay nothing or/ head south of the border (USHL and NAHL are free)?! Better yet save your money for University and play at a lower level.

In essence the League will take the money from clubs and will cover ice, equipment, referees, and buses. Owners are the winners as they get ticket sales and sponsorship. Families pay for the privilege of Jr A and the monthly billet fee (unless team covers it all).

Starts next year with full fee payable as outlined above.

What I have heard to date - more Governor and League meetings still to follow.

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01-16-2013, 04:18 PM
  #1174
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I'm happy that my interest in this league is soon to graduate from it.

There's a lot of things that are "out of wack" with this organization.

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01-16-2013, 04:41 PM
  #1175
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The league will be severely watered down if this is the case. Who made the decision to charge these fees? Junior B will really benefit from this.

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