Just saying. Doesn't make the way appear that much tougher. I think the perception of the Bundesliga isn't all that accurate over the last few years, in that regard.
Come on, it's obvious that it's tougher to beat United, City, Chelsea, Arsenal, Liverpool, Tottenham, etc... to win the league.
Heck, using your kind of stat, I'm sure Ligue 1 must be one of the hardest league to win.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vipers31
That's where people disagree. Everyone has their principles. Guardiola certainly has some, too.
People get that heart-warming feeling like it's actually smelling good when they worked hard to earn it. It doesn't have any smell, whatsoever, when it's just dumped on you.
They earned their situation. That's what makes it simple. Chelsea didn't. City didn't. PSG didn't. You can try to rationalize that all you want. If you don't see that difference, I'm not going to be able to open your eyes on that. But don't believe it doesn't mean anything, when it does to most people.
Bayern didn't start up as a money-and-success-making perpetuum mobile. When the Bundesliga was installed, they had to start from the 2nd league. It didn't just fall into their laps. And making money of winning isn't as easy as you make it sound there. There just aren't many examples of teams being able to pull this off the way they did.
You mix two things here :
I'm not disputing it's better to earn your money than money being given to you.
Everyone here in France would agree it's better to see Lyon rise financially to dominance because it was well run than PSG and Monaco having a sugar daddy.
BUT, in the end, it's the SAME for other clubs.
Lyon bought every good player on other french teams when it was financially dominant. For other teams, it's all the same. They get unstabilized by that big money team.
Bayern also has a history of signing or trying to sign the better players from other german teams.
I've personally always hated the impact of money in football, and that's why I'm usually rooting for the poorest team. But all in all, when you see Bayern dismantling another german team and then PSG, Chelsea or City dismantling another team in their league, it all comes down to money anyway.
Makes zero sense to me.
Why go to a perennial BL winner and CL contender?
If he wanted the money he would have signed with City.
If he wanted a CL contender, he would have signed with Chelsea or United.
If he wanted a challenge he would have signed with PSG.
He took the easy route here (great chance to win the league, decent chance to win the CL). With only Dortmund to beat to win the league. And it's not like any football fan would support Bayern over Dortmund. Bayern deserves its nickname : FC Hollywood. They're really the Real Madrid of Bundesliga.
I don't understand that choice.
Oh good Lord.
PSG a challenge? Compared to Bayern? OK. I agree Bayern isn't a big challenge, but PSG is very quickly becoming less of a challenge than Bayern will be. I wouldn't be surprised to see Mourinho take the "challenge" of PSG.
While there are similarities to Madrid, they're not the same and to call them the Madrid of the Bundesliga is a stretch. And I agree that they're FC Hollywood, but compared to Madrid they're FC Anaheim.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cin
Couldn't have sait it better myself. Why take another easy route? Then again, it's what he wants so no harm done. Whatever makes ya happy.
"Another easy route?" Which was his first?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Evilo
Right now, yeah no doubt, but very soon, nope.
And yes obviously, PSG will outspend Bayern. Heck, they've outspent everyone since the qataris took over.
You can mastrubate all you want over Bayern and call others ignorant, but facts are :
1- EPL is still a superior league. And a MUCH harder league to win than the BL with Bayern.
2- Yes Real and Bayern are very similar : poach good players out of other teams, constant Hollywood surrounding, officials that can't shut up and talk about everyone and everything.
And Munich is a better city to live in than Paris, Rome or London?
I like Munich, but stop embarassing yourself here.
And yes Chelsea beating Bayern in the CL final sure proves that Bayern is not "a superior team' than Chelsea.
So winning with PSG is buying the title, but winning with Bayern isn't?
OK....
Yeah, and they also have a very good youth setup and have been bringing up some good players recently who actually get a chance in the first team and help form the backbone of the team. Like I said, some similarities but not as similar as you're making them out to be.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Evilo
Again, it disappoints me big time than he chooses a team like Bayern.
Regardless of the fact that I don't like Bayern, I expected him to sign with an EPL team to prove himself at the highest league level (or other high league with La Liga) and in any case the most competitive in terms of big teams.
Instead, he chose the easy way. What will he have in Munich that he didn't have in Barcelona? Nothing. It's a poor man's Barca.
I expect him to pick an EPL team to live up to the challenge of beating the best or perhaps pick an up and coming team (PSG) to build a team from head to toe.
Disappointing.
Like PSG, right? LMAO!
Exactly which PL team did you expect him to choose that he would "prove himself" with? Anyway, you clearly don't understand Guardiola at all. Despite the management at Bayern as you've correctly noted, there's a big difference between them and PSG, City or Chelsea. They're run by "football men" if you will and while I'll give City that to an extent, the rest all have the outsiders backing the club financially. While as you say, money is money, there's still who is pulling the purse strings. Of course there's the fact that there are plenty of other reasons why Pep chose Bayern if you know something about Pep and follow the right sources.
And for the record he doesn't need to prove himself since he's clearly already done so.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cin
I don't think Cesc is on the bench right now either, so could be.
edit - Never mind, Cesc is playing.
And having an excellent season so far. Tito's got him in the midifield and Iniesta out wide (though in a free role sort of way).
PSG a challenge? Compared to Bayern? OK. I agree Bayern isn't a big challenge, but PSG is very quickly becoming less of a challenge than Bayern will be. I wouldn't be surprised to see Mourinho take the "challenge" of PSG.
It's a challenge to start a team from scratch.
Obviously, it's still not a challenge as would be taking a poor team to success, but it's still more than the "challenge" of taking a team that was CL finalist twice in 3 years to glory.
I don't think Mourinho comes to Paris. His ego is too big for Ligue 1.
Quote:
Originally Posted by les Habs
Like PSG, right? LMAO!
Well yeah as I said, I expected him to sign in England and if not, take a team and make it his own, and that's possible with a team that could be built from scratch. But anyway, the mere presence of Ibrahimovic was a big no.
Quote:
Originally Posted by les Habs
Exactly which PL team did you expect him to choose that he would "prove himself" with? Anyway, you clearly don't understand Guardiola at all. Despite the management at Bayern as you've correctly noted, there's a big difference between them and PSG, City or Chelsea. They're run by "football men" if you will and while I'll give City that to an extent, the rest all have the outsiders backing the club financially. While as you say, money is money, there's still who is pulling the purse strings. Of course there's the fact that there are plenty of other reasons why Pep chose Bayern if you know something about Pep and follow the right sources.
If you actually knew something about other teams you wouldn't dismiss them like that either. You make an exception for City just because they signed former Barca guys and I find it humorous.
There are plenty of extremely good football guys among the Chelsea staff too.
And there are also excellent guys in PSG front office. Leonardo knows a thing or two about football, and he's well surrounded. El Khalaifi is extremely intelligent, patient, and he knows a thing or two about pro sport, since he was a professionnal athlete himself.
Read a thing or two about him, and you'll be surprised.
In fact I'd say the way they spent their money has so far been extremely intelligent. They only made one or two mistakes in terms of players (Lugano), other than that, they got very good players, some young ones that flourished under the spotlight (Matuidi, Verrati), made some good decisions, though of course, the coach decision was extremely arguable, though expected.
Quote:
Originally Posted by les Habs
And for the record he doesn't need to prove himself since he's clearly already done so.
Sure, but he does need to prove himself in another environment.
He took the best team available and made them reach new heights.
That's extremely impressive, but I (and I'm sure others) would have liked to see him do well with a lesser team in another environment.
Which is why any football fan outside Bayern fans should be disappointed that such a great coach doesn't test himself on the biggest possible stage.
Ok! And we'll throw in the nails for Wenger's coffin (figuratively speaking of course), because that would be game over for him and the Gunners.
I think there are lots of players that could leave Real before Benzema.
And that includes Ronaldo, Higuain and Di Maria.
Higuain is IMO a much better guess.
Jovetic is indeed a very good guess and I'll throw other names : Lisandro Lopez, Bafe Gomis, Michel Bastos, Isco (as been said), Gourcuff, Mbiwa, Sakho, Nkoulou, Schurrle, Ter Stegen, Mandanda, Capoue, etc...
Of course, I don't think all those guys are worth 30M£, but there's a decent chance Arsenal can throw money at them. Most are probably available for the right price.
I've personally always hated the impact of money in football, and that's why I'm usually rooting for the poorest team. But all in all, when you see Bayern dismantling another german team and then PSG, Chelsea or City dismantling another team in their league, it all comes down to money anyway.
Exactly.
I feel kinda indifferent to the Pep news but it has always been my opinion that everything that helps Bayern to further their dominance of the Bundesliga is bad for the Bundesliga.
Him joining Hamburg or even Schalke would have been a great thing for the Bundesliga, this doesn't change the current situation sadly.
I think the "rumor" is pretty obviously about Cavani given Wenger's comments yesterday. I'd say our chances of landing him are about as real as Manti Te'o's girlfriend and this is just more gibberish so that Wenger and the board can tell fans they "tried".
I think the "rumor" is pretty obviously about Cavani given Wenger's comments yesterday. I'd say our chances of landing him are about as real as Manti Te'o's girlfriend and this is just more gibberish so that Wenger and the board can tell fans they "tried".
I think Wenger is just blowing smoke out of his ass and isn't serious about landing anyone. He's basically opening a door so he can say his famous quote "We want talent but we couldn't get the proper deal done for reasons x, y, z"
Usually he denies anything and everything, as if he was working for the CIA, and now he's openly confirming that he's tracking Cavani?
Wake me up when we'll actually land, and not sale, someone of talent.
Except Bayern haven't been pilfering the league to form their current success, it ms been primarily their own youths, some foreign stars and a couple BL guys brought in. This isn't united going after RVP to take a rival's star away, or the English big teams signing every young British player to park on their bench.
I feel kinda indifferent to the Pep news but it has always been my opinion that everything that helps Bayern to further their dominance of the Bundesliga is bad for the Bundesliga.
We don't know if that's what it is going to do. Actually, looking at things right now, it will be very hard for him to increase Bayern's dominance from this year. I agree with your general point, that the competition - including and especially at the top - is huge for the league. I don't think the current rise happens by chance, and the increased competition for the Bundesliga helped the level a lot.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JVR
Him joining Hamburg or even Schalke would have been a great thing for the Bundesliga, this doesn't change the current situation sadly.
I soooo disagree with that. Him joining a team like that isn't an option, obviously. But you bet that players in the big leagues and those on their way there took notice. You bet there'll be a lot of people watching their first Bundesliga match next year (or first in ages), even if it's only the BVB-FCB. It helps the spotlight on the league. Today, there's newspapers in a boatload of countries explaining their readers Guardiola decided to move to a great up and coming league, with fantastic talent, great stadiums, fans, and so on. There's quotes from all kinds of star players mentioning these things. I don't think I'd even be bold in saying that this already has changed the situation, and helped the Bundesliga.
The attraction of the league doesn't spike when a guy, say, on Hamburg's level or even a good tad higher transfers to Hamburg. That doesn't have much of an impact. Some will talk about a somewhat uncommon destination, but that's really reserved to those already converted. When a guy like Guardiola picks that league, that has everyone talking. Players in Spain sure as hell take notice. So do talents. A Spaniard taking a job in Germany is front-page material in England, so everyone there's getting lectures from commentators about how it makes sense (because that's about every article I've read from England), given the state of German football. This already has made the Bundesliga a little more attractive to players. It already has put a seed in a few kids' heads about phantasizing of playing for Pep, with Ribery, or whoever - in Germany. (Obviously not your average Spanish kid, but we all knew the odd ones that would always go with foreign teams. I think most of us were those for a stretch, maybe. ) I'd be shocked if this didn't help the league, made players look at Bundesliga teams as destinations that they wouldn't have thought about much before. Maybe bring up to their agent that actually, that German league didn't seem too bad, either.
You couldn't buy better advertisement. And while our last TV deal was signed relatively shortly ago IIRC, one could already bet that this will increase the value of the next one, simply for international broadcasts. I'm pretty sure that when you see the reactions among other German officials, they are happy for the league because they are as convinced that I am that this can be massive for the league.
I just seriously hope that people who might watch the Bundesliga for the first time next year (though I have trouble imagining watching a league because of a manager) don't view it as a two-team league like the general perception of la Liga. I guess it's up to teams like Leverkusen, Schalke etc. to make noise in the CL to prevent that, but even spain's total dominance in the EL hasn't prevented the 5 or so teams behind Barcelona and Real to be underrated because they can't compete nationally (at least in the last several years).
I soooo disagree with that. Him joining a team like that isn't an option, obviously. But you bet that players in the big leagues and those on their way there took notice. You bet there'll be a lot of people watching their first Bundesliga match next year (or first in ages), even if it's only the BVB-FCB. It helps the spotlight on the league. Today, there's newspapers in a boatload of countries explaining their readers Guardiola decided to move to a great up and coming league, with fantastic talent, great stadiums, fans, and so on. There's quotes from all kinds of star players mentioning these things. I don't think I'd even be bold in saying that this already has changed the situation, and helped the Bundesliga.
The attraction of the league doesn't spike when a guy, say, on Hamburg's level or even a good tad higher transfers to Hamburg. That doesn't have much of an impact. Some will talk about a somewhat uncommon destination, but that's really reserved to those already converted. When a guy like Guardiola picks that league, that has everyone talking. Players in Spain sure as hell take notice. So do talents. A Spaniard taking a job in Germany is front-page material in England, so everyone there's getting lectures from commentators about how it makes sense (because that's about every article I've read from England), given the state of German football. This already has made the Bundesliga a little more attractive to players. It already has put a seed in a few kids' heads about phantasizing of playing for Pep, with Ribery, or whoever - in Germany. (Obviously not your average Spanish kid, but we all knew the odd ones that would always go with foreign teams. I think most of us were those for a stretch, maybe. ) I'd be shocked if this didn't help the league, made players look at Bundesliga teams as destinations that they wouldn't have thought about much before. Maybe bring up to their agent that actually, that German league didn't seem too bad, either.
You couldn't buy better advertisement. And while our last TV deal was signed relatively shortly ago IIRC, one could already bet that this will increase the value of the next one, simply for international broadcasts. I'm pretty sure that when you see the reactions among other German officials, they are happy for the league because they are as convinced that I am that this can be massive for the league.
Almost everything you said above about improving the league would be equally valid if Pep was going to a smaller club like Hamburg. The fact that Pep is Pep is what is bringing the majority of the media spotlight here. I'll admit that him going to Munich magnifies things a little, but had he gone to Hamburg, there would have been probably an equal amount of stories about him wanting to build a club up, etc. Him coaching anywhere in the Germany is going to draw Spanish players and media attention, and attract new viewers.
On top of that, had he gone to a club like Hamburg, one would think that would help to increase parity (not that it really needs to be increased as you've pointed out), which I believe is the point JVR was trying to make.
All of that said, I completely understand his choice. With how this year is going though, it's looking like he'll have pretty big shoes to fill, at least in the short term.
(...) (though I have trouble imagining watching a league because of a manager) (...)
Sure, when they make the call, that's not going to be their cognitive reasoning. But they are getting blasted with information about the quality of the Bundesliga right now everywhere in the wake of the Guardiola signing (an interesting summary on it here). That's going leave a tiny mark in some of the brains, and then some of those will turn on a game sometime.
Uh... Barca. I'm a big fan of the team, but let's be honest here. Their youth system, coupled with the fact that Messi, Iniesta, Xavi, and Puyol are all literally on the same page all the time. It's a much easier task than winning with a team like Valencia, Sevilla, Betis, Chelsea, Bremen, or Marseille.
Yes, he absolutely revolutionized a style of play, but it certainly helps when you've got a team like Barca to do it with.
I for one hope he chooses to keep the same style Bayern play now, only incorporate different things into it. Not another 4-3-3 possession based dominance. I can't wait to see him and Klopp play chess, plus I'm a HUGE Dortmund fan.
I just seriously hope that people who might watch the Bundesliga for the first time next year (though I have trouble imagining watching a league because of a manager) don't view it as a two-team league like the general perception of la Liga. I guess it's up to teams like Leverkusen, Schalke etc. to make noise in the CL to prevent that, but even spain's total dominance in the EL hasn't prevented the 5 or so teams behind Barcelona and Real to be underrated because they can't compete nationally (at least in the last several years).
I think the league is very friendly on the eyes of new viewers. Even watching the two worst teams in the league is a fun match to watch. The fans in the Bundesliga make fans in all the other leagues look like high school football game crowds. The German product is immaculate, and bringing in Pep will hopefully bring in a tonnnnnn of more fans, and players
Almost everything you said above about improving the league would be equally valid if Pep was going to a smaller club like Hamburg. The fact that Pep is Pep is what is bringing the majority of the media spotlight here. I'll admit that him going to Munich magnifies things a little, but had he gone to Hamburg, there would have been probably an equal amount of stories about him wanting to build a club up, etc. Him coaching anywhere in the Germany is going to draw Spanish players and media attention, and attract new viewers.
On top of that, had he gone to a club like Hamburg, one would think that would help to increase parity (not that it really needs to be increased as you've pointed out), which I believe is the point JVR was trying to make.
Oh, I didn't mean to say the effect wouldn't be there with a different team. That wasn't my intention, at all. I thought about saying before that that would even be better, due to the very "improved parity" aspect you mention, but I also think such a weird move to a midtable team in Germany would be considered so immensely absurd by the foreign media, that they might just conclude he had gone mad, and the focus wouldn't have been on it being a reasonable decision based on the developments in German football. But other than that, I'm certainly with you. For the effect to be positive for the league, it absolutely didn't have to be Bayern. But it obviously was the only remotely viable option on many levels, and even in this way, I'm sure the league will profit from it, in regard to JVR questioning that.
Uh... Barca. I'm a big fan of the team, but let's be honest here. Their youth system, coupled with the fact that Messi, Iniesta, Xavi, and Puyol are all literally on the same page all the time. It's a much easier task than winning with a team like Valencia, Sevilla, Betis, Chelsea, Bremen, or Marseille.
I'm a bit split on that, for two reasons:
1) Yes, winning with a team like those mentioned certainly is a whole lot tougher, no question about it. But then again, is taking even a very good team like pre-Pep Barca to being a generational era actually easier, than taking one of those lower-tier teams to a single stunning win? The latter happens every once in awhile, and the coaches receive great credit, but they don't nearly always follow up.
2) Pre-Pep Barca can't really be reduced to the names it already consisted of, I think. Sure, there were guys like Iniesta and especially Xavi already there, but both were sitting on the bench in their CL knockout (no idea if I remember that correctly) before Pep took over. Iniesta probably was still rather young and maybe not physically there, but especially Xavi simply wasn't the player he became lateron, although his age wouldn't have held him back. Those are things where credit is deserved for Pep. And the fact that his team kept playing this strong after his departure I cannot see as anything but an illustration of the systems he helped building up there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cin
I for one hope he chooses to keep the same style Bayern play now, only incorporate different things into it. Not another 4-3-3 possession based dominance.
Yeah, same here. And I don't think he'll come in there, tear everything down and start from scratch trying to emulate Barca. The formation may change, but I don't think we'll see Bayern's play of this season get lost entirely. That would likely not be a good sign.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cin
I can't wait to see him and Klopp play chess, plus I'm a HUGE Dortmund fan.
Yeah, that's an exciting vision. While reading some English boards last night, I saw quite a few people salivating over watching "Pep vs Klopp" next year in the Bundesliga. It was new to see people elsewhere excited over BVB vs FCB again last year, and I really can't recall ever hearing foreign fans look forward to a game in Germany because of the consensual respect for the coaches. Can't lie, that made me smile.
Uh... Barca. I'm a big fan of the team, but let's be honest here. Their youth system, coupled with the fact that Messi, Iniesta, Xavi, and Puyol are all literally on the same page all the time. It's a much easier task than winning with a team like Valencia, Sevilla, Betis, Chelsea, Bremen, or Marseille.
Yes, he absolutely revolutionized a style of play, but it certainly helps when you've got a team like Barca to do it with.
I for one hope he chooses to keep the same style Bayern play now, only incorporate different things into it. Not another 4-3-3 possession based dominance. I can't wait to see him and Klopp play chess, plus I'm a HUGE Dortmund fan.
So yeah, he kind of chose an easy route.
If it was so easy why did they finish ten points behind Villareal and eighteen points off Madrid the year before he took over, to finishing twenty points better than the last year and winning the treble in his first year? And then going on to win 14 out of 19 trophies possible against a Madrid who brought in two players who recently won the balloon d'or and spent 250 million euros in one summer surely couldn't have been easy. Does he really need to make Wigan a powerhouse to prove himself?
Why would playing for Australia make it easier in getting a work permit for the UK?
Playing for any national team will make it easier to get a work permit to play in the UK. If you haven't played for your national team, it becomes harder to get the permit, as I understand it.
Him joining a team like that isn't an option, obviously. But you bet that players in the big leagues and those on their way there took notice. You bet there'll be a lot of people watching their first Bundesliga match next year (or first in ages), even if it's only the BVB-FCB. It helps the spotlight on the league. Today, there's newspapers in a boatload of countries explaining their readers Guardiola decided to move to a great up and coming league, with fantastic talent, great stadiums, fans, and so on. There's quotes from all kinds of star players mentioning these things. I don't think I'd even be bold in saying that this already has changed the situation, and helped the Bundesliga. 
) I'd be shocked if this didn't help the league, made players look at Bundesliga teams as destinations that they wouldn't have thought about much before. Maybe bring up to their agent that actually, that German league didn't seem too bad, either.
