What a joke what has Seguin done to prove he is better than Hall, other than lack freak injuries? Seguin has a worse PPG, less goals, less points (in 29 more games), etc.
And #1 vs #3... Half a year after the draft... #1 for sure.
Time on ice is nearly identical for their 2 years in the league (Hall 2,294 minutes Seguin 2,275 minutes) and their stats are not that far off.
I would argue what has Hall done to prove he is better than Seguin? Better yet, what has either done to separate themselves from the other? Answer: Not much yet.
If anything I give them a draw until one of them takes the next step. But if I had to put money on it, I bet you this little trend continues throughout their careers. One puts up more goals, the other more assists, both put up near identical pts/game and TOI/pt.
I wont judge either Nail or Galy until the reach the NHL but I have to set something straight
Since all you Hall fans like pro rated stats..
Hall was on pace to score 70 points if not for his injuries
Seguin scored 67 in pretty much a full season(81 games)
Hall avg 15:06 ESToi and 3:03 PPToi
Seguin avg 14:27 ESToi and 2:27 PPtio
so Hall, pro rated, would have played 49 more PPmins and 53 more ESmins
It takes seguin 13.27min to score a PP point and 22.5 min to score an ESP
It takes Hall 8.9 minutes to score a PP point and 28.8 min to score ESP
If seguin playes the same minutes he ends up collecting 4 more ppp and 2 more esp putting his point total to 73p, 54ESP and 19PPP
If Hall played Seguin's minutes he would end up scoring 41 ESP and 22PPP for a total of 63 points. 4 points less than Seguin put up in the same time . By switching thier ice time seguin outscores Hall by 10 points, a pretty large margin.
Hall also has 2.3% more offensive zone starts.
I understand why some people would prefer Hall based on intangibles and drive but for anyone to say he's more productive is just flat out wrong. Julien likes to roll 4 lines so the top six fowards play less than most other teams. Hopefully he will change that with Seguin so we can all see just how much of a beast he is.
Another example is if you gave both of them Stamkos' TOI you would get
Seguin: 64ESP 23PPP= 87 Points, 10 less than Stamkos.
Hall: 40ESP 35PPP= 75 points, 22 less than Stamkos.
Seguin is also the way better on even strength which does matter cause if you need an advantage to put the points up, your putting your team at a disadvantage. What happens when the refs put the whistles away? Less production, less wins.
There are a ton of different factors in which you can value a player but here's an easy one.
Who'd you rather have? The point leader of the #2 seed, annual playoff team, who had just about everyone they played bring their A-game to beat the former Cup champs or the player who(pro-rated) would of been 6 points behind the point leader of the 14th seed, annual lottery pick team, who most likely saw as much back-up goalies as any other teams and didn't have teams trying to send a message by beating the best.
In time I think the gap is only going to get further. Most experts saw Hall as the more NHL ready prospect and Seguin a little more of a project with a higher ceiling. I'm not trying to bash Hall because I like him as a player and think he would be great on the Bruins but I believe Seguin to be the superior of the two.
I wont judge either Nail or Galy until the reach the NHL but I have to set something straight
Since all you Hall fans like pro rated stats..
Hall was on pace to score 70 points if not for his injuries
Seguin scored 67 in pretty much a full season(81 games)
Hall avg 15:06 ESToi and 3:03 PPToi
Seguin avg 14:27 ESToi and 2:27 PPtio
so Hall, pro rated, would have played 49 more PPmins and 53 more ESmins
It takes seguin 13.27min to score a PP point and 22.5 min to score an ESP
It takes Hall 8.9 minutes to score a PP point and 28.8 min to score ESP
If seguin playes the same minutes he ends up collecting 4 more ppp and 2 more esp putting his point total to 73p, 54ESP and 19PPP
If Hall played Seguin's minutes he would end up scoring 41 ESP and 22PPP for a total of 63 points. 4 points less than Seguin put up in the same time . By switching thier ice time seguin outscores Hall by 10 points, a pretty large margin.
Hall also has 2.3% more offensive zone starts.
I understand why some people would prefer Hall based on intangibles and drive but for anyone to say he's more productive is just flat out wrong. Julien likes to roll 4 lines so the top six fowards play less than most other teams. Hopefully he will change that with Seguin so we can all see just how much of a beast he is.
Another example is if you gave both of them Stamkos' TOI you would get
Seguin: 64ESP 23PPP= 87 Points, 10 less than Stamkos.
Hall: 40ESP 35PPP= 75 points, 22 less than Stamkos.
Seguin is also the way better on even strength which does matter cause if you need an advantage to put the points up, your putting your team at a disadvantage. What happens when the refs put the whistles away? Less production, less wins.
There are a ton of different factors in which you can value a player but here's an easy one.
Who'd you rather have? The point leader of the #2 seed, annual playoff team, who had just about everyone they played bring their A-game to beat the former Cup champs or the player who(pro-rated) would of been 6 points behind the point leader of the 14th seed, annual lottery pick team, who most likely saw as much back-up goalies as any other teams and didn't have teams trying to send a message by beating the best.
In time I think the gap is only going to get further. Most experts saw Hall as the more NHL ready prospect and Seguin a little more of a project with a higher ceiling. I'm not trying to bash Hall because I like him as a player and think he would be great on the Bruins but I believe Seguin to be the superior of the two.
Score a quarter of your points in the first 10 games and then show down for the last 70 doesn't exactly scream consistency to me...
You're just breaking down the numbers to suit how you want it to look. A player produces regardless of situation. While there is some weight to ES minutes [as most of the game is played in ES], that's not the deciding factor.
Seguin plays on perennial cup contender
Hall plays on a cellar dweller
Hall produced at a better clip than Seguin [and consistently]
Sure, they may be close, but Seguin isn't "better". The fact that you make conjecture [your own even] about teams not sending the best against him shows how little you watch teams zone in on the Oilers 3 players. Perhaps its best you stay up a bit past bed time to watch a bit more Oiler games in the East if you think teams don't send out their best against the Oilers 3.
Hall makes his entire team play twice as well when he's in the line-up, while Seguin is just a support player.
If Seguin was an Oiler playing on the worst team in the league, he wouldn't be looking nearly as good.
Yakupov Vs Galchenyuk is just downright funny, because Yakupov has already lit up the KHL like a Christmas tree. IMO that's like taking Galchenyuk over Yakupov would be like taking prime Kesler over prime Kovalchuk.
Score a quarter of your points in the first 10 games and then show down for the last 70 doesn't exactly scream consistency to me...
He scored 10 points in his first 10 games of the 2011-12 season.
He was actually largely consistent throughout the season if you actually look at the game log.
You're just breaking down the numbers to suit how you want it to look. A player produces regardless of situation. While there is some weight to ES minutes [as most of the game is played in ES], that's not the deciding factor.
Hall supporters are really just doing the exact same thing.
Quote:
Seguin plays on perennial cup contender
Hall plays on a cellar dweller Hall produced at a better clip than Seguin [and consistently]
I believe the two people who used TOI stats in the last few posts already proved the bolded part wrong. As for the consistency, well you can look at the game log above and lay that one to rest.
Quote:
Sure, they may be close, but Seguin isn't "better".
If we can't say Seguin is better, there's no possible way you can say Hall is better.
Quote:
Originally Posted by thadd
Hall makes his entire team play twice as well when he's in the line-up, while Seguin is just a support player.
Where's your proof to back this up? Seguin was the highest scorer on his team last year. Lets look at Oiler stats. Well Oiler fans have already stated, and remained adamant on the fact that Hall did NOT play with Eberle and RNH primarily, so we can skip them. Gagner scored at about his career average, Smyth scored one less point than last year, and an average of 10 points less than the two previous years, Hemsky had one of his worst statistical years in a while, regardless of injury, same with Horcoff... Who exactly did he make better?
Quote:
If Seguin was an Oiler playing on the worst team in the league, he wouldn't be looking nearly as good.
If Hall was playing on one of the most defensive, disciplined teams in the league, and receiving less ice time, and specifically less powerplay time, he wouldn't be looking nearly as good.
I would argue what has Hall done to prove he is better than Seguin? Better yet, what has either done to separate themselves from the other? Answer: Not much yet.
If anything I give them a draw until one of them takes the next step. But if I had to put money on it, I bet you this little trend continues throughout their careers. One puts up more goals, the other more assists, both put up near identical pts/game and TOI/pt.
Yea, I would completely agree that it's a draw. It's as close as you can get after 2 years.
However, the vast majority of people on HF have Seguin > Hall, which is why these poll results are so hilariously wrong.
Talent-wise, it's very similar. One duo has the most powerful wheels, the other has better ability to use other linemates and control the play with stick-handling.
One has quite a size advantage over the other though, so I'll go with the 6'1+ 200lbs+ duo.
Gally is over 6 feet Yak is like 5'10
Hall is 6'1 over 200...Seguin is 185...your comment makes no sense
Alex Galchenyuk: 61 pts in 33 games in the OHL (1.85 pts/game). He is slighty above the 2 pts/game pace excluding the first few games where he shook off the rust.
Nail Yakupov: 69 pts in 42 games in the OHL last year (1.64 pts/game)
Galchenyuk is 5 months younger than Yakupov so Galchy was only 7 months older when he did his 1.85 PPG vs 1.64 for Yakupov. And Galchy might have close to 2 PPG had he played the whole season in Sarnia.
Please explain how playing more games means his points per game would increase....
I wish people would stop using TOI stats to project point totals. It just plain does not work like that.
Mathieu Perreault, Nick Foligno and Rich Peverley had a higher P/60 than John Tavares, Daniel Sedin, Anze Kopitar, etc. It does not mean they're better offensive players. And these aren't isolated examples, go ahead and look for yourself and there are all kinds of red flags. Yes, there are a lot of star players at the top, which makes sense because they score a lot, but there are also a lot of players that don't belong there or players that are good but way higher than they should be.
It's just not a reliable or relevant way of projecting point totals. If Jamie Benn was capable of scoring as many points as Steven Stamkos his coaches would put him in situations where he could do that. If Tyler Ennis could score at the rate of a top 15 point producer, he'd be a top 15 point producer. There's no such thing as these tremendous offensive players who can score at superstar rates that aren't already scoring at superstar rates.
I wont judge either Nail or Galy until the reach the NHL but I have to set something straight
Since all you Hall fans like pro rated stats..
Hall was on pace to score 70 points if not for his injuries
Seguin scored 67 in pretty much a full season(81 games)
Hall avg 15:06 ESToi and 3:03 PPToi
Seguin avg 14:27 ESToi and 2:27 PPtio
so Hall, pro rated, would have played 49 more PPmins and 53 more ESmins
It takes seguin 13.27min to score a PP point and 22.5 min to score an ESP
It takes Hall 8.9 minutes to score a PP point and 28.8 min to score ESP
If seguin playes the same minutes he ends up collecting 4 more ppp and 2 more esp putting his point total to 73p, 54ESP and 19PPP
If Hall played Seguin's minutes he would end up scoring 41 ESP and 22PPP for a total of 63 points. 4 points less than Seguin put up in the same time . By switching thier ice time seguin outscores Hall by 10 points, a pretty large margin.
Hall also has 2.3% more offensive zone starts.
I understand why some people would prefer Hall based on intangibles and drive but for anyone to say he's more productive is just flat out wrong. Julien likes to roll 4 lines so the top six fowards play less than most other teams. Hopefully he will change that with Seguin so we can all see just how much of a beast he is.
Another example is if you gave both of them Stamkos' TOI you would get
Seguin: 64ESP 23PPP= 87 Points, 10 less than Stamkos.
Hall: 40ESP 35PPP= 75 points, 22 less than Stamkos.
Seguin is also the way better on even strength which does matter cause if you need an advantage to put the points up, your putting your team at a disadvantage. What happens when the refs put the whistles away? Less production, less wins.
There are a ton of different factors in which you can value a player but here's an easy one.
Who'd you rather have? The point leader of the #2 seed, annual playoff team, who had just about everyone they played bring their A-game to beat the former Cup champs or the player who(pro-rated) would of been 6 points behind the point leader of the 14th seed, annual lottery pick team, who most likely saw as much back-up goalies as any other teams and didn't have teams trying to send a message by beating the best.
In time I think the gap is only going to get further. Most experts saw Hall as the more NHL ready prospect and Seguin a little more of a project with a higher ceiling. I'm not trying to bash Hall because I like him as a player and think he would be great on the Bruins but I believe Seguin to be the superior of the two.
Hall faced better 5on5 competition based on Corsi Statistics 0.858 vs 0.389
Yea, I would completely agree that it's a draw. It's as close as you can get after 2 years.
However, the vast majority of people on HF have Seguin > Hall, which is why these poll results are so hilariously wrong.
How are the results "wrong"? They are opinions. Hall and Yakupov could end up making this poll look like a joke in a few years, but at this point it's hard to say one way or the other.
Edmonton fans, just some advice: **** what anyone else thinks. You know what you guys have. You don't need to convince anyone anything. Let the players do the talking this year. No need to get worked up over a stupid poll.
How are the results "wrong"? They are opinions. Hall and Yakupov could end up making this poll look like a joke in a few years, but at this point it's hard to say one way or the other.
Edmonton fans, just some advice: **** what anyone else thinks. You know what you guys have. You don't need to convince anyone anything. Let the players do the talking this year. No need to get worked up over a stupid poll.
Score a quarter of your points in the first 10 games and then show down for the last 70 doesn't exactly scream consistency to me...
You're just breaking down the numbers to suit how you want it to look. A player produces regardless of situation. While there is some weight to ES minutes [as most of the game is played in ES], that's not the deciding factor.
Seguin plays on perennial cup contender
Hall plays on a cellar dweller
Hall produced at a better clip than Seguin [and consistently]
Sure, they may be close, but Seguin isn't "better". The fact that you make conjecture [your own even] about teams not sending the best against him shows how little you watch teams zone in on the Oilers 3 players. Perhaps its best you stay up a bit past bed time to watch a bit more Oiler games in the East if you think teams don't send out their best against the Oilers 3.
As for the bolded, I never said that so maybe you should work on your reading comprehension. And the last time i looked 10 is not 25% of 67, maybe you should invest in a calculator as well.
What i said was that last year if a team has the Oilers and the Bruns in the same week who do you think they are more likely to want to beat. All these guys say every game is important but the truth is teams want to beat the former champs more so then the cellar dwellers, it's the competitive nature of pro athletes. I know for sure when the Blackhawks came to town the year after they won the cup our guys wanted to make an impression by beating the best. Denying this would just be ignorant.
I'm sure teams wanted to put their best shutdown guys on Seguin but it'd hard when he is on our shutdown line helping shut down the other teams best players. Speaking of that, another part that I believe Seguin is ahead of Hall is defensive play but once again, didn't bring it up, because I was just proving he outproduced him. The Bruins also have two scoring lines both capable of putting points up on a nightly basis so it's extremely difficult to shut both down and i'm sure different teams tried to shut a different line down every night.
If you don't believe Seguin outproduced Hall then prove it because the truth is that he did. Hall scored 53 points that season. If you cannot stay healthy, fluky injury or not, your putting your team at a disadvantage. And anyone saying he wont miss games next year is just throwing s*** at a wall hoping it will stick because all we have seen from him is a 42 and 53 game seasons.
I didn't want to bring up the injuries so I tried to prove the fact that he out produced him in the fairest way possible. If you want to ignore the facts then fine by me, but don't get mad at me because the stats don't tell you what you want to hear.
As for the bolded, I never said that so maybe you should work on your reading comprehension. And the last time i looked 10 is not 25% of 67, maybe you should invest in a calculator as well.
What i said was that last year if a team has the Oilers and the Bruns in the same week who do you think they are more likely to want to beat. All these guys say every game is important but the truth is teams want to beat the former champs more so then the cellar dwellers, it's the competitive nature of pro athletes. I know for sure when the Blackhawks came to town the year after they won the cup our guys wanted to make an impression by beating the best. Denying this would just be ignorant.
I'm sure teams wanted to put their best shutdown guys on Seguin but it'd hard when he is on our shutdown line helping shut down the other teams best players. Speaking of that, another part that I believe Seguin is ahead of Hall is defensive play but once again, didn't bring it up, because I was just proving he outproduced him. The Bruins also have two scoring lines both capable of putting points up on a nightly basis so it's extremely difficult to shut both down and i'm sure different teams tried to shut a different line down every night.
If you don't believe Seguin outproduced Hall then prove it because the truth is that he did. Hall scored 53 points that season. If you cannot stay healthy, fluky injury or not, your putting your team at a disadvantage. And anyone saying he wont miss games next year is just throwing s*** at a wall hoping it will stick because all we have seen from him is a 42 and 53 game seasons.
I didn't want to bring up the injuries so I tried to prove the fact that he out produced him in the fairest way possible. If you want to ignore the facts then fine by me, but don't get mad at me because the stats don't tell you what you want to hear.
That point alone shows you don't know what you are talking about. You think a team would look at a schedule and say "hey it's the Oilers or Bluejackets, lets not try our best"
Really? Seguin is ">>" better then Hall? Please explain how Seguin is SO much better then Hall? I can understand = and maybe even just one ">" but two? wow.
Honestly neither one of them have done anything spectacular to pull themselves away from eachother.
That point alone shows you don't know what you are talking about. You think a team would look at a schedule and say "hey it's the Oilers or Bluejackets, lets not try our best"
Awesome argument
I can explain it to you but i cannot understand it for you.
Go ahead pick away at the easy arguments. As long as you agree that Seguin is the more productive player, which you must since you haven't had done much to prove against it. Those are just additional reasons as to why I believe Seguin to be the better player. But i'm done with this now. All i wanted to do was prove why i think Seguin is the more productive player in regards to just offence by the fairest way I thought possible. So unless you want to try to put some actual analysis on it I'm done arguing with you. I bid you adieu.
That point alone shows you don't know what you are talking about. You think a team would look at a schedule and say "hey it's the Oilers or Bluejackets, lets not try our best"
Awesome argument
Let's put it this way and see if it sticks.
You're playing hockey on your high school team. There's 15 teams in your league. You are currently ranked seventh. You look at your schedule and see that on Tuesday this week, you'll be playing the 14th ranked team, and on Friday, you'll be playing the third ranked team. Which team do you think your team is going to have to try harder against?
You're playing hockey on your high school team. There's 15 teams in your league. You are currently ranked seventh. You look at your schedule and see that on Tuesday this week, you'll be playing the 14th ranked team, and on Friday, you'll be playing the third ranked team. Which team do you think your team is going to have to try harder against?
Parity in the NHL is strong enough that you're not going to do that.
what has Seguin done to prove he is better than Hall, other than lack freak injuries? Seguin has a worse PPG, less goals, less points (in 29 more games), etc.
You think a team would look at a schedule and say "hey it's the Oilers or Bluejackets, lets not try our best"
I can explain it to you but i cannot understand it for you.
