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Laviolette Under Pressure to Change the System?

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Old
01-16-2013, 02:24 PM
  #26
G Money
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I don't know about you guys but i love watching our crazy comebacks. Down 2 3 4 it doesn't matter our attacking style always gives us a chance.

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01-16-2013, 02:25 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by OccupySouthBroadSt View Post
On paper it certainly doesn't seem to mesh with the system I agree and yeah the key is a good first pass but when teams like the Devils bum rush our D they are not mobile enough to even have a chance to get the first pass b/c we're running around like idiots trying to get puck possession. This is what concerns me but we have to see the actual product this year on the ice. Right now the setup seems counterintuitive.
It seems to me like a downward spiral.

-Pronger + Timonen along with all-star defensive forward cast make scrub look like all-star.
-Flyers fans chant about wanting a better goalie to put them over the top.
-Flyers reach on a headcase that performed at Vezina levels in a system where he was protected.
-Flyers ship out two star defensive forwards to get younger and improve the locker room.
-Pronger gets hurt, and Timonen starts to age so the protection deteriorates.
-Bryzgalov goes into significant slump just after Pronger injury.
-Flyers brass start to get heavier and slower / more defensive to counter the falling goals-against-average.
-More defensive players don't fit into system.

Now we have:
a) An average inconsistent headcase goaltender with no sustained system to safeguard him.
b) A defense totally contrary to the system because the management decided to blame the wrong issue as opposed to their **** signing.
c) A young forward core just developing into defensively responsible players which will suffer.
d) A headcoach under fire after he forcibly has his system, the same one that brought us to the Cup in 2010 and turned Leighton in a playoff shutout master, pulled out from under him.

This does not bode well.

Our only hope is that Bryzgalov plays well in this shortened season, and we quickly address the issue of a puck-moving defenseman. I think our defense is talented, but we're missing that guy who can rack up points with speed. That's who Timonen used to be. Not saying he sucks now, but he's not the great Timonen anymore.

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01-16-2013, 02:25 PM
  #28
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I think they'll be tightening up the defense for sure but they'll still be attack oriented. When we brought in a guy like Grossmann who can keep guys to the outside, work the body, and block shots; our defense improved a lot imo. Bringing in another guy who can play similar or BETTER in Luke Schenn will also be a major improvement.

Coupled with the fact that Timonen said our biggest problem against NJ was that we couldn't break the puck out with all left handed Dmen. So, Holmgren got Gervais, Schenn, and Foster to help in that regard.

I think the attack first system is fine and works under Lavi, and the team is buying into it. We have better defensive pieces and will hopefully focus more on blocking shots and taking the body and since our forwards are a year older and hopefully a bit better defensively, PLUS I think Bryz will play much better this season = I think we'll be okay.

I like this team, the coaching staff, and even the goalie. Let's just see how this season goes and make small adjustments accordingly

ALSO, last year we brought in Max Talbot from the Pens and we kicked there butts in the regular season and playoffs, perhaps thanks to some inside info he could provide. This year we brought in Fedotenko and I expect us to do better against the Rangers

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01-16-2013, 02:31 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyborg LeClair View Post
Coupled with the fact that Timonen said our biggest problem against NJ was that we couldn't break the puck out with all left handed Dmen. So, Holmgren got Gervais, Schenn, and Foster to help in that regard.

Schenn being right handed helps...Gervais and Foster...um they might as well have no hands. Having said this it's a good point about the right handed deficiency but I think there are bigger issues but let's see. Hopefully it all meshes...Bryz is key though.

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01-16-2013, 02:37 PM
  #30
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its like any other system. its all bout execution and i think the younger guys we got over the last couple of years are fast and smart but its just about having a top four to neutralize other top lines. Thats why grossmann and i think coburn are gonna be so important this year. please stay healthy.

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01-16-2013, 02:39 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
It seems to me like a downward spiral.

-Pronger + Timonen along with all-star defensive forward cast make scrub look like all-star.
-Flyers fans chant about wanting a better goalie to put them over the top.
-Flyers reach on a headcase that performed at Vezina levels in a system where he was protected.
-Flyers ship out two star defensive forwards to get younger and improve the locker room.
-Pronger gets hurt, and Timonen starts to age so the protection deteriorates.
-Bryzgalov goes into significant slump just after Pronger injury.
-Flyers brass start to get heavier and slower / more defensive to counter the falling goals-against-average.
-More defensive players don't fit into system.

Now we have:
a) An average inconsistent headcase goaltender with no sustained system to safeguard him.
b) A defense totally contrary to the system because the management decided to blame the wrong issue as opposed to their **** signing.
c) A young forward core just developing into defensively responsible players which will suffer.
d) A headcoach under fire after he forcibly has his system, the same one that brought us to the Cup in 2010 and turned Leighton in a playoff shutout master, pulled out from under him.

This does not bode well.

Our only hope is that Bryzgalov plays well in this shortened season, and we quickly address the issue of a puck-moving defenseman. I think our defense is talented, but we're missing that guy who can rack up points with speed. That's who Timonen used to be. Not saying he sucks now, but he's not the great Timonen anymore.
You forgot another letter

F) As in we were "effed" after not landing Suter or Weber

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Old
01-16-2013, 02:48 PM
  #32
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You won't see an updated system in a 48 game season.

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01-16-2013, 02:49 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
I think our defense is talented, but we're missing that guy who can rack up points with speed. That's who Timonen used to be. Not saying he sucks now, but he's not the great Timonen anymore.
I think he'd be a perfect fit on the top pairing with Coburn, but is just too old to play that many minutes per game anymore.

Honest question, for everyone: Why does nobody ever suggest Meszaros as the answer to slide in next to Coburn? I remember him playing really well, and while he's no juggernaut, seems to have a checkmark in the "mobile" box.

Coburn Meszaros
Grossman Timonen
Schenn

While far from perfect, I'm not sure why everyone's acting like it's the end of the world. Is Mez out of the question for the top pair? And if so, why.

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01-16-2013, 02:54 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Qyburn View Post
I think he'd be a perfect fit on the top pairing with Coburn, but is just too old to play that many minutes per game anymore.

Honest question, for everyone: Why does nobody ever suggest Meszaros as the answer to slide in next to Coburn? I remember him playing really well, and while he's no juggernaut, seems to have a checkmark in the "mobile" box.

Coburn Meszaros
Grossman Timonen
Schenn

While far from perfect, I'm not sure why everyone's acting like it's the end of the world. Is Mez out of the question for the top pair? And if so, why.
Probably just cautious from his TORN ACHILLES TENDON just a few months ago. But if he recovers well and plays well, I'm all for putting him on the top line with Coburn.

Coburn-Mez
Timonen-Schenn
Grossmann-Gervais

or something

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01-16-2013, 02:58 PM
  #35
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Yeah I just read that he was cleared for full activity. Though it sounds intuitive, I have no idea if it's difficult or not to recover 100% from that injury.

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01-16-2013, 03:14 PM
  #36
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Yeah I just read that he was cleared for full activity. Though it sounds intuitive, I have no idea if it's difficult or not to recover 100% from that injury.
Well it took Ryan Howard from October when he tore it until July before he played again. Mez tore his in August so if he's healthy now in January, it'd be a pretty fast recovery. I also dont know how often players come back 100% from it though

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01-16-2013, 03:18 PM
  #37
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i dont have high expectations for this team, if lav is not going to change his style, then i dont see this team going anywhere, you cant rely on the goalie to make impossible saves every game if the d doesnt get the rebounds, it's not possible and very unfair on the goalie to do that, if want him gone, what difference is bringing another goalie going to make? what goalies are out there if bryz struggles? they are not many of them, you cant give him a two year window, it could be a 5 year window, alot of goalies like fleury, jonathan gigučre, thomas, hasek, ed belfour, Nikolai Khabibulin etc, it took a long time for goalies to win a championship and if you do get rid of him and he wins a cup with a great team like getting rid of richards, carter, gagne, Williams

you really want to make fools of yourselves again if bryz finally wins a cup with another team and saying to yourselves, i wish we could have had him here? i mean great goalies had bad seasons and won cups the next years, quitting on bryz is like giving up on carter and richards and they win cups, i understand you want a cup as much as me but if you are desperate just trying to get rid of someone because you dont like him then what kind of a fan are you? what about sticking with your players for bad or worse and maybe they will get great defense players and great coach and they'll finally win one.



the problem is you want a win it all now goalie, there's no such thing, there's no guarantees, it's not possible, it's a team effort to win one.

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01-16-2013, 03:38 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by toughfighter83 View Post
i dont have high expectations for this team, if lav is not going to change his style, then i dont see this team going anywhere, you cant rely on the goalie to make impossible saves every game if the d doesnt get the rebounds, it's not possible and very unfair on the goalie to do that, if want him gone, what difference is bringing another goalie going to make?
Bryz was hardly letting through "impossible saves" all last season. For a solid 75% of the year he was particularly Leighton-esque. You can't pay a goalie $5.67m/year to not move well laterally, be constantly out of position, not cut down shooting angles, and not challenge shooters.

I can create a more successful team next offseason by signing Edler to replace Timonen, buying out Bryz, throwing L8on in net, and throwing Bryz's money at Streit or Regehr. Whitney and Hainsey are also UFAs this offseason potentially.

Coburn - Streit
Edler - Schenn
Meszaros - Grossmann

Leighton
Whoeverthe****

Quote:
Originally Posted by toughfighter83 View Post
what goalies are out there if bryz struggles?
Backstrom, Howard, Smith.

If I'm okay with Leighton, literally anyone will be an upgrade...as long as they don't cost $5 ****ing million a year to suck.

Quote:
Originally Posted by toughfighter83 View Post
you really want to make fools of yourselves again if bryz finally wins a cup with another team and saying to yourselves, i wish we could have had him here? i mean great goalies had bad seasons and won cups the next years, quitting on bryz is like giving up on carter and richards and they win cups, i understand you want a cup as much as me but if you are desperate just trying to get rid of someone because you dont like him then what kind of a fan are you? what about sticking with your players for bad or worse and maybe they will get great defense players and great coach and they'll finally win one.
Bryz played like ****. He has half a year to prove he isn't a completely **** goaltender. Hell, he already ****ed up the first half of this season over in Russia.

Quote:
Originally Posted by toughfighter83 View Post
the problem is you want a win it all now goalie, there's no such thing, there's no guarantees, it's not possible, it's a team effort to win one.
There's more of a guarantee if we spend money on a defense to cover up for Leighton than allowing Bryz to play at Leighton level for 3/4th of the year.

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Old
01-16-2013, 03:56 PM
  #39
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I agree with the above. There are a lot of mobile puck movers in next years UFA crop. Ian White, Streit, Whitney, Edler are all guys that could fit this system pretty well. We saw what a great top 4 could get you in 2010, our downfall was not even having an NHL guy in our last pairing.


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01-16-2013, 04:20 PM
  #40
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I love how everyone is crapping on Bryzgalov. The man had a bad year. And even then, it wasn't a bad year as much as it was a bad first half. Once again, the second half numbers: 18-8-1 with a 2.01 GAA and .946Pct. Excellent stats. He played in the first round with a bum foot and was great against New Jersey when the rest of the team didn't show up. Ridiculous how much crap Bryzgalov gets on here. The Flyers had a good goaltender in Martin Biron before everyone ran him out of town. Now we're seeing the same thing with Bryzgalov. No wonder why goalies don't last long around here. You don't come up with a shutout every game and you're garbage. Even a guy like Martin Brodeur or Patrick Roy couldn't survive in this environment.......

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01-16-2013, 04:23 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post
I love how everyone is crapping on Bryzgalov. The man had a bad year. And even then, it wasn't a bad year as much as it was a bad first half. Once again, the second half numbers: 18-8-1 with a 2.01 GAA and .946Pct. Excellent stats.
He came to play after the All-Star break but began to taper off again towards the end of the season. His first half was atrocious; not even NHL quality. 3/4 of the season for him was mostly garbage to average. He had an incredible, Vezina-worthy 1/4 of a season.

His flop over in Russia is also extremely concerning.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post
He played in the first round with a bum foot and was great against New Jersey when the rest of the team didn't show up. Ridiculous how much crap Bryzgalov gets on here.
He earned it by playing like ****.

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The Flyers had a good goaltender in Martin Biron before everyone ran him out of town. Now we're seeing the same thing with Bryzgalov. No wonder why goalies don't last long around here. You don't come up with a shutout every game and you're garbage. Even a guy like Martin Brodeur or Patrick Roy couldn't survive in this environment.......
We didn't run Biron out of town. He priced himself out of town. He wanted Tim Thomas money. That said, where the hell is Biron now?

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01-16-2013, 04:25 PM
  #42
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I love how everyone is crapping on Bryzgalov. The man had a bad year. And even then, it wasn't a bad year as much as it was a bad first half. Once again, the second half numbers: 18-8-1 with a 2.01 GAA and .946Pct. Excellent stats. He played in the first round with a bum foot and was great against New Jersey when the rest of the team didn't show up. Ridiculous how much crap Bryzgalov gets on here. The Flyers had a good goaltender in Martin Biron before everyone ran him out of town. Now we're seeing the same thing with Bryzgalov. No wonder why goalies don't last long around here. You don't come up with a shutout every game and you're garbage. Even a guy like Martin Brodeur or Patrick Roy couldn't survive in this environment.......
I think there's a possibility Bryz will put together a solid year, but all it is is a possibility. He hasn't proven much outside of Phoenix.

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01-16-2013, 04:37 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post
I love how everyone is crapping on Bryzgalov. The man had a bad year. And even then, it wasn't a bad year as much as it was a bad first half. Once again, the second half numbers: 18-8-1 with a 2.01 GAA and .946Pct. Excellent stats. He played in the first round with a bum foot and was great against New Jersey when the rest of the team didn't show up. Ridiculous how much crap Bryzgalov gets on here. The Flyers had a good goaltender in Martin Biron before everyone ran him out of town. Now we're seeing the same thing with Bryzgalov. No wonder why goalies don't last long around here. You don't come up with a shutout every game and you're garbage. Even a guy like Martin Brodeur or Patrick Roy couldn't survive in this environment.......
I seem to recall Bryz admitting that he pretty much stunk last season and he thanked his critics for it so it's not some contrived abberation from unreasonable fans who want to lynch Bryz although those people exist but are far from the norm despite the red herring perception that it is the rule versus the exception to the rule...

Biron didn't last b/c he was a fringe starter which he continued to prove upon leaving here.

I'm also quite sure Brodeur and Roy would not be run out of this town..the reason we haven't had a chance to is b/c our management has no clue how to draft, develop, trade for or sign a legit number 1 goalie. This goes back to Clarke who I recall vividly saying that Roy was washed up and a head case when he had that tiff with Montreal that eventually got him traded to Colorado which went on to win the Silverware. It is still etched in my brain and I can assure you it's not something I'm making up to besmirch Clarke...far from it. Just pointing out that we have a poor track record with goalies and it starts from the top. Chechmanek was the only thing decent we had for a while there and of course we couldn't support him with any offense b/c we had Hitchcock and his system that stifled the offense aspect. Ironic considering Lavi and the arguments against him. We seem to have no balance when it comes to coaches, goalies and D men...always vacillating and always comparing ourselves to the last team to win the cup. Meanwhile teams like NJ stick to a system and identity and they have had more success bringing home championships....ridik!

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01-16-2013, 04:56 PM
  #44
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These are Bryz's career games played and S%:

2005-06 Anaheim Mighty Ducks 31 0.910
2006-07 Anaheim Ducks 27 0.907
2007-08 Anaheim Ducks 9 0.909
2007-08 Phoenix Coyotes 55 0.921
2008-09 Phoenix Coyotes 65 0.906
2009-10 Phoenix Coyotes 69 0.920
2010-11 Phoenix Coyotes 68 0.921
2011-12 Philadelphia Flyers 59 0.909

3 out of 4 years in Phoenix with their defensive system he was around .92 whereas otherwise he is around .91.

For perspective, assuming the same 1554 shots on Bryz, that is 16 (rounded) less goals against and would have left the team ranked 11th in goals against vs 20th.

I do not know how many fewer goals the team would have in a defensive system, but it does seem questionable to play differently to make an otherwise average goalie into a good goalie, all the while not necessarily leading to more wins at all and possibly fewer.

Bryz was 26th in KHL goalies S% this year. I understand why people are worried about him.

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01-16-2013, 05:04 PM
  #45
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I hadn't followed the lockout. 26th? Christ that's bad.

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01-16-2013, 05:08 PM
  #46
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I hadn't followed the lockout. 26th? Christ that's bad.
He was beat out by Rastislav Stana.

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01-16-2013, 05:12 PM
  #47
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He was beat out by Rastislav Stana.
Well, in regards to Bryz, I've gone from "lets wait and see" to "I'm about to poop myself I'm that scared of another goalie controversy".

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01-16-2013, 05:15 PM
  #48
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He was beat out by Rastislav Stana.
And scratched (healthy) for backup Ilya Proskuryakov more than once.

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01-16-2013, 05:23 PM
  #49
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And scratched (healthy) for backup Ilya Proskuryakov more than once.
That too.

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01-16-2013, 05:30 PM
  #50
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And scratched (healthy) for backup Ilya Proskuryakov more than once.
I thought Proskuryakov was a shoot out specialist which was why he was always dressed as the backup?

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