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P.K Subban Thread 2.0

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01-16-2013, 12:10 PM
  #526
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Originally Posted by Capitano View Post
Don't confuse the argument...they don't dislike PK and think he won't be a #1 D, I simply think they want PK to be an RFA when they do this again next time so the habs can hold the hammer again, that's pretty much it...once the player becomes a UFA the hammer is in their hands...
I never said anything about dislike...i'm mature enough to realize that this is business. It's not about liking or disliking.

I don't have a side in this negotiations because it doesn't concern me...the player has a right to determine his own value just like the team has a right to determine a player's value relative to their salary structure.

You could argue for both sides...hence why I couldn't careless about all this non sense.

All I care about is getting him signed, because I think he makes the team better and I think he's a cornerstone of this organization. When they finally agree on an appropriate value...i'll be happy

I couldnt careless about what rumored offer he wants or what rumored offer they are giving him...thats just non-sense for fans to stay entertained

Quote:
Originally Posted by jhjhjhjhjhjh View Post
You're misunderstanding everything I say, if it isn't your way of thinking it's bullsh*t
Maybe i'm misundertanding...and maybe you're just not delivering the message properly.

Do you REALLY think any contract in sports is based on what players have proven? Get real man?

There are TONS of examples of contracts based on potential...hell, part of the CBA negotiation sticking point was about this


Last edited by Habsfan18: 01-16-2013 at 12:18 PM. Reason: merge
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01-16-2013, 12:14 PM
  #527
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
Maybe i'm misundertanding...and maybe you're just not delivering the message properly.

Do you REALLY think any contract in sports is based on what players have proven? Get real man?

There are TONS of examples of contracts based on potential...hell, part of the CBA negotiation sticking point was about this
Sports contracts have always been based on two things.

1) Past performances

2) Future potential.

At least that's how I see it. It's an equal part of both.

Obviously veterans lean harder on past performances than future potential, but as a generality I would say most GM's assess both aspects when offering contracts.

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01-16-2013, 12:15 PM
  #528
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Originally Posted by Marc the Habs Fan View Post
You can not convince me that GM who gives Brandon Prust 2.5 M per year has a ''contractual structure'' for his team in place, no matter how much he is needed on the ice with his intangibles. Paying a deluxe 4th liner that type of money is a sure way to find yourself in cap hell before long unless the cap goes to like 75 M by year 3 of the deal. Every decent player or better on this team is going to look at Prust's deal and think they should be paid far more.

Thankfully he somehow got Pacioretty done at 4.5 M per year through his prime to soften the blow.



I agree with you here, this is the best solution at this point.
As mentioned by Capitano: “Not about following the 'same structure' it's about following the structure that MB thinks we need to follow. He is more informed than we are imo."

The contractual team structure is not, contrary to popular belief, a rigid concept. For instance, Bergevin would happily give a multi years contract to a young RFA Sidney Crosby! Heck, Bergevin did, as you underlined, throw away the "template" regarding Prust (rightfully so imo but that’s another topic) so we know he is not acting blindly (to respect a rigid concept) here.

The reason why he does not want to give a multi years contract, at this point in his career, to Subban, is because he thinks that’s what best for the team. If PK wants to play for a contender, he will need to make a little sacrifice. For the Team.

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01-16-2013, 12:17 PM
  #529
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Originally Posted by Dr Gonzo View Post
Before you go, can I get a link to the article you were referencing where Meehan said PK was looking for a specific amount of money.

Thanks in advance.
I think Meehan was trying to say that teams are willing to give long term contract after ELS contracts. I don't think he wanted to compare Subban to these players (Skinner, Eberle, Hall).

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01-16-2013, 12:17 PM
  #530
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Originally Posted by Dr Gonzo View Post
Sports contracts have always been based on two things.

1) Past performances

2) Future potential.

At least that's how I see it. It's an equal part of both.

Obviously veterans lean harder on past performances than future potential, but as a generality I would say most GM's assess both aspects when offering contracts.
Agreed 100%...but with RFA's, it's largly based on future potential, because there's rarely enough data to to sign deals based on past performances (except for the rare exception).

Again, I can see the argument from both PK's side as well as MB's side...which is why I don't feel it necessary to pick a side.

Contract negotiations are a process and I respect that both sides are allowed to use all the tools available during that process. It's been negotiated as part of their collective barganning agreement.

Sucks as a fan...but that's how it is.

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01-16-2013, 12:19 PM
  #531
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Originally Posted by Habster33 View Post
I think Meehan was trying to say that teams are willing to give long term contract after ELS contracts. I don't think he wanted to compare Subban to these players (Skinner, Eberle, Hall).
That's absolutely what I got from it as well. It was term talk.

This is what I could find: (I was hoping someone else had a link where he talked about money.)

"The dynamics that we've seen in our CBA in the last few years, organizations have recognized the importance of contracting with players on a post-entry-level basis so they secure their rights for a longer term, so that they're not prejudice in any way by any free agency rights or interference," Meehan said.

"The Boston Bruins have done that for Tyler Seguin. The Edmonton Oilers have done that for (Jordan) Eberle and (Taylor) Hall. Carolina has done it for (Jeff) Skinner. The Jets have done it for (Evander) Kane. So there's precedent for that in our industry today."

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01-16-2013, 12:20 PM
  #532
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Originally Posted by Habster33 View Post
I think Meehan was trying to say that teams are willing to give long term contract after ELS contracts. I don't think he wanted to compare Subban to these players (Skinner, Eberle, Hall).
PK is comparable to those guys in terms of performance and potential. Some have performed better(Skinner and Eberle early on) and other are paid on potential(mostly Hall). PK is a mix of performance and potential right now.

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01-16-2013, 12:20 PM
  #533
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Originally Posted by Kjell Dahlin View Post
As mentioned by Capitano: “Not about following the 'same structure' it's about following the structure that MB thinks we need to follow. He is more informed than we are imo."

The contractual team structure is not, contrary to popular belief, a rigid concept. For instance, Bergevin would happily give a multi years contract to a young RFA Sidney Crosby! Heck, Bergevin did, as you underlined, throw away the "template" regarding Prust (rightfully so imo but that’s another topic) so we know he is not acting blindly (to respect a rigid concept) here.

The reason why he does not want to give a multi years contract, at this point in his career, to Subban, is because he thinks that’s what best for the team. If PK wants to play for a contender, he will need to make a little sacrifice. For the Team.

That's fair...but if you're Don Meehan, 2 things

#1. Why is it PK has to be the one who nees to make this sacrifice? There are 22 other players on this team

#2. If MB wants to build a contender, his client PK Subban, is going to be a big piece of that...so why is he short-changing him?

There are 2 sides to this medal...neither is wrong....that's the difficulty of this contract.

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01-16-2013, 12:20 PM
  #534
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Agreed 100%...but with RFA's, it's largly based on future potential, because there's rarely enough data to to sign deals based on past performances (except for the rare exception).

Again, I can see the argument from both PK's side as well as MB's side...which is why I don't feel it necessary to pick a side.

Contract negotiations are a process and I respect that both sides are allowed to use all the tools available during that process. It's been negotiated as part of their collective barganning agreement.

Sucks as a fan...but that's how it is.

Yeah, RFA's are a different subject, and obviously they go to the other end of the spectrum (compared to vets) and lean heavily on the potential rather than the past performances.

In this particular case, I think PK has leverage in both aspects (past and future).

I won't vilify him until I have all the details, and at the moment know one is aware of all the details, so it's a little silly to get mad at the guy IMO.

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01-16-2013, 12:23 PM
  #535
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Originally Posted by Dr Gonzo View Post
Yeah, RFA's are a different subject, and obviously they go to the other end of the spectrum (compared to vets) and lean heavily on the potential rather than the past performances.

In this particular case, I think PK has leverage in both aspects (past and future).

I won't vilify him until I have all the details, and at the moment know one is aware of all the details, so it's a little silly to get mad at the guy IMO.
And it's just as silly to get mad at the team...it's a process.

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01-16-2013, 12:23 PM
  #536
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Subban will be signed when he gets offered the right deal. He'll be here on Saturday night imo.

I'm not sure why MB is seeming to take a hardline stance with PK. Seems odd to do this with arguably your most important player, but give out long term deals to Brandon Prust. I find it odd and annoying, but I'm not overly concerned, no one knows what pk is asking or what MB has offered.

I'm confident he'll be here Saturday night. He's too important not to be here. He'll get signed, stop worrying and let those involved do their thing.


Last edited by habsfanatics: 01-16-2013 at 12:37 PM.
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01-16-2013, 12:25 PM
  #537
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Originally Posted by jhjhjhjhjhjh View Post
You can't sign a player on what he's going to do in the future that's complete garbage of course he needs to prove himself further.
You're applying logic that's gone out the window a long time ago in this league. Whether it's correct or not is besides the point, there's been a huge shift in paying for potential, it's everywhere around the league. While I want PK signed ASAP and in a way that doesn’t bend the Habs over a barrel, he has a lot of comparables that show he's worth a long term deal on some good money. There’s nothing outrageous about this if you look around the league.


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01-16-2013, 12:25 PM
  #538
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Originally Posted by habsfanatics View Post
Subban will be signed when he gets offered the right deal. He'll be here on Saturday night imo.

I'm not sure why MB is seeming to take a hardline stance with PK. Seems odd to do this with arguably your most important player, but give out long term deals to Brandon Prust. I find it odd and annoying, but I'm not overly concerned, no one knows what pk is asking or what MB has offered.

I'm confident he'll be here Saturday night. Hes too important not to be here. He'll get signed, stop worrying and let those involved do their thing.
My thoughts exactly...if there's anything the lockout has taught us, is that during difficult negotiations, both sides rarely give in until there's some type of deadline forcing them too.

And right now, there's no incentive for either side to give in

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01-16-2013, 12:25 PM
  #539
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Originally Posted by Dr Gonzo View Post
That's absolutely what I got from it as well. It was term talk.

This is what I could find: (I was hoping someone else had a link where he talked about money.)

"The dynamics that we've seen in our CBA in the last few years, organizations have recognized the importance of contracting with players on a post-entry-level basis so they secure their rights for a longer term, so that they're not prejudice in any way by any free agency rights or interference," Meehan said.

"The Boston Bruins have done that for Tyler Seguin. The Edmonton Oilers have done that for (Jordan) Eberle and (Taylor) Hall. Carolina has done it for (Jeff) Skinner. The Jets have done it for (Evander) Kane. So there's precedent for that in our industry today."
Those deals...

Skinner 6 years 34.35 5.72 mil cap hit
Hall 7 years 42 mil 6 mil cap hit
Eberle 6 years 36 mil 6 mil cap hit
Kane 6 years 31.5 mil 5.25 mil
Seguin 6 years 34.5 mil 5.75

Maybe Bergevin can give in with 5 years and 5.5-5.7 AAV.

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01-16-2013, 12:26 PM
  #540
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
I never said anything about dislike...i'm mature enough to realize that this is business. It's not about liking or disliking.

I don't have a side in this negotiations because it doesn't concern me...the player has a right to determine his own value just like the team has a right to determine a player's value relative to their salary structure.

You could argue for both sides...hence why I couldn't careless about all this non sense.

All I care about is getting him signed, because I think he makes the team better and I think he's a cornerstone of this organization. When they finally agree on an appropriate value...i'll be happy

I couldnt careless about what rumored offer he wants or what rumored offer they are giving him...thats just non-sense for fans to stay entertained
True, you didn't say dislike, you're right. My bad.

So in reality there are far too many unknowns for us to take a side. I choose to take MB's side frankly because I am a hab fan first and I think MB is simply leveraging his strength right now. It remains to be seen what would happen if the shoe was on the other foot and PK was a UFA. But that time will come for him.

Just curious, for argument's sake, if PK was asking for Doughty money and wouldn't budge, would your argument saying 'all i care about is him getting signed' still apply?

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01-16-2013, 12:30 PM
  #541
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Originally Posted by Kjell Dahlin View Post
No rumor; Meehan mentioned the names of Seguin, Eberle, Hall, Skinner and Kane on numerous occasions.

Ref.: http://www.985sports.ca/hockey/nouve...di-200986.html
I think PK Subban is every bit as valuable as Jordan Eberle and Jeff Skinner. I'd argue that he is a more vital piece, especially to us. I also think he has the most upside out of the three.

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01-16-2013, 12:32 PM
  #542
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Originally Posted by habsfanatics View Post
Subban will be signed when he gets offered the right deal. He'll be here on Saturday night imo.

I'm not sure why MB is seeming to take a hardline stance with PK. Seems odd to do this with arguably your most important player, but give out long term deals to Brandon Prust. I find it odd and annoying, but I'm not overly concerned, no one knows what pk is asking or what MB has offered.

I'm confident he'll be here Saturday night. Hes too important not to be here. He'll get signed, stop worrying and let those involved do their thing.
That's because MB and Therrien don't think PK is arguably their most important player. Notice the rhetoric they use every single time they talk about him. They invariably say, every single time, that PK is a player who is still in development stages of his career. They say this every time they are asked a question about him. So as much as you read on here that he's a #1 defenseman etc, the people who run the show don't think that.

And those who are basically throwing Prust under the bus before he's even played a minute in the Habs uniform have to understand that there was a desperate need for a player like him on this team and that had they not slightly overpaid they would have Diaz and Weber playing forward again.

That is why they paid that much for him and that is why it has zilch to do with PK's contract.

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01-16-2013, 12:32 PM
  #543
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True, you didn't say dislike, you're right. My bad.

So in reality there are far too many unknowns for us to take a side. I choose to take MB's side frankly because I am a hab fan first and I think MB is simply leveraging his strength right now. It remains to be seen what would happen if the shoe was on the other foot and PK was a UFA. But that time will come for him.

Just curious, for argument's sake, if PK was asking for Doughty money and wouldn't budge, would your argument saying 'all i care about is him getting signed' still apply?
If I had absolute certainty that PK Subban and his agent were asking for Doughty money and weren't budging, then I would fully support the Habs management for not giving in. (though I wouldn't vilify Subban/Meehan for wanting that type of contract either mind you).

But since there's ABSOLUTELY no way to know this ever...that's a fantasy hypothetical.

Personally, I think we should all save ourselves a whole lot of heart ache and wrap our brains around the idea that PK Subban is going to make more money then he probably should on his next deal

But don't blame PK or MB...it's how the CBA is built for this type of player

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01-16-2013, 12:33 PM
  #544
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That's because MB and Therrien don't think PK is arguably their most important player. Notice the rhetoric they use every single time they talk about him. They invariably say, every single time, that PK is a player who is still in development stages of his career. They say this every time they are asked a question about him.

And those who are basically throwing Prust under the boat before he's even played a minute in the Habs uniform have to understand that there was a desperate need for a player like him on this team and that had they not slightly overpaid they would have Diaz and Weber playing forward again.

That is why they paid that much for him and that is why it has zilch to do with PK's contract.
Prust was a UFA and that is the main reason he was overpaid. And PK's time to be a UFA will come one day too and that is when he will cash in if he is the player that everybody thinks he should be.

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01-16-2013, 12:34 PM
  #545
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Those deals...

Skinner 6 years 34.35 5.72 mil cap hit
Hall 7 years 42 mil 6 mil cap hit
Eberle 6 years 36 mil 6 mil cap hit
Kane 6 years 31.5 mil 5.25 mil
Seguin 6 years 34.5 mil 5.75

Maybe Bergevin can give in with 5 years and 5.5-5.7 AAV.
Skinner, Hall, Eberle, Seguin > Subban

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01-16-2013, 12:34 PM
  #546
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Originally Posted by jhjhjhjhjhjh View Post
You're misunderstanding everything I say, if it isn't your way of thinking it's bullsh*t
You haven't made a coherent argument yet. I can understand his/her?? confusion

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01-16-2013, 12:34 PM
  #547
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Prust was a UFA and that is the main reason he was overpaid. And PK's time to be a UFA will come one day too and that is when he will cash in if he is the player that everybody thinks he should be.
Can you explain why Taylor Hall is making 6M per year?

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01-16-2013, 12:35 PM
  #548
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If I had absolute certainty that PK Subban and his agent were asking for Doughty money and weren't budging, then I would fully support the Habs management for not giving in. (though I wouldn't vilify Subban/Meehan for wanting that type of contract either mind you).

But since there's ABSOLUTELY no way to know this ever...that's a fantasy hypothetical.

Personally, I think we should all save ourselves a whole lot of heart ache and wrap our brains around the idea that PK Subban is going to make more money then he probably should on his next deal

But don't blame PK or MB...it's how the CBA is built for this type of player
So now back to reality, we know little of the situation so it's neither MB's or PK's fault, hehe. But I will still say that if MB hasn't signed him yet that's good enough for me at this point. Once he is signed and some facts come out then we'll have more to talk about, you're right

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01-16-2013, 12:36 PM
  #549
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Originally Posted by Habster33 View Post
Skinner, Hall, Eberle, Seguin > Subban
that's an opinion...not a fact.

10 different people might have 10 different opinions about those 5 players...doesnt make anyone right or wrong

just shows how easily negotiations like this can get off the rails. I mean we're having trouble determining PK's value in virtual world with no consequence...imagine how difficult this must be for the parties involved

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01-16-2013, 12:37 PM
  #550
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Can you explain why Taylor Hall is making 6M per year?
Because Edmonton decided to pay him that much.

Question for you, do you think Edmonton and Montreal are the same type of market?

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