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Old
01-16-2013, 07:06 PM
  #51
93gilmour93
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Originally Posted by Imagine17 View Post
Don't worry I knew that already.

I meant on the forums, benefitting your argument about what your GM will or won't do.
To each there own but there is so much crap thrown out there ( nonis included ) that the truth comes out in the end. Remember howson's demands for Nash. He didn't get close to what he said he wanted or no deal. You play the game and get the best deal you can.

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01-16-2013, 07:07 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by rune74 View Post
Kadri, bozak and a 1st would do it I think.
Eh, Toronto is gun shy about moving their first. I could live with subbing in Frattin or Fin instead of said first.

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Old
01-16-2013, 07:07 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Nuckles37 View Post
Ok, let's conveniently take out Niemi's worst year and take out Luongo's best year to skew the numbers in your favor.
I don't think excluding things that happened almost six years ago in favor of things that happened in the last 3 years is arbitrary or convenient. Especially when one of the goalies we are taking about is only 29.

Once again, noone debates that Luongo absolutely killed it in 2007. He was great....6 years ago.

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01-16-2013, 07:07 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by blankall View Post
That's heavily skewed by Luongo's 2007 numbers, where he posted a .941.

Meanwhile Niemi's numbers are heavily skewed by his horrible first year in the playoffs at age 24, which occurred when he was call up from the AHL, and he posted a .864.

Sorry Canucks fans, you aren't trading a 28 year old Luongo. All you've proved is that Luongo in his prime was better than an AHL call-up.
Ok so your saying you would rather have Niemi in your net than Lu? Forget the fact that all the stats suggest Lu is better your still gonna go with Niemi? If we all had your logic than I'm sure Bozak and 3rd for Lu would get it done but most people take Lu and we are expecting some decent talent in return for our all-star.

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01-16-2013, 07:09 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by rune74 View Post
Or because Loungo asked to go? Geez, you don't argue very well it's like you talk about one thing, get proven wrong then move on.
Not at all. I've been sticking to my point, which is that Luongo is not considered a top 5 goalie anymore, and he is not considered by management to be the best goalie on his team.

You are the ones who've been trying to nitpick at some side point.

Once again, please show me a list made after the 2012 playoffs, which has Luongo as a top 5.

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01-16-2013, 07:10 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Johnsie19 View Post
Ok so your saying you would rather have Niemi in your net than Lu? Forget the fact that all the stats suggest Lu is better your still gonna go with Niemi? If we all had your logic than I'm sure Bozak and 3rd for Lu would get it done but most people take Lu and we are expecting some decent talent in return for our all-star.
No, that was Bleacher's opinion. I would personally not have included Bryz or Niemi in the top of that list. Although, I would go with Niemi if I had to choose between the two contracts.

Both Bryz and Luongo are coming off bad seasons and have horrendous contracts.

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Old
01-16-2013, 07:12 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by blankall View Post
That's heavily skewed by Luongo's 2007 numbers, where he posted a .941.

Meanwhile Niemi's numbers are heavily skewed by his horrible first year in the playoffs at age 24, which occurred when he was call up from the AHL, and he posted a .864.

Sorry Canucks fans, you aren't trading a 28 year old Luongo. All you've proved is that Luongo in his prime was better than an AHL call-up.
So much wrong in one sentence. First off, Niemi's first game in the playoffs was in 09-10, so you obviously confused the 3 regular season games he played in 08-09 as playoff ones. Second of all, even you did read correctly, how in the hell is a 3 game sample going to "heavily skew" Niemi's playoff numbers in the other 45 playoff games he's played?

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Old
01-16-2013, 07:14 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by opendoor View Post
So much wrong in one sentence. First off, Niemi's first game in the playoffs was in 09-10, so you obviously confused the 3 regular season games he played in 08-09 as playoff ones. Second of all, even you did read correctly, how in the hell is a 3 game sample going to "heavily skew" Niemi's playoff numbers in the other 45 playoff games he's played?
Fair enough.

My point about Luongo's numbers still stands. You guys are relying heavily on his 2007 performance to say he is currently a great playoff performer. Nothing could be further from the truth. He blew it big time in his last appearance and was replaced by his backup after two games.

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Old
01-16-2013, 07:19 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blankall View Post
I don't think excluding things that happened almost six years ago in favor of things that happened in the last 3 years is arbitrary or convenient. Especially when one of the goalies we are taking about is only 29.

Once again, noone debates that Luongo absolutely killed it in 2007. He was great....6 years ago.
Okay, last three years; playoffs only.

Anti Niemi
2009-2010: 18GP .910% 2.63
2010-2011: 22GP .896% 3.22
2011-2012: 5GP .914% 2.45

Roberto Luongo
2009-2010: 12GP .895% 3.22
2010-2011: 25GP .914% 2.56
2011-2012: 2GP .891% 3.59

Similar to an extent but the recent 2012 is only poor due to a low number of games and Vancouver's abysmal display against the Kings.

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Old
01-16-2013, 07:21 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by blankall View Post
umm...Niemi has by far the best playoff numbers of the 3. He also won a cup, while Luongo just got pulled in favor of his backup. In fact, it's Luongo's playoff performance that has his stock in jeopardy.
Ummm...and Niemi was so great, that when the Hawks went about locking up their key players for future Cup runs, Niemi's one they let get away.

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01-16-2013, 07:23 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by blankall View Post
Fair enough.

My point about Luongo's numbers still stands. You guys are relying heavily on his 2007 performance to say he is currently a great playoff performer. Nothing could be further from the truth. He blew it big time in his last appearance and was replaced by his backup after two games.
Playoffs are such small sample sizes that anyone trying to glean anything, especially when excluding certain years, is going to run into a lot of noise. 20-30 games samples simply aren't enough to draw any kind of serious conclusions from, especially when balanced against the much larger sample of 60+ games every single season.

The fact is that Luongo is consistently around .919-920 throughout his career both in the regular season and playoffs over the long term and he'll likely be even better in the short term with the increase in obstruction that's happening. There aren't many goalies you can say that about and that's why he's highly regarded, irrespective of the odd poor showing in the playoffs.

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Old
01-16-2013, 07:25 PM
  #62
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Lol now they don't even want to move Kadri

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Old
01-16-2013, 07:28 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
Okay, last three years; playoffs only.

Anti Niemi
2009-2010: 18GP .910% 2.63
2010-2011: 22GP .896% 3.22
2011-2012: 5GP .914% 2.45

Roberto Luongo
2009-2010: 12GP .895% 3.22
2010-2011: 25GP .914% 2.56
2011-2012: 2GP .891% 3.59

Similar to an extent but the recent 2012 is only poor due to a low number of games and Vancouver's abysmal display against the Kings.

So it's laughable that Niemi is in the top 12, but Luongo with very similar numbers and no cup is definitely in the top 5....I hope you see my point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chief View Post
Ummm...and Niemi was so great, that when the Hawks went about locking up their key players for future Cup runs, Niemi's one they let get away.
No it's a reflection of how the goalie market has changed since the introduction of the cap. No one wants to hand out long term contracts to goalies anymore. Too many people have been stung. The emphasis has been on flexibility and tying up little cap in the goalie position. Teams are looking to be able to swap out a goalie if they falter.

In other words, your point only proves that teams are, in general, no longer looking to build out from the net. And with good reason. Lundqvist and Rinne seem to be the only two goalies worth the long term risk. Even then, either could fall apart.

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Old
01-16-2013, 07:28 PM
  #64
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Lol now they don't even want to move Kadri
And this is why these threads descend into idiocy. Half the time it becomes "Luongo sucks for x. But we'll take him for trash!"

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Old
01-16-2013, 07:33 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by blankall View Post
So it's laughable that Niemi is in the top 12, but Luongo with very similar numbers and no cup is definitely in the top 5....I hope you see my point.
No I do not. Niemi has widely inferior numbers overall and in the regular season and despite what appears to be decent stats for the 2012 playoffs, has been criticised as the reason why Chicago lost. The closest comparison is when both goalies played a near similar amount of games: 2011. Luongo slaughters him, while including the Boston series.

Niemi's best season was on a massively stacked Chicago team. He has been inconsistent ever since.

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01-16-2013, 07:38 PM
  #66
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Niemi, Luongo...

Look, if you believe TO is better equipped in net with Niemi, don't let anyone tell you different. Go with that.

Personal list of who would best do the job in net tomorrow: Quick, Lundq, Price, Lu, Kipr, Rinne, Smith, Howard, Rask, etc.

Fleury, Brodeur, Ward, Schneider would come a fair bit later. I honestly don't see what people see in Fleury either. I think it's first overall syndrome.

The whole goalie controversy doesn't make Schneids a better goalie, he's got a lot to prove. But they want to take their chance on him going forward. He's got a bit of a shake to him that's gotta cool down some. When it comes to Lu, he really has to be one of the very best at stopping the first shot. His play out of the net isn't great, he isn't the best at scrambling, although he's alright, his shootout/penalty shot goaltending is mediocre, but stopping that first shot in a game situation, there won't be many better than him for a while. His rebound control is great, his positioning is fantastic, and he's big with great reflexes. Regardless of which team ends up with him, he'll be a solid goalie for a while with the idea that it's only his reflexes that might dip - although he seems edgy enough to keep them for a while as well.

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Old
01-16-2013, 07:42 PM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
Eh, Toronto is gun shy about moving their first. I could live with subbing in Frattin or Fin instead of said first.
I couldn't. That's terrible value for a top 5 goaltender.

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Old
01-16-2013, 07:49 PM
  #68
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I couldn't. That's terrible value for a top 5 goaltender.
It's average. Toronto fans probably feel it's too much, Vancouver fans want more. Most trades have that description.

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Old
01-16-2013, 07:50 PM
  #69
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Is this guy ever getting traded?

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Old
01-16-2013, 07:50 PM
  #70
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When Luongo needs to be traded:
  • ̶2̶0̶1̶2̶ ̶D̶r̶a̶f̶t̶
  • ̶̶S̶c̶h̶n̶e̶i̶d̶e̶r̶ ̶w̶i̶l̶l̶ ̶s̶i̶g̶n̶ ̶l̶o̶n̶g̶ ̶t̶e̶r̶m̶
  • ̶L̶a̶c̶k̶ ̶w̶i̶l̶l̶ ̶s̶i̶g̶n̶ ̶l̶o̶n̶g̶ ̶t̶e̶r̶m̶
  • ̶T̶r̶a̶i̶n̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶C̶a̶m̶p̶ ̶s̶t̶a̶r̶t̶s̶
  • Training Camp ends
  • Regular Season starts
  • Trade deadline
  • 2013 draft
  • 2013 training camp starts
  • 2013 training camp ends
  • etc...

My bet is 2013 training camp ends (made this bet last draft)... Luongo goes to auction next September/October, IMHO... Any team willing to wait, could get Luongo at a good price... Best price wins... Good Luck!

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Old
01-16-2013, 08:08 PM
  #71
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Niemi is better than Luongo?

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Old
01-16-2013, 08:12 PM
  #72
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I'm really looking forward to seeing Luongo start the season with us. I really think he has a solid chance at winning the starter's job back.

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Old
01-16-2013, 08:30 PM
  #73
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Lol now they don't even want to move Kadri
There is no need to move Kadri; there never has been. That has never changed.

Keep Luongo; the Leafs are not looking to kneecap themselves for the next decade.

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Old
01-16-2013, 08:32 PM
  #74
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I'm really looking forward to seeing Luongo start the season with us. I really think he has a solid chance at winning the starter's job back.
I would think so; you did sign him for a decade to a price fitting a starter. How long will Cory sit happy?

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Old
01-16-2013, 08:35 PM
  #75
Vankiller Whale
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I would think so; you did sign him for a decade to a price fitting a starter. How long will Cory sit happy?
Dunno. Either way I think waiting until the season starts to see how we play is probably the best path forward for us.

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