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HOH Top 40 Goaltenders of All Time

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01-17-2013, 01:27 AM
  #76
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Was 1965-1978 the golden era of goaltending?
Look at our peak year in 1970: I'm sure it has more to do with five goaltenders hanging on past 38. I mean, who were our old goaltenders in 1950 and 1998? Turk Broda (35) with one year left on his expiration date? Grant Fuhr (35) who was about to turn sour himself?

I don't think goaltending had caught up to the first expansion, hence the ability for multiple HOFers to hang on from 38-45 and still find work in the highest league. Nowadays, goaltending is definitely catching up to the point of some teams having two legitimate starters in a 30-team league (Vancouver is so selfish). The position is extremely popular, unlike in past generations. I mean, who doesn't want to be the goaltender?

So, no, expansion was not the golden era. I'd say it was the 1950s and 1960s when everyone had a HOFer.

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01-17-2013, 01:30 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post

So, no, expansion was not the golden era. I'd say it was the 1950s and 1960s when everyone had a HOFer.
It would be interesting to see the above list with only goalies 38 and under.

(I think the golden era was the late 90s/early 00s when top-end talent was as good as it ever was and you had much more depth from Europe and the US).

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01-17-2013, 01:40 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
It would be interesting to see the above list with only goalies 38 and under.

(I think the golden era was the late 90s/early 00s when top-end talent was as good as it ever was and you had much more depth from Europe and the US).
In terms of sheer quantity and depth, you're absolutely right, but looking at just the elite of the elite, once we get past the wash that is Roy/Hasek/Brodeur vs. Plante/Hall/Sawchuk, I'm not sure that the older generation doesn't start to pull away with it depending on how you set the exact time frame. No wrong answer between the two though.

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01-17-2013, 01:47 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
In terms of sheer quantity and depth, you're absolutely right, but looking at just the elite of the elite, once we get past the wash that is Roy/Hasek/Brodeur vs. Plante/Hall/Sawchuk, I'm not sure that the older generation doesn't start to pull away with it depending on how you set the exact time frame. No wrong answer between the two though.
I don't think the older generation pulls away after you get past the elite of the elite. In fact, I'd say that if anything, it's probably the opposite.

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01-18-2013, 07:51 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
Look at our peak year in 1970: I'm sure it has more to do with five goaltenders hanging on past 38. I mean, who were our old goaltenders in 1950 and 1998? Turk Broda (35) with one year left on his expiration date? Grant Fuhr (35) who was about to turn sour himself?

I don't think goaltending had caught up to the first expansion, hence the ability for multiple HOFers to hang on from 38-45 and still find work in the highest league. Nowadays, goaltending is definitely catching up to the point of some teams having two legitimate starters in a 30-team league (Vancouver is so selfish). The position is extremely popular, unlike in past generations. I mean, who doesn't want to be the goaltender?

So, no, expansion was not the golden era. I'd say it was the 1950s and 1960s when everyone had a HOFer.
I saw this as well and am beginning to wonder why?

Probably has something to do with all those top 5 finishes in various categories when there are only 6 teams.

Goaltending isn't my forte, that's why I didn't participate in this project but I really think that people tend to understate the amount of variance that goes on in a league with a larger amount of teams when compared to a league of quite a small number.

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01-19-2013, 09:31 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
I saw this as well and am beginning to wonder why?

Probably has something to do with all those top 5 finishes in various categories when there are only 6 teams.

Goaltending isn't my forte, that's why I didn't participate in this project but I really think that people tend to understate the amount of variance that goes on in a league with a larger amount of teams when compared to a league of quite a small number.
Or something to do with the 6 best goaltenders in the world playing in that 6 team league.

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01-19-2013, 07:06 PM
  #82
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Or something to do with the 6 best goaltenders in the world playing in that 6 team league.
I guess that statement can be true at almost any stage in history, or at least for the vast majority over the last 120 years in hockey.

But like I said there is very little variance in a 6 team league compared to a 21 plus team league.

But it seems rather odd that the bulge in top goalies and Dmen comparatively speaking over all time in hockey seems rather large in the 06 era and the early post expansion.

Players from both before and after these time periods really get the short end of the stick in these matters at times.

It will be interesting to see if this trend or bias continues on to forwards.

I will have more thoughts on this topic when we hit those projects.


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01-19-2013, 07:15 PM
  #83
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i don't know how you can say we've overrated O6 goalies when the numbers clearly show that we are overrating post-expansion/1970s goalies. Or if you think we should have more 1970s goalies because of the growth of hockey in Europe, then the increased numbers should continue past 1980 and they don't.

Either way,there is no reason to think we have too many O6 goalies. Basically, we have too many 1970s goalies compared to 1980 and beyond goalies. Whether you think the post-1970 numbers should be in line with the O6 or whether they should increase because of increased talent in Europe is an open question.


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01-19-2013, 11:19 PM
  #84
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i don't know how you can say we've overrated O6 goalies when the numbers clearly show that we are overrating post-expansion/1970s goalies. Or if you think we should have more 1970s goalies because of the growth of hockey in Europe, then the increased numbers should continue past 1980 and they don't.

Either way,there is no reason to think we have too many O6 goalies. Basically, we have too many 1970s goalies compared to 1980 and beyond goalies. Whether you think the post-1970 numbers should be in line with the O6 or whether they should increase because of increased talent in Europe is an open question.
While my initial comment was about the 06 goalies, I did expand that observation to 06 and early post expansion for the overall grouping of goalies and Dmen.

Maybe it's a positional thing and the post 80's forward group with Bure, Forsberg, Sundin, Federov, Thorton ect... might tip things back into balance, or less of a bulge.

In fairness forwards are more easy to judge as their games are more based on simple statistics and are easier to rank that way.

I just hope that voters will consider the differences between top 5 and 10 finishes (as an example) in an all Canadian 6 team league and make allowances for the differences, Us and European players plus more teams and variance possibilities, in the NHL post early 90's.

One easy way to see these differences is to look at post season all star selections and the nationality makeup of them over time.

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01-20-2013, 09:49 PM
  #85
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Incomplete Goalies

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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
While my initial comment was about the 06 goalies, I did expand that observation to 06 and early post expansion for the overall grouping of goalies and Dmen.

Maybe it's a positional thing and the post 80's forward group with Bure, Forsberg, Sundin, Federov, Thorton ect... might tip things back into balance, or less of a bulge.

In fairness forwards are more easy to judge as their games are more based on simple statistics and are easier to rank that way.

I just hope that voters will consider the differences between top 5 and 10 finishes (as an example) in an all Canadian 6 team league and make allowances for the differences, Us and European players plus more teams and variance possibilities, in the NHL post early 90's.

One easy way to see these differences is to look at post season all star selections and the nationality makeup of them over time.
O6 goalies and skaters had complete skills. Goalies could direct rebounds out of danger, quarterback the defensive zone setting up the transition, handle the puck ti avoid faceoffs, etc.

Today's goalies regardless of their provenance cannot complete these basic skills. They rely on pad hardness to propel the puck out of danger or equipment to compensate for other weaknesses, cause panic defensive zone faceoffs, miscommunicate with teammates causing defensive zone faceoffs or turnovers.

Does not matter if they are Canadian, American, European or other provenance today's goalies are not as good.

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01-20-2013, 09:54 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
O6 goalies and skaters had complete skills. Goalies could direct rebounds out of danger, quarterback the defensive zone setting up the transition, handle the puck ti avoid faceoffs, etc.

Today's goalies regardless of their provenance cannot complete these basic skills. They rely on pad hardness to propel the puck out of danger or equipment to compensate for other weaknesses, cause panic defensive zone faceoffs, miscommunicate with teammates causing defensive zone faceoffs or turnovers.

Does not matter if they are Canadian, American, European or other provenance today's goalies are not as good.
This sounds like an awfully rose-colored view of the past. Wasn't Jacques Plante a pioneer because he handed the puck regularly? Would make it seem like other O6 goalies did not handle the puck regularly.

Also, if you want to criticize today's goalies for not having certain skills, that's fine, but be fair about it. How many O6 goalies could execute a perfect butterfly?

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01-20-2013, 10:02 PM
  #87
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Why?

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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
This sounds like an awfully rose-colored view of the past. Wasn't Jacques Plante a pioneer because he handed the puck regularly? Would make it seem like other O6 goalies did not handle the puck regularly.

Also, if you want to criticize today's goalies for not having certain skills, that's fine, but be fair about it. How many O6 goalies could execute a perfect butterfly?
Okay let's be fair about it. Why would an O6 goalie want to execute a perfect butterfly?. The pads are easily 15-17 pounds heavier so the fatigue factor over 60 minutes, 70 games has to enter the picture.. He is giving away the backhand and east-west game. So why does a skill that makes him a weaker goalie important?

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01-20-2013, 10:22 PM
  #88
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Okay let's be fair about it. Why would an O6 goalie want to execute a perfect butterfly?. The pads are easily 15-17 pounds heavier so the fatigue factor over 60 minutes, 70 games has to enter the picture.. He is giving away the backhand and east-west game. So why does a skill that makes him a weaker goalie important?
Maybe it wasn't the best example, but I don't think one generation should be punished for lacking skills as a whole that another one needed. Gets awfully close to talking about how every player today is a great skater.

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01-20-2013, 10:28 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Okay let's be fair about it. Why would an O6 goalie want to execute a perfect butterfly?. The pads are easily 15-17 pounds heavier so the fatigue factor over 60 minutes, 70 games has to enter the picture.. He is giving away the backhand and east-west game. So why does a skill that makes him a weaker goalie important?
And got heavier the wetter it got

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01-20-2013, 11:07 PM
  #90
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Maybe it wasn't the best example, but I don't think one generation should be punished for lacking skills as a whole that another one needed. Gets awfully close to talking about how every player today is a great skater.
Absolutely agree with not trying to punish any generations but I also don't see an even playing field being put out there either.

As for C1958 assertion of complete skills in the 06 league, I'll be polite and say absolute rubbish.

There is a real sense of nostalgia among some, thankfully not many, poster about that time era.

It's fair to say that game play was different due to equipment, training and just the lack of international status of the game.

Generally speaking though the level of skating and defensive play was nowhere near the level of competition that it has been in the last 20 years.

I really think that with 30 teams for quite a long period of time and 21 plus for the last 30 plus years, the amount of variance and the play of the big 3 in Roy, Hasek and Broduer has obscured the great level of goal tending.

I mean in the era of defensive hockey of the aslt 15 years shouldn't goalies and Dmen stand out? no doubt forwards are going to be punished for not scoring as much or dominating as much when we get to them further in the project.

It's possible but unlikely that all 3 positions (F,D,G) take a hit in the last 15 years but extremely unlikely IMO.

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01-20-2013, 11:35 PM
  #91
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I mean in the era of defensive hockey of the aslt 15 years shouldn't goalies and Dmen stand out? no doubt forwards are going to be punished for not scoring as much or dominating as much when we get to them further in the project.
That's why we have adjusted stats: To even the playing field between disparate eras.

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01-20-2013, 11:47 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
O6 goalies and skaters had complete skills. Goalies could direct rebounds out of danger, quarterback the defensive zone setting up the transition, handle the puck ti avoid faceoffs, etc.

Today's goalies regardless of their provenance cannot complete these basic skills. They rely on pad hardness to propel the puck out of danger or equipment to compensate for other weaknesses, cause panic defensive zone faceoffs, miscommunicate with teammates causing defensive zone faceoffs or turnovers.

Does not matter if they are Canadian, American, European or other provenance today's goalies are not as good.
What do you think the reason behind this is?

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01-21-2013, 12:52 AM
  #93
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i don't know how you can say we've overrated O6 goalies when the numbers clearly show that we are overrating post-expansion/1970s goalies.
If anything, I'd say we're overrating pre-O6 goaltenders.

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01-21-2013, 09:58 AM
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Teaching Goalies

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What do you think the reason behind this is?
If looking for a reason then it is the fact that goalies are rushed to the NHL with by a teaching approaching that focuses on the Butterfly as the lowest common denominator since it irons out the deficiencies.

Watch how a number of goalies struggled this past weekend and will continue to do so during the rest of the 2012-13 season.

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01-21-2013, 11:47 AM
  #95
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And got heavier the wetter it got
Very true. When the newer generation of pads came along in the mid to late 80's, it became far easier to adapt & adopt ones style that gradually saw the change from Stand-Up to Butterfly. Goaltending equipment got bigger (as did goalies being drafted) in order to compensate, fight back if you will against the new generation of stick, composites. Suddenly everyone had a killer shot, difficult to determine flight patterns, which when combined with the evolution of how the game was being played, constant cycling in the offensive zone, forced goalies back into their crease a lot more. Playing the position much like a tabletop hockey game goalie. Movement East-West, legs akimbo for every shot, back upright, covering as much of the net as they can. Scrambles & screens. Weird angled shots from in close etc.

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If anything, I'd say we're overrating pre-O6 goaltenders.
I think thats a pretty honest & astute observation quite frankly. Though on the other side, post 1980's, some questionable inclusions & picks.... and no, not gettin into a debate who they might be.


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01-21-2013, 12:53 PM
  #96
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If looking for a reason then it is the fact that goalies are rushed to the NHL with by a teaching approaching that focuses on the Butterfly as the lowest common denominator since it irons out the deficiencies.

Watch how a number of goalies struggled this past weekend and will continue to do so during the rest of the 2012-13 season.
Is there any organization or training school that is attempting to buck the trend here and sacrifice early success for a better final product?

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01-21-2013, 03:23 PM
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Excellent Question.

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Is there any organization or training school that is attempting to buck the trend here and sacrifice early success for a better final product?
Excellent Question.NHL, this gradually disappeared in the nineties with the first lock-out. GMs are pressured to win now while agents pressure to promote now.

There are loose collectives of training goalies in certain areas - Ottawa District, Ron Tugnutt hass advanced things. While the greater Montreal area has a loose collective that dates back to the Jacques Plante era, thru various minor pros, coaches, schools that introduced Francois Allaire, followed by Martin Brodeur and continuing with the likes of Corey Crawford and Jonathan Bernier.

Finland is doing interesting things as is Sweden. Russia is making progress. Point with the Europeans is that they produce high skilled ground floor - primary skill goalies - mobility, positioning that are very weak at adaptability, puckhandling, quarterbacking the defensive zone.

Don't know if you saw the WJC recently but the European primary goalie skills were great but the other skills were very weak. Creating countless pointless defensive zone faceoffs, missing transition chances, etc.

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01-21-2013, 05:58 PM
  #98
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I don't mean to be so frank, but I've been around youth hockey a bit and it's really "garbage in, garbage out" - you see it start to creep into the craniums of those watching, I saw a thread on the main board not long ago, "what's up with Canada's goaltending" or something to that effect. The answer is: they're doing it wrong. Goaltending wasn't intended to be guess work.

It's almost seems like stats got involved in development one day..."ok, we just need to find a way to stop 9 out of 10 shots" - it's effective but it has no upside. Like C1958 said, it's the lowest common denominator, it produces cookie cutter goaltenders and it's confusing the people that aren't paying close enough attention to the game itself. Look at the "Top 10 Goalies" threads that pop up every 3 months on the main board, every time there's a different top-5, not just order, different names...it's not like it was even in the 90's where there was clear(er) tiers. I just wish I was old enough to have seen the evolution of the position and understood how it came to be this way. It's hard to grasp when I just start watching a game from the 70's or whatever, there's no context to what I'm watching. People confuse it with "bad" because it's not butterfly and it doesn't look "normal" and I know that's not the right answer. It's difficult because I don't think there's been such an evolution in any position since, say, 1980 like the position of goaltender. I wasn't around in the 70's and prior to properly and fully understand what happened and why...

It's weird, I dislike the butterfly, but I think what, say, Tim Thomas does is wrong. I think that's too inconsistent to be proper (as per the crucial goals he surrenders). So I clamor for a non-butterfly goalie and I get one, but I don't like him. God, does that make me a bad person?

I have a list of goalies in my head that I think their talent level is cut above...I call them "butterfly plus" (when appropriate) because they aren't like a Giguere - where it's nothing, no glove, no blocker, no lateral movement, no stickhandling, no reflexes, no rebound control, just a shooter tutor...Carey Price, Marc-Andre Fleury come immediately to mind. Both have more to them then "drop and hope".

What I really like is Martin Brodeur's style. Half stand-up, hybrid style. Great attention to detail, equipment to protect the body from injury (as opposed to equipment designed to protect the net from puck marks used by most), extreme anticipation skills - maybe the best ever, but no one seems to be able to match it. Not even his own son could figure it out.

C1958 - Fair to say that the teachings of Vladislav Tretiak and the late Warren Strelow were instrumental in shaping some of the finest goalies we've seen in recent times? Brodeur, Belfour, Kiprusoff, Nabokov come to mind. Adaptable to different situations, all of them. Unlike some of the Allaire guys that tend to flame out when the situations aren't just right.

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01-21-2013, 06:21 PM
  #99
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I don't mean to be so frank, but I've been around youth hockey a bit and it's really "garbage in, garbage out" - you see it start to creep into the craniums of those watching, I saw a thread on the main board not long ago, "what's up with Canada's goaltending" or something to that effect. The answer is: they're doing it wrong. Goaltending wasn't intended to be guess work.

It's almost seems like stats got involved in development one day..."ok, we just need to find a way to stop 9 out of 10 shots" - it's effective but it has no upside. Like C1958 said, it's the lowest common denominator, it produces cookie cutter goaltenders and it's confusing the people that aren't paying close enough attention to the game itself. Look at the "Top 10 Goalies" threads that pop up every 3 months on the main board, every time there's a different top-5, not just order, different names...it's not like it was even in the 90's where there was clear(er) tiers. I just wish I was old enough to have seen the evolution of the position and understood how it came to be this way. It's hard to grasp when I just start watching a game from the 70's or whatever, there's no context to what I'm watching. People confuse it with "bad" because it's not butterfly and it doesn't look "normal" and I know that's not the right answer. It's difficult because I don't think there's been such an evolution in any position since, say, 1980 like the position of goaltender. I wasn't around in the 70's and prior to properly and fully understand what happened and why...

It's weird, I dislike the butterfly, but I think what, say, Tim Thomas does is wrong. I think that's too inconsistent to be proper (as per the crucial goals he surrenders). So I clamor for a non-butterfly goalie and I get one, but I don't like him. God, does that make me a bad person?

I have a list of goalies in my head that I think their talent level is cut above...I call them "butterfly plus" (when appropriate) because they aren't like a Giguere - where it's nothing, no glove, no blocker, no lateral movement, no stickhandling, no reflexes, no rebound control, just a shooter tutor...Carey Price, Marc-Andre Fleury come immediately to mind. Both have more to them then "drop and hope".

What I really like is Martin Brodeur's style. Half stand-up, hybrid style. Great attention to detail, equipment to protect the body from injury (as opposed to equipment designed to protect the net from puck marks used by most), extreme anticipation skills - maybe the best ever, but no one seems to be able to match it. Not even his own son could figure it out.

C1958 - Fair to say that the teachings of Vladislav Tretiak and the late Warren Strelow were instrumental in shaping some of the finest goalies we've seen in recent times? Brodeur, Belfour, Kiprusoff, Nabokov come to mind. Adaptable to different situations, all of them. Unlike some of the Allaire guys that tend to flame out when the situations aren't just right.
I don't quite understand this statement.

Are you saying Thomas gives up crucial goals because of his style?

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01-21-2013, 06:56 PM
  #100
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Originally Posted by Mike Farkas View Post
It's almost seems like stats got involved in development one day..."ok, we just need to find a way to stop 9 out of 10 shots" - it's effective but it has no upside. Like C1958 said, it's the lowest common denominator, it produces cookie cutter goaltenders... I just wish I was old enough to have seen the evolution of the position and understood how it came to be this way. It's hard to grasp when I just start watching a game from the 70's or whatever, there's no context to what I'm watching....
Well, perhaps I can help, as I came up playing through all 3 styles, Floppers, Stand-Up & Butterfly, whereby elements of all 3, based on the individuals strengths were taught, employed. I had 3 major Goalie Coaches as a kid, the first being Ed Chadwick, who despite his size, was absolutely a Flopper as a player, though as a Coach also a student of the position who understood & could convey/teach elements of Stand-Up & the Butterfly. He'd of course played in an earlier era (pre-slapshot) & was still playing when I knew him (albeit in the minors & Sr. by that time). So as his pupil, you'd take the best of his Flopper game along with elements of Stand-Up & BF. He'd studied Hall, youd be remiss & foolish not to have done so, borrowed from him (which we did, but only on dekes, scrambles in front when youd lost site of the puck, making yourself "big" because you didnt know where the shot was coming from if at all)..

Chadwicks instructions were followed by Plante, the man himself, who by this time had fully developed the Stand Up, playing the angles, economy of motion to a fine art & science. Again, as the student, youd take parts of his teachings & game, reject others that didnt work for you as an individual in-play, be it due to size & or physiological constraints, perhaps difference from a psychological perspective or whatever. Youd simply take bits & pieces from the Flopper to Stand Up to Halls' Butterfly, make them your own, unique, similar but "different". Jim Rutherford was another Coach, who only through force of will & hardwork ever made to the NHL. He'd been taught by Bower & others, those reservoirs of knowledge opened to another generation through Lil' Jimmy & so on. A couple of other Coaches as well, former Minor Pro players from the 40's & 50's who wouldve learned from the guys who played in the teens, 20's & 30's & so on.

Now, before I go on, its important to put the manner in which the game was being played at that time into perspective, which was basically "Laneway Hockey". Defenceman didnt join the rush or lead it much, Wingers played their Wings up & down rarely venturing beyond maybe 15' out from the boards. Think of a tabletop hockey board. Your Defence can only be moved to the opposing sides Blue Line on a straight groove, your Forwards also on straight lanes with an arc into the left or right corner, your Centre stopping in front of the net in between the faceoff circle hashmarks. No East-West or lateral movement allowed. With Orr's arrival coinciding with rapid over-expansion, the WHA, then the 72 Summit Series, the way the game was played over the next decade of the 70's had changed forever, goaltending playing catchup until really the mid to late 80's but through the late 60's to about 87 you could move your Goalie not only East West but now so too North South, playing the angles.

By the mid to late 80's, that tabletop hockey board now featured grooves for the forwards & defenceman to play all over the surface in constant cycles, and if you wanted to beat them, Left Wing Lock & Neutral Zone Traps the only way to do so, which in combination with the composite sticks (everyone now has a deadly shot, not everyone accurate but none the less, deadly), the game played in cycles by bigger, faster & stronger players, absolutely no way you could play Stand Up exclusively with elements of Flopper & BF included in your tool box. Kirk McClean was probably the last of that kind, though guys like Brodeur & to a lesser extent Thomas & Smith in Phoenix do employ elements of it when required. On the whole however, Goaltenders are taught to "block" as opposed to "save", size critical, and were back to the future, Ed Chadwicks era & earlier, whereby the goalie on your tabletop hockey board no longer is capable of moving out, North South. They still love it, enjoy it & playing the position just as much if not more in some cases than those who came earlier, but that "old bag of tricks", long gone.


Last edited by Killion: 01-21-2013 at 07:04 PM.
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