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P.K Subban Thread 2.0

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01-16-2013, 01:48 PM
  #601
Marc the Habs Fan
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Originally Posted by Jigger77 View Post
Yeah...very, very debatable. Personally I think Hammer and Spacek were holding the ship together that year and Wiz was the reason the PP worked. Pk had a lot of points and a lot of icetime (more or less same as Markov, Hammer and Wiz) but his +/- was second last behind Gill among defensemen. And the PP worked thanks to Wiz. To say he was the #1 D that year is really a stretch if you ask me.

Edit: just realized you meant for the second half. Don't remember enough specifically about the second half to comment.
Yeah, the second half. After Gorges was done for the season and they had to change everything with the D.

Gill - Subban played the tough minutes against the other team's top lines. The 2nd pair was Hamrlik - Wiz and then we had a number of guys rotating on the bottom pair. Spacek was out from February 12th to April 7th that season.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play.../gamelog/2011/

Look at how many games with 23+ minutes of TOI after January 1st

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01-16-2013, 01:50 PM
  #602
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Originally Posted by Jeffrey View Post
Debatable Subban is not a #1 defenseman yet in my book.
4m is the salary you give an average second pairing defensemen these days.

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01-16-2013, 01:51 PM
  #603
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Originally Posted by FlyingKostitsyn View Post
You're joking right?

Travis friggin Zajac just got 5.75m for 8 years. Travis, Zajac.

PK at 4m is a steal. PK at 4m for 8 years, a contract lenght that covers his prime years, is the hockey equivalent of successfully robbing fort knox.
Yeah Meehan must be licking his chops now.

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01-16-2013, 01:51 PM
  #604
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Originally Posted by Jeffrey View Post
I won't respond to you know a big analysis because i'm at work and on my cellphone but let just say i'm very sceptical about giving him a long contract yet... Okay if he wants a 8yrs deal at (4M$) I would consider it but over that he could become an albatross and untradable.
Fair enough.

But in what business world is there no risk vs reward? Right now we have a chance to have a very talented player on a respectable cap hit. With a cap next year at 64.3, he will be making 8.94% of the cap. If he takes up 7 million in cap hit in 2-4 years, we will have a harder time finding money for other players. 7 million cap hit is 10.88%. Trying to fit the 23 players in 100% when one players takes away 11% sure makes it tough. I think Subban has shown enough to have faith that he will earn a future million a year. We need to give it to him now to be able to benefit with a lower cap hit in the future.

Again this all is based on him reaching potential. I understand your point, but playing it safe here only hurts the habs in the future. If for whatever reason we need to trade him, a cap hit of 5.75 million isn't horrible and the rich Canadiens can easily eat half his paid salary as the new CBA has allowed them.

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01-16-2013, 01:52 PM
  #605
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So what happens if Subban isn't signed by the start of the season and we go on an undefeated streak?

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01-16-2013, 01:52 PM
  #606
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Originally Posted by Habs 4 Life View Post
Not so sure about that, if it's a team like Philly those 4 1st rounders are pretty much like early 2nd rounders. And you're trading a star with potential of being a superstar for a possible NHLer? Habs would be dumb IMO if they are to trade him it's for a proven NHL star
Exactly. Sacrificing a future star like PK for the chance to land a future star is trading away four quarters for the possibility of a dollar.

Quote:
6 year contract:
2013 ----------> 4,000,000$
2013-2014 ---> 4,500,000$
2014-2015 ---> 5,000,000$
2015-2016 ---> 6,500,000$
2016-2017 ---> 7,000,000$
2018-2019 ---> 7,500,000$
Cap hit of 5,750,000$
I like this scenario the best. It gives us a financial bridge past PK's UFA status and ends up looking like a discount in a few years, when lots of other good defensemen will be making similar salaries. Obviously, it only makes sense if you believe he'll continue to improve and remain dominant, which I do.

The Habs have the cash and cap space to give Subban exactly this. But how do you reconcile this kind of commitment and money to the other young guys on the team, each of whom has their own agent who'll be using this contract as a reference when it's their client's turn? Bergevin has lots of balls he has to juggle.

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01-16-2013, 01:54 PM
  #607
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Originally Posted by habsfanatics View Post
I think PK Subban is every bit as valuable as Jordan Eberle and Jeff Skinner. I'd argue that he is a more vital piece, especially to us. I also think he has the most upside out of the three.
are you nuts, not sure if serious...... did you see how many goals Eberle scored last year, and you must of forgotten about Skinner's calder trophy year, I would trade PK for either one of those guys and then try to land a bigger fish.

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01-16-2013, 01:56 PM
  #608
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Originally Posted by e46330ivs View Post
are you nuts, not sure if serious...... did you see how many goals Eberle scored last year, and you must of forgotten about Skinner's calder trophy year, I would trade PK for either one of those guys and then try to land a bigger fish.
Considering Oilers fans themselves would trade Eberle for Subban...no he is not nuts.

http://www.coppernblue.com/2012/7/29...-oel-is-a-wimp

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01-16-2013, 01:59 PM
  #609
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Originally Posted by Lshap View Post
I like this scenario the best. It gives us a financial bridge past PK's UFA status and ends up looking like a discount in a few years, when lots of other good defensemen will be making similar salaries. Obviously, it only makes sense if you believe he'll continue to improve and remain dominant, which I do.

The Habs have the cash and cap space to give Subban exactly this. But how do you reconcile this kind of commitment and money to the other young guys on the team, each of whom has their own agent who'll be using this contract as a reference when it's their client's turn? Bergevin has lots of balls he has to juggle.
Subban had a very quick path to the NHL. How many of these players came into the NHL through a wonderful playoff story. He played all of 2 NHL games before playing 14 games in the playoffs. Personally, he dazzled me in that playoff run, well the whole team did. The only players right now in Subban position are Eller and Desharnais. I can see DD getting something like 2-3 years at around 4-5.5 if this year is as good as last years. But for whatever reason I just don't see him in MTL long term plans. If Eller is the player he is capable of, DD will be the expendable one. (Unless they decide to trade Pleks).

Subban has a right to ask for what he is asking for. Due to injuries he had a lot more responsibility than any other young player coming up and I don't see anyone doing what he did anytime soon. Maybe Gally does, but that is not of our concern since he never played a single NHL game.

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01-16-2013, 02:01 PM
  #610
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Because things can change. Because only a fool wouldn't at least listen to offers. I'm sure it's Bergevin's preference to not trade him, but I guarantee he's listening to offers. You never plan to trade a player like PK, but if the right offer comes along you always at least consider it.
I can see you don't live in Quebec so i understand. But if you did in fact live here you would understand why he will NOT be traded.

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01-16-2013, 02:02 PM
  #611
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Originally Posted by HawkeyeCB View Post
So what happens if Subban isn't signed by the start of the season and we go on an undefeated streak?
PK watches a few games from the end of the bench for missing camp and a week's worth of practice.

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01-16-2013, 02:02 PM
  #612
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Originally Posted by e46330ivs View Post
are you nuts, not sure if serious...... did you see how many goals Eberle scored last year, and you must of forgotten about Skinner's calder trophy year, I would trade PK for either one of those guys and then try to land a bigger fish.
I would love to get Eberle for Subban, he is incredible.

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01-16-2013, 02:02 PM
  #613
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Originally Posted by HawkeyeCB View Post
So what happens if Subban isn't signed by the start of the season and we go on an undefeated streak?
That's the risk PK and his agent are taking...just like the Habs are taking a risk if they don't sign him and lose the first 5 games.

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01-16-2013, 02:04 PM
  #614
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Originally Posted by HawkeyeCB View Post
So what happens if Subban isn't signed by the start of the season and we go on an undefeated streak?
Short term, sure you can make an argument that we don't need him and Bergevin can lowball him but we all know in the long run that this team is a LOT better with PK.

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01-16-2013, 02:09 PM
  #615
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Clutch eberle with the Habs? Anytime

IMO he is the best player they have and would be foolish to trade him i would do Subban for Eberle without a doubt.

But then we would have to move someone to get a good dman back i think Seabrook or Johnson could be had but we would need to sacrifice Plekanec.

If the deals turns out Plekanec Subban for Eberle Seabrook i would pull the trigger on it you can always smooth it out with draft picks.

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01-16-2013, 02:10 PM
  #616
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Originally Posted by ppil View Post
So what is the plan? Keep the same team that finished 28th last year and just pay those player higher salaries?

He had a need to address and this was the price he had to pay. That's how the UFA market works.

I understand that Prust won't make us a good team all of the sudden, but I fail to how this signing means that MB shouldn't stick to his philosophy when it comes to RFAs...

Montreal historically always had to overpay for UFAs and if we start to pay big bucks for our RFAs I really don't see how we can build a championship team in a salary cap world. It's not only about getting as many top performer as possible, but it's about fitting as much performance under the cap.

Sure you can point at Prust/Gionta/Kaberle/etc as being worst value than Subban at whatever amount he is asking for, but that is actually the point... You won't be able to build a great team only from the draft (except if you tank, which won't happen here), and you will most probably always overpay for UFAs, so your main hedge to get as much performance as possible under the cap comes from your RFAs. Now if you want to pay your RFA at their future UFA value, then good luck with building a championship team...

That being said, I totally understand that Subban probably don't care about that and he wants to be paid the same as his comparable peers, and this is what is making this negotiation so difficult...
The point is that paying PK something close to a UFA salary now saves us money in the future, when he would become a UFA and get considerably more. Saving approx 1 million on a two-year deal will be a false savings when the next contract jumps by three million for multiple seasons. The arguments against investing big now are 1) Lack of faith in PK's future, or 2) Concern over the precedent it would set with other players. I have faith in the kid, so I'm good with investing in him long-term. My bigger concern is the precedent it sets for future contracts. The best way to address that is to say, "Yes, we bent the rules for Subban. If you want the rules bent for you too, become a friggin' rock star on the ice!"


Last edited by Lshap: 01-16-2013 at 02:21 PM.
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01-16-2013, 02:12 PM
  #617
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Originally Posted by HawkeyeCB View Post
So what happens if Subban isn't signed by the start of the season and we go on an undefeated streak?
Then Subban's agent will blink

If we lose the first game(s), it's Bergevin who will blink.

That's how it's gonna go.

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01-16-2013, 02:13 PM
  #618
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Originally Posted by Dharvey33 View Post
Clutch eberle with the Habs? Anytime

IMO he is the best player they have and would be foolish to trade him i would do Subban for Eberle without a doubt.

But then we would have to move someone to get a good dman back i think Seabrook or Johnson could be had but we would need to sacrifice Plekanec.

If the deals turns out Plekanec Subban for Eberle Seabrook i would pull the trigger on it you can always smooth it out with draft picks.
You will NOT get Seabrook for Plekanec...that much i can promise you.

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01-16-2013, 02:14 PM
  #619
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I love it how the guys who were raging and calling the players greedy during the lockout are the same ones fighting for PK not signing for a little less than what he might be worth as a UFA.

If the "bridge" contract was good enough for Price it sure as hell is good enough for Subban.

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01-16-2013, 02:14 PM
  #620
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Originally Posted by CrAzYNiNe View Post
Subban had a very quick path to the NHL. How many of these players came into the NHL through a wonderful playoff story. He played all of 2 NHL games before playing 14 games in the playoffs. Personally, he dazzled me in that playoff run, well the whole team did. The only players right now in Subban position are Eller and Desharnais. I can see DD getting something like 2-3 years at around 4-5.5 if this year is as good as last years. But for whatever reason I just don't see him in MTL long term plans. If Eller is the player he is capable of, DD will be the expendable one. (Unless they decide to trade Pleks).

Subban has a right to ask for what he is asking for. Due to injuries he had a lot more responsibility than any other young player coming up and I don't see anyone doing what he did anytime soon. Maybe Gally does, but that is not of our concern since he never played a single NHL game.
Agree with every word (well, except right now I'd keep DD over Eller). But if I'm Bergevin, my biggest headache is selling the exact case you made to those other agents.

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01-16-2013, 02:15 PM
  #621
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Originally Posted by e46330ivs View Post
are you nuts, not sure if serious...... did you see how many goals Eberle scored last year, and you must of forgotten about Skinner's calder trophy year, I would trade PK for either one of those guys and then try to land a bigger fish.
Goal scorers are nice, but they are useless without skilled d-men that can also take care of their own end. The Goligoski for Neal trade shows d-men overall have more value than fans think. If you had a fan poll, 85% would have taken Neal ahead of Goligoski...and Pittsburgh also got Niskanen in the deal. Granted Neal's numbers are a bit inflated playing with 2 superstars but he is still a legit 60-65 point guy.

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01-16-2013, 02:17 PM
  #622
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Originally Posted by OneSharpMarble View Post
I love it how the guys who were raging and calling the players greedy during the lockout are the same ones fighting for PK not signing for a little less than what he might be worth as a UFA.

If the "bridge" contract was good enough for Price it sure as hell is good enough for Subban.
When Price got his he was coming off a year where he lost his starting job to Halak.

Pacioretty got his after starting the year in the AHL.

Subban is in a considerably stronger bargaining position.

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01-16-2013, 02:17 PM
  #623
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Originally Posted by Marc the Habs Fan View Post
Considering Oilers fans themselves would trade Eberle for Subban...no he is not nuts.

http://www.coppernblue.com/2012/7/29...-oel-is-a-wimp
I really dont care what a few Oilers fan say, their GM is not crazy enough to trade Eberle for Subban, so yes he's nuts, if im not mistaken he's not that far from ppg. in his first 2 seasons.

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01-16-2013, 02:18 PM
  #624
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You will NOT get Seabrook for Plekanec...that much i can promise you.
Neither team would make that trade. Chicago can't afford to lose him and we can't lose Plekanec.

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01-16-2013, 02:19 PM
  #625
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Originally Posted by OneSharpMarble View Post
I love it how the guys who were raging and calling the players greedy during the lockout are the same ones fighting for PK not signing for a little less than what he might be worth as a UFA.

If the "bridge" contract was good enough for Price it sure as hell is good enough for Subban.
Welcome to the human psyche. This is the same biological swampland that saw owners battling tooth and nail against long-term, inflated contracts that they themselves offered.

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