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Colorado Avalanche and Phoenix Coyotes

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Old
01-16-2013, 03:19 PM
  #26
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Originally Posted by CobraAcesS View Post
Funny how that works, and how it's been happening every year to Phoenix no matter what huh?

Edit: Most people expected Colorado to be in the lottery last year... Hence all the craziness over the Varlamov trade. We are starting to become a team that is very underrated.
I guess what you'd have to consider is if ROR's offensive production can be accounted for by internal means. Will Duchene and Stasty see a spike do to having less competition for minutes, for example. Will Landeskog take another big step offensively? That kind of thing. I honestly thing Boyd Gordon goes a very long way in making up the other components of being without ROR for the season. If you can still accomplish your goal of sneaking in, and do so with Gordon rather than ROR, than maybe you gained a bluechip blueline prospect in the process, rather than a guy who....quite frankly...is still playing in Russia despite his being Canadian and the lock-out being over. Spin that however you'd like, it ain't pretty. I don't think the value is off in my proposal when I try to be as honest as possible about it. I can definitely see your points about "fit", though.

I guess it boils down to Colorado first deciding they definitely want to trade ROR. If that decision is made, my proposal may be viewed differently. While there's still hope for his return, I can most certainly see why Colorado fans would be reluctant.

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01-16-2013, 03:26 PM
  #27
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He would be getting top 4 minutes on a weaker roster. Coyotes can afford to bring him along slowly, so they are. Ask anyone around hockey about him and you'd be hard pressed to find a hater. He is one of the best prospects out there right now. I'm not even sure why we are discussing his availability, because management is in love with him.



The Coyotes already have one of the better defensive centers in the game in Hanzal so they could really care less about his 'defense.' It's a nice plus, but we're talking about trading for a top 6 center here. That means offense. He has 1 solid season under his belt, offensively.



That's a strange argument. But you don't get the equivalent of 3 first round picks for a temperamental holdout. All indications are that the relationship between the Avs and ROR has soured, and that he has no intention of coming back unless his demands are met. As talented a player as he is, no team is going to be trampling the weak and hurtling the dead to acquire him for a premium. It is what it is.
So you are saying because the Coyotes have enough "defense", RORs value is only to be determined by his offensive production?

I am not arguing that Gormley is a good prospect. But he does not come close to ROR s value right now. 1 yr age difference. One guy is a proven future Selke contender with atleast decent offensive upside and the other one is a good prospect who has played 4 pro games.

Even if the relationship has soured, there is now way that Sherman sells him for this kind of value. Rather wait for the offseason and see if ROR caves. You can always trade him then. It is not like Gormley makes a huge difference regarding our playoff hopes.

And I hate these you won't get X amount of 1st. Ugh.
I would easily trade 5 1sts (25-30 range) for 1 1st if that first happens to be the next Crosby....
It all depends on the quality of the players available at said spot.

Avs are in no hurry if they are not a playoff team anyways. PHX is the one team which wants to contend.
So as an Avs fan it is Yandle or bust for me tbh.

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01-16-2013, 03:27 PM
  #28
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I guess what you'd have to consider is if ROR's offensive production can be accounted for by internal means. Will Duchene and Stasty see a spike do to having less competition for minutes, for example. Will Landeskog take another big step offensively? That kind of thing. I honestly thing Boyd Gordon goes a very long way in making up the other components of being without ROR for the season. If you can still accomplish your goal of sneaking in, and do so with Gordon rather than ROR, than maybe you gained a bluechip blueline prospect in the process, rather than a guy who....quite frankly...is still playing in Russia despite his being Canadian and the lock-out being over. Spin that however you'd like, it ain't pretty. I don't think the value is off in my proposal when I try to be as honest as possible about it. I can definitely see your points about "fit", though.

I guess it boils down to Colorado first deciding they definitely want to trade ROR. If that decision is made, my proposal may be viewed differently. While there's still hope for his return, I can most certainly see why Colorado fans would be reluctant.
You do realize that he is an RFA right? As well as a Canadian... Does anyone really believe he will stay in the KHL? Also the KHL's regular season only has something like 10 games left (That was earlier this week that I seen that as well.)

Also any trade involving O'Reilly would probably be similar to when we traded for Varly. With the incoming team for O'Reilly having full knowledge of the contract hes about to sign. Pretty much the same thing happened with Turris as well.

If his contract demands were not palatable to the team, or he wasn't willing to sign. The trade wouldn't even go down... Colorado will not just trade his rights blindly and take less value for him.

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01-16-2013, 03:32 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by JoemAvs View Post
So you are saying because the Coyotes have enough "defense", RORs value is only to be determined by his offensive production?
No. The Coyotes would be trading for him in the hopes that he is the center of the future and puts up big points. They have 1 season of that to go off of. This also happens to be the same reason he isn't in camp right now. He wants to be paid off that one season. The Avs want something a little more modest, and I can't blame them, given the sample size.

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01-16-2013, 03:36 PM
  #30
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As an Avs fan, I would much rather we go the Kulikov route if a trade is to be made.

I think Kulikov has the tools and potential to be better then both Gormley and Yandle.

And I certainly wouldn't add very much to Oreilly to get Yandle, if anything at all.


Thought we had some pretty good discussions about these two the other day, it would appear the level headed thinking has gone just a little bit.

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01-16-2013, 03:36 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by CobraAcesS View Post
You do realize that he is an RFA right? As well as a Canadian... Does anyone really believe he will stay in the KHL? Also the KHL's regular season only has something like 10 games left (That was earlier this week that I seen that as well.)

Also any trade involving O'Reilly would probably be similar to when we traded for Varly. With the incoming team for O'Reilly having full knowledge of the contract hes about to sign. Pretty much the same thing happened with Turris as well.

If his contract demands were not palatable to the team, or he wasn't willing to sign. The trade wouldn't even go down... Colorado will not just trade his rights blindly and take less value for him.
I do realize he's RFA, yes. I also realize no GM in their right mind would ever trade for him without having a deal worked out. I'm not convinced, however, that he's not willing to sit this season out. So his value to Colorado is diminished. That was my point, not that his trade value has decreased in any way. Just his value to this single season to your one single team.

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01-16-2013, 03:37 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Avsare1 View Post
Thought we had some pretty good discussions about these two the other day, it would appear the level headed thinking has gone just a little bit.
I think you are mistaken. I don't think any Coyotes fan stated they'd trade Yandle for O'Reilly (even with a few extras). I'd be shocked if any of us would.

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01-16-2013, 03:40 PM
  #33
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No right now he is not. How do you know that he will stick?
Right now he is a prospect who has shown nothing in the NHL. ROR is one year older than him and has 3 great seasons (not 1 like you insist, he was an absolute stud his first 2 years defensively with crap wingers) in the NHL to show for it.

ROR has a lot of room to grow. We don't know where his ceiling is.
We know his floor though. Gormley has a high ceiling but could easily bust.

So if we are talking Gormley for ROR, I need at least a very good prospect and a 1st added.
Why so much? Because I can see PHX winning it all with ROR this year.
So I don't think a 1st holds that much value
If that's the case, Maloney should check with Jamison, then sign him to the offer sheet up to the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd round picks. Force the Avs hand, and keep Gormley until his value peaks. Then decide what offer to take for Yandle or Gormley.

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01-16-2013, 03:42 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Kaibur View Post
If that's the case, Maloney should check with Jamison, then sign him to the offer sheet up to the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd round picks. Force the Avs hand, and keep Gormley until his value peaks. Then decide what offer to take for Yandle or Gormley.
They'd match.

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01-16-2013, 03:50 PM
  #35
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They'd match.
At a rate and/or term higher than they want to. And if they didn't, we'd be a Cup contender for the next couple of years. No harm, no foul.

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01-16-2013, 03:52 PM
  #36
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We aren't getting Yandle for RoR. Phoenix isn't getting RoR without Yandle/OEL.

/endthread.

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At a rate and/or term higher than they want to. And if they didn't, we'd be a Cup contender for the next couple of years. No harm, no foul.
Except it wouldn't happen. Avs and Phoenix have been good trading partners in the past, Maloney won't sour future negotiations just to make the Avs sign Radar to a higher contract/term then they'd like.

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01-16-2013, 03:55 PM
  #37
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At a rate and/or term higher than they want to. And if they didn't, we'd be a Cup contender for the next couple of years. No harm, no foul.
Phoenix does not have the financial capacity to try to squeeze the Kroenkes at the moment.

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01-16-2013, 04:07 PM
  #38
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Phoenix does not have the financial capacity to try to squeeze the Kroenkes at the moment.
Langkow made $4.25M last season in cash. He wasn't re-signed and his position and the corresponding budget space hasn't been distributed yet. And that's with the league-restricted, lowest budget in the league. In fact, the only reason the Yotes aren't being forced to make a trade to take on salary is because the cap floor dropped this season to $44M.

With an owner in place, the budget can go nowhere but up. If RoR is really looking for close to $5M per, the Yotes definitely have the financial capacity to make it happen without really increasing their league-basement budget at all. And if they win the Cup with the lowest budget in the league, all of the Yotes fans will rejoice and they'll make some cable-TV movie about the trials and triumphs of the little franchise that could.

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01-16-2013, 04:11 PM
  #39
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Except it wouldn't happen. Avs and Phoenix have been good trading partners in the past, Maloney won't sour future negotiations just to make the Avs sign Radar to a higher contract/term then they'd like.
If you're an Avs fan, you'd like to think it wouldn't happen and if you're a Yotes fan, you'd like to think it would.

If Maloney truly believes that adding RoR for 1st, 2nd, 3rd and $20M over 4 years would bring him a Stanley Cup, but would cost him a working relationship with a GM in the same Conference - you really think he wouldn't make the move?

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01-16-2013, 04:15 PM
  #40
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Langkow made $4.25M last season in cash. He wasn't re-signed and his position and the corresponding budget space hasn't been distributed yet. And that's with the league-restricted, lowest budget in the league. In fact, the only reason the Yotes aren't being forced to make a trade to take on salary is because the cap floor dropped this season to $44M.

With an owner in place, the budget can go nowhere but up. If RoR is really looking for close to $5M per, the Yotes definitely have the financial capacity to make it happen without really increasing their league-basement budget at all. And if they win the Cup with the lowest budget in the league, all of the Yotes fans will rejoice and they'll make some cable-TV movie about the trials and triumphs of the little franchise that could.
You seriously think Avs wouldn't insta-match a $5M offer sheet for Ryan O'Reilly?

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01-16-2013, 04:19 PM
  #41
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You seriously think Avs wouldn't insta-match a $5M offer sheet for Ryan O'Reilly?
I read that was the figure the player was looking for and management was looking for something around three and a half. I'm saying that Maloney could meet the player's asking price, knowing he'll give up three (hopefully late round) picks, burn a bridge with a former in-conference trade partner and have a very good chance of winning the holy grail before Shane Doan retires. And if Colorado matches, it will be at a number that they didn't want and will be limited in other parts of their budget accordingly, or their owner will have to pony up more money over the next couple years than he anticipated. Either way, the Yotes are better off for it.

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01-16-2013, 04:23 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Kaibur View Post
I read that was the figure the player was looking for and management was looking for something around three and a half. I'm saying that Maloney could meet the player's asking price, knowing he'll give up three (hopefully late round) picks, burn a bridge with a former in-conference trade partner and have a very good chance of winning the holy grail before Shane Doan retires. And if Colorado matches, it will be at a number that they didn't want and will be limited in other parts of their budget accordingly, or their owner will have to pony up more money over the next couple years than he anticipated. Either way, the Yotes are better off for it.
How are Coyotes better off for it? They will burn bridges not only with Avs but with other GMs who are trying to keep RFA salaries at a reasonable level.

There is a reason teams pretty much never use offer sheets. They don't work. You don't get the player and all it accomplishes is that it causes inflation. Maloney know this and that's why he would never do it.

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01-16-2013, 04:30 PM
  #43
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I read that was the figure the player was looking for and management was looking for something around three and a half. I'm saying that Maloney could meet the player's asking price, knowing he'll give up three (hopefully late round) picks, burn a bridge with a former in-conference trade partner and have a very good chance of winning the holy grail before Shane Doan retires. And if Colorado matches, it will be at a number that they didn't want and will be limited in other parts of their budget accordingly, or their owner will have to pony up more money over the next couple years than he anticipated. Either way, the Yotes are better off for it.
The Avs are well positioned in terms of future cap flexibility and they have a lot of cap space left.

An offer sheet actually solves many of their negotiating issues and enables them to move forward with the match.

As I stated, the Coyotes do NOT have the financial ability to squeeze the Avs and the owners (Kroenkes) at this time.

The Kroenkes are among the wealthiest owners in the NHL.

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01-16-2013, 04:35 PM
  #44
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How are Coyotes better off for it? They will burn bridges not only with Avs but with other GMs who are trying to keep RFA salaries at a reasonable level.

There is a reason teams pretty much never use offer sheets. They don't work. You don't get the player and all it accomplishes is that it causes inflation. Maloney know this and that's why he would never do it.
I don't actually know Maloney's stance on offer sheets. I don't recall ever hearing him say. If they hold another town hall this year, or if we do another meet and greet thing for season ticket holders, I'll ask him. I'd be interested to hear what he has to say, because he's been on both sides of the coin, so to speak.

I personally think that just because offer sheets have been done one way thus far, doesn't mean it will always be that way. After this crazy lock out, I won't be surprised if there are changes in the way some business is conducted. It sounded like some personalities really came out in the heat of those discussions.

It's not like I hold malice or anything. I had season tickets in Denver in 02-03 and I've still got some gear. I support the club in the city I live in, and I want them to win the Cup. Even if they have to be innovators and change the rules to make it happen. Because for the last 4 seasons, it's not like we were exactly on level playing ground.

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01-16-2013, 05:03 PM
  #45
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Didn't realize this thread was created for Yotes fans to crap on Avs fans. A deal involving ROR and Yandle is a solid starting point in which to make a trade.

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01-16-2013, 05:13 PM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PAZ View Post
We aren't getting Yandle for RoR. Phoenix isn't getting RoR without Yandle/OEL.

/endthread.

This made me laugh.

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Originally Posted by Hans Landaskog View Post
Didn't realize this thread was created for Yotes fans to crap on Avs fans. A deal involving ROR and Yandle is a solid starting point in which to make a trade.
So what are the Avs willing to add to get Yandle then?

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01-16-2013, 05:23 PM
  #47
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I wouldn't want to trade RoR for Yandle. Adding would be silly.

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01-16-2013, 05:37 PM
  #48
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Ryan O'Reilly led our team in points last year, and had the most ice time amongst forwards, and his line was our Top Line.

So I'm sorry if you don't see him as a Top-6 player, but facts are facts.
Yes, but only because of duchenes injuries and stastnys struggles. If he didn't play with landy he wouldn't be our leading scorer. Avs fans need to temper radars worth, ge had one ok year and no flashy skills. He isn't like Kesler or Bergeron as they showed high powered offensive skills. He isn't worth Yandle signed let alone holding out in Russia.

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01-16-2013, 05:37 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by PAZ View Post
We aren't getting Yandle for RoR. Phoenix isn't getting RoR without Yandle/OEL.

/endthread.
These are two number one defensmen mind you..

Is O'reilly your number one center?

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01-16-2013, 05:42 PM
  #50
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This made me laugh.



So what are the Avs willing to add to get Yandle then?
What do the other pieces have to be to make PHX part with Yandle? Can it be prospects, picks, and lesser NHLers. Does it depend on what those picks, prospects, and lesser NHLers are, or do you not think your need for a legit #2 center is that big to give up Yandle period?

To me it's a question of are you willing to move Yandle for a non superstar forward? Or basically just a forward in general, because it's highly unlikely a team would be willing to give up a much better center than O'Reilly around his age, and with his smarts and skills.

The Avs can make up the slight difference in value, because it's really not a huge gap unless you're underselling O'Reilly. PHX has to decide if they're willing to move Yandle for the forward they need though, or willing to take their chances and continue to bring in lesser forwards by giving up less.


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