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01-16-2013, 12:59 PM
  #576
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
There's nothing to indicate he wants fair treatment...

He's been the teams most used defensman in all situations for the last 1.5 years (going back to mid way through his rookie season). Why should he accept a deal that would make him the 4th or 5th highest paid dman on the team?

Just think about that for one second...put yourself in his shoes.

The team uses him like a #1 dman...yet they don't want to reward him like one when it's time too?

I'm not entirely sure I wouldn't be holding out either...then again, priciples are important to me.
These threads make my head hurt tbh. lol. The idea that PK is some unknown quantity who has yet to proven he's at least a top pairing dman are completely absurd. I think I'll leave this thread until he's signed.

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01-16-2013, 01:00 PM
  #577
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MB already said less than 4 days ago that he will NOT trade PK during an interview with RDS. So what difference does it make what offers he gets ?
Because things can change. Because only a fool wouldn't at least listen to offers. I'm sure it's Bergevin's preference to not trade him, but I guarantee he's listening to offers. You never plan to trade a player like PK, but if the right offer comes along you always at least consider it.

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01-16-2013, 01:02 PM
  #578
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That's fair...but when other teams aren't using the same logic...PK is well within his right to asked for big money now.

Also, there's a huge misconception that I want to dispell right now...and that's the one that PK Subban hasn't proven anything

Nothing could be further from the truth
Yep, he is within his right for sure, but as I illustrated the habs have their own issues with their market that they have to worry about as well. They simply want to setup the player they groomed to be successful. It always looks better if you overachieve in Montreal first and then get your money in my experience.

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01-16-2013, 01:03 PM
  #579
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Yep, he is within his right for sure, but as I illustrated the habs have their own issues with their market that they have to worry about as well. They simply want to setup the player they groomed to be successful. It always looks better if you overachieve in Montreal first and then get your money in my experience.
Well there's a philosophical difference of opinions then...and that's why he's still unsigned

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01-16-2013, 01:07 PM
  #580
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I don't get why Prust signing gets thrown here. He was a UFA and was signed at market value. You can't impose your team's philosophy regarding contracts when it comes to the UFA market (free market).
Because opening the vault to a 4th liner coming off a career year and then locking yourself into a major contract imbroglio with arguably your best skater, a 23 year old who is homegrown (and has made it clear he wants to be here), is not a smart way to run a hockey team.

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01-16-2013, 01:08 PM
  #581
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
There's nothing to indicate he wants special treatment...

He's been the teams most used defensman in all situations for the last 1.5 years (going back to mid way through his rookie season). Why should he accept a deal that would make him the 4th or 5th highest paid dman on the team?

Just think about that for one second...put yourself in his shoes.

The team uses him like a #1 dman...yet they don't want to reward him like one when it's time too?

I'm not entirely sure I wouldn't be holding out either...then again, priciples are important to me.
Let get this straight. PK played as our #1 defenseman because of injury (Markov) and we still finished deadlast in our conference last year. I understand the business of sports don't worry with that and we still own his right for 4 years before he can impose the team his fair right. As for the contract I don't think he deserves anything more than a John Carlson type of contract. Drew Doughty is not the best example as he was already among the top 5 in the business after his 2nd year and was labelled the franchise by his status (olympic champion and 2nd overall pick). If Subban can achive anything more substantial than being the best defenseman on one of the worst franchise last year I would consider giving him a hefty pay raise.

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01-16-2013, 01:09 PM
  #582
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So how long before someone offer-sheets him? And do you think the Habs will let him walk if it's 5-6 years 5-6mil/per?

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01-16-2013, 01:10 PM
  #583
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I would look to find out what Benn is asking for and see if a trade is possible.

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01-16-2013, 01:10 PM
  #584
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Well there's a philosophical difference of opinions then...and that's why he's still unsigned
Right. I think that's the best we'll do without numbers

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01-16-2013, 01:12 PM
  #585
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Originally Posted by habsfanatics View Post
These threads make my head hurt tbh. lol. The idea that PK is some unknown quantity who has yet to proven he's at least a top pairing dman are completely absurd. I think I'll leave this thread until he's signed.
Great idea, I think I'll follow you.

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01-16-2013, 01:15 PM
  #586
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I disagree with this entire post. Saying someone is still in a developmental stage at 23yrs old is accurate, but it says nothing about the value they place on PK. Actions speak louder than words. He lead the team in ice-time because he has game changing qualities and can perform adequately to above average in every situation. He's not without holes, but he's very integral to this team. MB and Therrien know this and it will be evident again by his ice-time.

I'm not throwing Prust under the bus, he filled a need, but there's not a chance in hell that he fills a bigger hole than PK Subban.

As a GM you need to pick your battles. Giving a 4 year 10 million dollar contract to an aging 4th liner and refusing to give the same term to your 2nd or 3rd best player is laughable and goes entirely against the so-called restrictive cap structure that people claim MB is enacting.

This has nothing to do with how the team, MB or Therrien value PK. This is entirely about trying to use their leverage to get to the UFA period with a lesser cap hit. They'd have to be blind to not value PK as one of their best players, because he is, without a doubt.
I agree with you. I'm just not certain MB and Therrien see it that way.

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01-16-2013, 01:18 PM
  #587
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
That's fair...but when other teams aren't using the same logic...PK is well within his right to asked for big money now.

Also, there's a huge misconception that I want to dispell right now...and that's the one that PK Subban hasn't proven anything

Nothing could be further from the truth
He's shown some very good things, also shown some not so good. Let's not get carried away either. Last year all those minutes etc were on an injury depleted defense that looked more like an AHL defense on a team that finished dead last in the Eastern Conference and had the worst powerplay in the league or close if I'm not mistaken.

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01-16-2013, 01:21 PM
  #588
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So how long before someone offer-sheets him? And do you think the Habs will let him walk if it's 5-6 years 5-6mil/per?
Absolutely they will let him walk..

That's a potential of 4 x 1st round pick!!

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01-16-2013, 01:24 PM
  #589
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Absolutely they will let him walk..

That's a potential of 4 x 1st round pick!!
Not so sure about that, if it's a team like Philly those 4 1st rounders are pretty much like early 2nd rounders. And you're trading a star with potential of being a superstar for a possible NHLer? Habs would be dumb IMO if they are to trade him it's for a proven NHL star

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01-16-2013, 01:24 PM
  #590
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Originally Posted by Jigger77 View Post
He's shown some very good things, also shown some not so good. Let's not get carried away either. Last year all those minutes etc were on an injury depleted defense that looked more like an AHL defense on a team that finished dead last in the Eastern Conference and had the worst powerplay in the league or close if I'm not mistaken.
He was our #1 D for the last half of the season in 2010-11 when we were probably going towards a 100 point season until Chara tried to kill Pacioretty.

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01-16-2013, 01:26 PM
  #591
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Originally Posted by Dharvey33 View Post
Gorges 3.9 Price 6.5 Markov 5.5 if i'm Subban and i see these contracts of course i want at least 5 mil if Price that hasn't won more than one playoff series get 6.5 mil than how much does Subban who shut down Crosby at his first playoff appearance get?

He should get at least 5 mil gtfo with the 3 mil in no kind of world will he accept that and he is right.
How come he would be less paid than Markov and Gorges when he is better then them right now and has still potential left.

Bergevin is starting to bother me, pay the kid for god's sake he is a major piece in the tabs right now and in the future he has got franchise dman labelled on him.
1) Markov was a free agent (huge difference), Gorges was also set to become UFA last summer
2) Both Markov and Gorges had to prove that they were good for more than 2 years and they went to same struggle of Subban early in their careers (mostly markov) to unwarranted big contracted player underperforming (see Rivet and Brisebois and I could even add Quintal and Malakhov)

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01-16-2013, 01:29 PM
  #592
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Originally Posted by Jeffrey View Post
I don't want Subban on our team if he want special treatment... I've been following hockey for long enough to know that overpaying for hold-out player is not a viable option. Let him rot at home !
OK sure, but let's have a discussion.

How much is Subban worth this year? I would say somewhere around 4 million. He has talent, and does help the team win. I also find him to be inconsistent at playing an uptempo game that he proves he is capable of.

Now if you agree with my description, do you see him getting better, staying the same, or getting worse? I personally see him getting better. He has the tools to be a #1 and he does seem like a dedicated player. I do not think he is there yet, based on last year, but I do believe he is not far away either. With the chance of him being able to reach his potential this season is what I think is throwing off the negotiations. If we take it year by year salary for multiple contracts, I see it like this:

2 year contract:
2013 ---------> 4,000,000$
2013-2014 ---> 5,000,000$
Cap hit of 4,500,000$

This to me does not benefit Subban or the Habs for that matter If he does pan out, we will now need to sign him where he might be able to demand 7 million a year, assuming he is a #1 D with Norris Candidate in his repertoire. At first I thought he should get a 2 year deal like Max and Carey got, but he really isn't in the same position they were after the ELC. Subban has done more and proved more than they did at this point. Max was having some confidence issues and Carey was fighting with Halak for the starting role. Subban last year took on some of the best players in the NHL and didn't do that as bad individually compared to how bad the whole team finished.


3 year contract:
2013 ---------> 4,000,000$
2013-2014 ---> 5,000,000$
2014-2015 ---> 6,000,000$
Cap hit of 5,000,000$

Not so bad I guess, keeps him on RFA status and we do this all again.

4 year contract:
2013 ---------> 4,000,000$
2013-2014 ---> 5,000,000$
2014-2015 ---> 6,000,000$
2015-2016 ---> 6,500,000$
Cap hit of 5,375,000$

I don't like him getting to UFA status in his prime. This could mean overpayment. With a star player who is possibly at the best point in his career... He gets a lot of cards on the table in this negotiation.

6 year contract:
2013 ---------> 4,000,000$
2013-2014 ---> 4,500,000$
2014-2015 ---> 5,000,000$
2015-2016 ---> 6,500,000$
2016-2017 ---> 7,000,000$
2018-2019 ---> 7,500,000$
Cap hit of 5,750,000$

Now based on this contract we have him signed until he is 30 with a very manageable 5.75 million cap hit. Provided he becomes a star this will be a great discount to have. At this cap hit he is tied with Markov for 15th highest cap hit by a defensemen.

Subban was 28th in scoring by a defensemen last season, which in essence makes him a #1 D for points since the league has 30 #1Ds technically (obviously a flawed way of looking at things, but it works for my argument) and the 28th highest cap hit for a defensemen is 4.6 million, which is not that far off with next years 4 million in salary for Subban. Edit: He was also 17th in ATOI last year for defensemen.

Right now I think I may be titling towards a long term deal because I have faith in Subban. I realize this all comes crashing down if he doesn't reach the ceiling a lot of us envision for him but then again 5.75 for Subban can't be that bad from what we have scene him do already.

I'm just eager for him to sign, we are a much better team with him in the lineup than not.


Last edited by CrAzYNiNe: 01-16-2013 at 01:36 PM.
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01-16-2013, 01:34 PM
  #593
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Originally Posted by Jeffrey View Post
1) Markov was a free agent (huge difference), Gorges was also set to become UFA last summer
2) Both Markov and Gorges had to prove that they were good for more than 2 years and they went to same struggle of Subban early in their careers (mostly markov) to unwarranted big contracted player underperforming (see Rivet and Brisebois and I could even add Quintal and Malakhov)
Well the rfa and UFA thing as been said countless times but still the situation is the same, if he doesn't want to sign he won't play here. Only thing is he can demand a trade or be signed to an offer sheet.

He can't walk like a ufa but still he can refuse to play for the team, looking at players like Lindros, Jack Johnson, Kyle Turris that just didn't want to play for their teams and had to be traded before their value would start decreasing.

People looking at the reality of the league knows that players wants to keep an exit door if thing don't go as planned, and that door is the UFA. Or course Subban wants a contract trough is free agency so then he can get out and sign for bigger bucks or stay and get a huge paycheck.

That's just business.

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01-16-2013, 01:35 PM
  #594
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He was our #1 D for the last half of the season in 2010-11 when we were probably going towards a 100 point season until Chara tried to kill Pacioretty.
Yeah...very, very debatable. Personally I think Hammer and Spacek were holding the ship together that year and Wiz was the reason the PP worked. Pk had a lot of points and a lot of icetime (more or less same as Markov, Hammer and Wiz) but his +/- was second last behind Gill among defensemen. And the PP worked thanks to Wiz. To say he was the #1 D that year is really a stretch if you ask me.

Edit: just realized you meant for the second half. Don't remember enough specifically about the second half to comment.

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01-16-2013, 01:36 PM
  #595
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Originally Posted by CrAzYNiNe View Post
OK sure, but let's have a discussion.

How much is Subban worth this year? I would say somewhere around 4 million. He has talent, and does help the team win. I also find him to be inconsistent at playing an uptempo game that he proves he is capable of.

Now if you agree with my description, do you see him getting better, staying the same, or getting worse? I personally see him getting better. He has the tools to be a #1 and he does seem like a dedicated player. I do not think he is there yet, based on last year, but I do believe he is not far away either. With the chance of him being able to reach his potential this season is what I think is throwing off the negotiations. If we take it year by year salary for multiple contracts, I see it like this:

2 year contract:
2013 ---------> 4,000,000$
2013-2014 ---> 5,000,000$
Cap hit of 4,500,000$

This to me does not benefit Subban or the Habs for that matter If he does pan out, we will now need to sign him where he might be able to demand 7 million a year, assuming he is a #1 D with Norris Candidate in his repertoire. At first I thought he should get a 2 year deal like Max and Carey got, but he really isn't in the same position they were after the ELC. Subban has done more and proved more than they did at this point. Max was having some confidence issues and Carey was fighting with Halak for the starting role. Subban last year took on some of the best players in the NHL and didn't do that as bad individually compared to how bad the whole team finished.


3 year contract:
2013 ---------> 4,000,000$
2013-2014 ---> 5,000,000$
2014-2015 ---> 6,000,000$
Cap hit of 5,000,000$

Not so bad I guess, keeps him on RFA status and we do this all again.

4 year contract:
2013 ---------> 4,000,000$
2013-2014 ---> 5,000,000$
2014-2015 ---> 6,000,000$
2015-2016 ---> 6,500,000$
Cap hit of 5,375,000$

I don't like him getting to UFA status in his prime. This could mean overpayment. With a star player who is possibly at the best point in his career... He gets a lot of cards on the table in this negotiation.

6 year contract:
2013 ---------> 4,000,000$
2013-2014 ---> 4,500,000$
2014-2015 ---> 5,000,000$
2015-2016 ---> 6,500,000$
2016-2017 ---> 7,000,000$
2018-2019 ---> 7,500,000$
Cap hit of 5,750,000$

Now based on this contract we have him signed until he is 30 with a very manageable 5.75 million cap hit. Provided he becomes a star this will be a great discount to have. At this cap hit he is tied with Markov for 15th highest cap hit by a defensemen.

Subban was 28th in scoring by a defensemen last season, which in essence makes him a #1 D for points since the league has 30 #1Ds technically (obviously a flawed way of looking at things, but it works for my argument) and the 28th highest cap hit for a defensemen is 4.6 million, which is not that far off with next years 4 million in salary for Subban.

Right now I think I may be titling towards a long term deal because I have faith in Subban. I realize this all comes crashing down if he doesn't reach the ceiling a lot of us envision for him but then again 5.75 for Subban can't be that bad from what we have scene him do already.

I'm just eager for him to sign, we are a much better team with him in the lineup than not.
I won't respond to you know a big analysis because i'm at work and on my cellphone but let just say i'm very sceptical about giving him a long contract yet... Okay if he wants a 8yrs deal at (4M$) I would consider it but over that he could become an albatross and untradable.

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01-16-2013, 01:39 PM
  #596
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I won't respond to you know a big analysis because i'm at work and on my cellphone but let just say i'm very sceptical about giving him a long contract yet... Okay if he wants a 8yrs deal at (4M$) I would consider it but over that he could become an albatross and untradable.
You would "consider it"?!?!?!? That would be the absolute best contract in the league for Christ sake!

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01-16-2013, 01:41 PM
  #597
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Absolutely they will let him walk..

That's a potential of 4 x 1st round pick!!
Think a team will offer him $8.3M a year?

More likely would be a first, a second and a third. Unless from a bottom dweller the compensation is not even close to his value.

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01-16-2013, 01:46 PM
  #598
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You would "consider it"?!?!?!? That would be the absolute best contract in the league for Christ sake!
Debatable Subban is not a #1 defenseman yet in my book.

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01-16-2013, 01:47 PM
  #599
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I won't respond to you know a big analysis because i'm at work and on my cellphone but let just say i'm very sceptical about giving him a long contract yet... Okay if he wants a 8yrs deal at (4M$) I would consider it but over that he could become an albatross and untradable.
You're joking right?

Travis friggin Zajac just got 5.75m for 8 years. Travis, Zajac.

PK at 4m is a steal. PK at 4m for 8 years, a contract lenght that covers his prime years, is the hockey equivalent of successfully robbing fort knox.

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01-16-2013, 01:47 PM
  #600
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Because opening the vault to a 4th liner coming off a career year and then locking yourself into a major contract imbroglio with arguably your best skater, a 23 year old who is homegrown (and has made it clear he wants to be here), is not a smart way to run a hockey team.
So what is the plan? Keep the same team that finished 28th last year and just pay those player higher salaries?

He had a need to address and this was the price he had to pay. That's how the UFA market works.

I understand that Prust won't make us a good team all of the sudden, but I fail to how this signing means that MB shouldn't stick to his philosophy when it comes to RFAs...

Montreal historically always had to overpay for UFAs and if we start to pay big bucks for our RFAs I really don't see how we can build a championship team in a salary cap world. It's not only about getting as many top performer as possible, but it's about fitting as much performance under the cap.

Sure you can point at Prust/Gionta/Kaberle/etc as being worst value than Subban at whatever amount he is asking for, but that is actually the point... You won't be able to build a great team only from the draft (except if you tank, which won't happen here), and you will most probably always overpay for UFAs, so your main hedge to get as much performance as possible under the cap comes from your RFAs. Now if you want to pay your RFA at their future UFA value, then good luck with building a championship team...

That being said, I totally understand that Subban probably don't care about that and he wants to be paid the same as his comparable peers, and this is what is making this negotiation so difficult...

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