Hmph, I was just joshin', but yeah, I didn't even notice that Chabot got those two...curious. I'm a tiny bit surprised Lundqvist didn't get more top votes...and I'm kind of surprised too that Rogie Vachon got some love enough though he wasn't really examined under a microscope...I was going to have him higher, but was a little unsure of myself...I put him, backspace...put him in, backspace...I think I goofed on it and did him a disservice...most everyone else got it right though, so that's good...I overthought it...
I would have been looking forward to discussing Seth Martin and Paddy Moran. Oh well. Edit: Jiri Kralik and Pekka Lindmark too. As I said before, oh well.
Although 2012 may have been the last time it happens, it's nice to see some strong goalies perhaps undeservedly slip to the MLD where they can have more impact than as backups in the ATD.
Hmph, I was just joshin', but yeah, I didn't even notice that Chabot got those two...curious. I'm a tiny bit surprised Lundqvist didn't get more top votes...and I'm kind of surprised too that Rogie Vachon got some love enough though he wasn't really examined under a microscope...I was going to have him higher, but was a little unsure of myself...I put him, backspace...put him in, backspace...I think I goofed on it and did him a disservice...most everyone else got it right though, so that's good...I overthought it...
I had Vachon either 5th or 6th (can't remember how I ended up ranking him and Connell), but either way I don't think I did him a disservice. That said, I certainly don't mind him getting in, and Giacomin and Vachon going back to back seems fitting in a way.
pretty satisfying. My 1-4 ended up 2-5, and my #5 was 1st.
Chabot was the strangest case here. No one really talked about him much. Certainly no one made any kind of a case for him. But three people felt the need to give him a top-2 vote (5th-most this round) and he had the 4th-most 1st place votes. Thanks to this, he finished a remarkable 15 points ahead of John Ross Roach, despite Roach being ranked higher on more ballots (9-8 on the 17 ballots that had one or the other or both ranked)
Wow, ,the Connell-Lundqvist-Thomas trio finished 1-2-3 as expected but in the reverse order of last time. The top 4 were actually my top 4, but not in that order.
Glad to see a solid divide between #40 and #41. God knows, I would have hated to see a small gap and subsequently feel guilty about one of the goaltenders not making the list because of me!
Glad to see a solid divide between #40 and #41. God knows, I would have hated to see a small gap and subsequently feel guilty about one of the goaltenders not making the list because of me!
Definitely agree. I was fairly confident about my top 3, and 5 of my "not top 8s." But 4-10 was a mess for me and I'm glad I didn't singlehandedly causing any of them to miss it.
It's tough to gauge really when you turn off some voters and when you're challenging them...I backed way off (compared to what I maybe could have done) regarding guys like Thomas and Connell because I thought if I pressed too hard some might select them out of spite for the hate parade...in a way, that's what helped Lundqvist a little bit I think - at least it got the ball rolling on him. Someone took exception to an unnecessary jab at him and it started half-a-thread's worth of research on him that helped in some small part to getting him on the list...
I'm a tiny bit surprised at the distance between Connell and Roach...I'm not sure why they are separated by as much as they are...it seems like a numbers grab at first look, but maybe I missed something...I know I didn't do enough for Roach due to time constraints though...
Little bit surprised by the love John Chabot got considering he was a center through most of his career...
Vernon gets three votes in the top-3 which is a noodle scratcher to say the least...why don't arguments get brought up that support these players from these voters? At all, even a hint of one, just so other people can evaluate it...Vernon getting some secret ballot votes doesn't do anything for the project really, it just confuses...
Cheevers the only NHL-era HHOFer to not make the list, is that right? I'm trying to think of the other HHOFers that didn't place: Paddy Moran, Riley Hern and John Bouse Hutton come to mind...others?
Perhaps after this season, Tuukka Rask or Jonathan Quick will slot in at 35...
Vernon gets three votes in the top-3 which is a noodle scratcher to say the least...why don't arguments get brought up that support these players from these voters? At all, even a hint of one, just so other people can evaluate it...Vernon getting some secret ballot votes doesn't do anything for the project really, it just confuses...
I agree 100%. None of us are known names in the hockey world (well, I guess TCG and Dr. No are in more limited circles), so the credibility of our list really depends on the quality of the discussion. And if a goalie had gotten added to the list without even being discussed, the project's credibility would really take a hit in my opinion. Luckily that didn't happen. But I do wish that voters who voted for Chabot or Vernon at least gave a little bit of reasoning in the thread.
Anyway, the full voting results of all participants will be released over the next couple of weeks.
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Cheevers the only NHL-era HHOFer to not make the list, is that right? I'm trying to think of the other HHOFers that didn't place: Paddy Moran, Riley Hern and John Bouse Hutton come to mind...others?
Yup. Cheevers, Moran, Hern, and Hutton are the only Hockey Hall of Fame goaltenders not to be included.
It's tough to gauge really when you turn off some voters and when you're challenging them...I backed way off (compared to what I maybe could have done) regarding guys like Thomas and Connell because I thought if I pressed too hard some might select them out of spite for the hate parade...in a way, that's what helped Lundqvist a little bit I think - at least it got the ball rolling on him. Someone took exception to an unnecessary jab at him and it started half-a-thread's worth of research on him that helped in some small part to getting him on the list...
I guess time will tell in regards to Thomas. We'll probably have a better sense of him with some distance to reflect on his career. Assuming it's over.
I think you did a good job opening the door on a Connell/Roach comparison that could play out through the ATD and future iterations of top-X goalie lists. Personally I went with Connell largely because I just didn't see a smoking gun in favor of Roach... but there was some smoke there. More than anything, we just need clearer research on that era.
Agreed about the Vernon and Chabot votes. I'd really like to have at least some sense of why they might deserve top-3 votes.
It's funny, tarheel, I didn't see the smoking gun for Connell...which isn't a knock on anyone in particular for voting him or whatever, even I put him in my top-8 but it was more of a guess than anything...it's low-hanging fruit, him and Thomas both really...
As we see how goaltending has changed and what the numbers mean and how it all works, we won't be so quick to throw a two-hit wonder into the upper reaches of goaltending history...there were plenty of goalies that could actually hack it in the NHL for most of their careers that would have been better, but like you said, time will tell...and it will tell...it won't just suggest...
So I went 4 for 4 on naming HHOF goalies that didn't rank, place or show at 7:30 in the morning? Yikes. Probably 18 months ago, I hadn't heard of three of those guys...I must be spending too much time here...
Little victories: no Osgood, no Giguere, no Cechmanek...
Not to take anything away from people who devote their time to this project, but I wonder how Vernon and Richter ended up with #1 and #2 votes when they both weren't even discussed or any argument made for them.
I think each voter should be at least require to present some argument for his order, not just ignore all discussion and never post anything (I guess those ballots were cast by people who didn't contribute). Similar happened when Billy Smith ended up 1st in some round, everybody was suprised how it happned and yet nobody exposed that he voted for him.
I feel if someone doesn't contributed anything valuable to the project he just distortes the final result.
Most voters devote hours to dig out stats, articles and opinions, write pages of arguments. Just casting a vote for something that is the complete opposite of the information presented puts all the work down the tubes and is outrageous to be honest.
It's perfectly fine to have different opinions, but at least have reasons why you vote the way you do.
Thank goodness Cheevers and Liut vaulted over Chabot.
you wrote John Chabot btw :p
from wiki
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In The Hockey News Collector's Edition "The Top 100 Players of All-Time" (October 2010) Lorne Chabot was rated as the 20th best goaltender. He is the only eligible goalie in the top 20 not inducted into the Hockey Hall of Fame, according to The Hockey News.
... In 1998, he was ranked number 84 on The Hockey News' list of the 100 Greatest Hockey Players. He was the only player on the list then eligible for the Hockey Hall of Fame who has not been elected to it.
