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Old
01-17-2013, 01:27 PM
  #901
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Originally Posted by CrAzYNiNe View Post
So Subban boarded a flight to Hawaii for vacation?
News just in -- appointed to Obama's cabinet following criticism of lack of racial diversity. Fake American birth certificate to be printed in Hawaii. (Although I'm not sure you need to be American to only be a part of the cabinet. He would troll republicans hard!)

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01-17-2013, 01:35 PM
  #902
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Originally Posted by PricePkPatch View Post
You poor dumb *******.

The contract Patch just signed is his 3rd contract. His bridge contract was 1.75M$/y, for 2 years. When he signed that bridge contract, he hadn't proved anything beyond one half season, and he just came back from a broken neck.

The contract Carey Price just signed is his 3rd contract. His bridge contract was 2.75M/y, for 2 years, When he signed that bridge contract, he hadn't proven much. He had been upstaged by Halak for a whole year and did not play in the playoffs.

Both now have signed their 3rd contract after proving themselves.

PK Subban is signing his 2nd contract now. He is in a much, much, much, much better position than Patch or Price both were when they signed their respective 2nd contract. Unless you don't understand what a ****ing "bridge contract" is and you actually think the recent signings with 67 and 31 are those.
First of all...you're unnecessarily getting vitriolic within our own board. Try to avoid that, I'm not into name calling and youtube-worthy comments.

You are correct about both your Patches and Price contracts in their situation and number of contracts.

The point here is that PK is at a point where his second contract (as you stated) could be worth more than Price's or Patches' were (you saw the figures I floated, right?). I'm fine with HIS bridge contract being more like a 3rd contract in terms of actual money, although you are still giving PK a little too much credit in terms of proving himself. I think he's a boss, but you need to put in a little more time to deserve what he's allegedly asking. The issue here is that the Habs are willing to make this "bridge" contract worth more (but not exorbitant), but for a longer term (to ensure it goes past his UFA situation) OR to pay him more than Patches and Price got (again, due to your reasoning), but shorter to allow for a re-evaluation while he's still an RFA (at which point he could certainly demand more money, just like he's doing now and would get it if all things stay the same).

edit: just to clarify - it seems like you're actually suggesting that IF he signs a bridge contract (unclear if that's what you are calling for), he should get wayyy less that I'm proposing. Price and Patches signed long-term to decently plump sums, which I'm fine with. PK has proven himself worthy of a similar contract. I'm not debating that. I'm saying he can't ask for a middle ground price for 4 years or a bigger contract than Patches long term. Same contract, fine.

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01-17-2013, 01:40 PM
  #903
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Originally Posted by PricePkPatch View Post
You poor dumb *******.

The contract Patch just signed is his 3rd contract. His bridge contract was 1.75M$/y, for 2 years. When he signed that bridge contract, he hadn't proved anything beyond one half season, and he just came back from a broken neck.

The contract Carey Price just signed is his 3rd contract. His bridge contract was 2.75M/y, for 2 years, When he signed that bridge contract, he hadn't proven much. He had been upstaged by Halak for a whole year and did not play in the playoffs.

Both now have signed their 3rd contract after proving themselves.

PK Subban is signing his 2nd contract now. He is in a much, much, much, much better position than Patch or Price both were when they signed their respective 2nd contract. Unless you don't understand what a ****ing "bridge contract" is and you actually think the recent signings with 67 and 31 are those.
He hasn't proven enough to jump over the "bridge" contract no matter how much you pump his tires and tell everyone how amazing being +9 is. He was -8 last year so how amazing was that?

He should sign for 2 years and get on with this nonsense.

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01-17-2013, 01:41 PM
  #904
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Originally Posted by OneSharpMarble View Post
He hasn't proven enough to jump over the "bridge" contract no matter how much you pump his tires and tell everyone how amazing being +9 is. He was -8 last year so how amazing was that?

He should sign for 2 years and get on with this nonsense.
This would be ideal.

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01-17-2013, 01:43 PM
  #905
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Why are the chances slim? PK's value is high and it would make sense for a GM who thinks PK is the missing piece for their team to win it all to at least inquire about a trade, no?

Offer sheet would be bad because the picks would not be enough compensation and Bergevin would be forced to match the money offered and be very unhappy about it.

The crux of the problem is that Bergevin is not convinced that PK is the next Chelios. If he signs him long-term and PK stops progressing, we're in cap hell because there's too much money committed to Price and our D group and Bergevin will be stuck with another bad contract and unable to improve the team.

It probably feels like a big gamble from Bergevin's standpoint. But I understand where both sides are coming from.
Because RFA offer sheets don't happen nearly as much as fans thinks they do...

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01-17-2013, 01:43 PM
  #906
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He hasn't proven enough to jump over the "bridge" contract no matter how much you pump his tires and tell everyone how amazing being +9 is. He was -8 last year so how amazing was that?

He should sign for 2 years and get on with this nonsense.
Since when +/- are supposed to mean anything?

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01-17-2013, 01:47 PM
  #907
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Originally Posted by PricePkPatch View Post
Since when +/- are supposed to mean anything?
Seems to be the core reason why some people here think Subban is a demi-god and should get Doughty money for the next 10 years.

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01-17-2013, 01:48 PM
  #908
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First of all...you're unnecessarily getting vitriolic within our own board. Try to avoid that, I'm not into name calling and youtube-worthy comments.
Because you were quoting Patch's and Price's 3rd contract numbers as example that they finally "proved themselves" for their bridge contract.


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You are correct about both your Patches and Price contracts in their situation and number of contracts.

The point here is that PK is at a point where his second contract (as you stated) could be worth more than Price's or Patches' were (you saw the figures I floated, right?). I'm fine with HIS bridge contract being more like a 3rd contract in terms of actual money, although you are still giving PK a little too much credit in terms of proving himself. I think he's a boss, but you need to put in a little more time to deserve what he's allegedly asking. The issue here is that the Habs are willing to make this "bridge" contract worth more (but not exorbitant), but for a longer term (to ensure it goes past his UFA situation) OR to pay him more than Patches and Price got (again, due to your reasoning), but shorter to allow for a re-evaluation while he's still an RFA (at which point he could certainly demand more money, just like he's doing now and would get it if all things stay the same).

edit: just to clarify - it seems like you're actually suggesting that IF he signs a bridge contract (unclear if that's what you are calling for), he should get wayyy less that I'm proposing. Price and Patches signed long-term to decently plump sums, which I'm fine with. PK has proven himself worthy of a similar contract. I'm not debating that. I'm saying he can't ask for a middle ground price for 4 years or a bigger contract than Patches long term. Same contract, fine.
I don't see why you have to be dogmatic about having a bridge contract. Price & Patch did not proved anything that would allow them to jump over it. PK did. He played a key position for a year and a half, and hasn't disappointed. He constantly got better over time, and earned his place as our most used defenseman on every single situation.

I hardly see why you need to sign him a bridge contract to "be sure". We are sure. Subban has been a steadfast member of our lineup for longer than Pacioretty, and yet doesn't deserves more than 2 years just because he happens to be younger?

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01-17-2013, 01:48 PM
  #909
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Originally Posted by OneSharpMarble View Post
He hasn't proven enough to jump over the "bridge" contract no matter how much you pump his tires and tell everyone how amazing being +9 is. He was -8 last year so how amazing was that?

He should sign for 2 years and get on with this nonsense.
Thankfully for Subban, he pays his agent handsomely to give him much better advice.

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01-17-2013, 01:49 PM
  #910
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Seems to be the core reason why some people here think Subban is a demi-god and should get Doughty money for the next 10 years.
Yhea... you know, some of these people actually watched the games and saw him play. Game. After. Game.

Beside Price, he's the player they've seen the most!

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01-17-2013, 01:51 PM
  #911
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Originally Posted by DenverHabsFan View Post
Why are the chances slim? PK's value is high and it would make sense for a GM who thinks PK is the missing piece for their team to win it all to at least inquire about a trade, no?

Offer sheet would be bad because the picks would not be enough compensation and Bergevin would be forced to match the money offered and be very unhappy about it.

The crux of the problem is that Bergevin is not convinced that PK is the next Chelios. If he signs him long-term and PK stops progressing, we're in cap hell because there's too much money committed to Price and our D group and Bergevin will be stuck with another bad contract and unable to improve the team.

It probably feels like a big gamble from Bergevin's standpoint. But I understand where both sides are coming from.
I understand both sides as well, but which side do you think is 'right'?

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01-17-2013, 01:51 PM
  #912
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Originally Posted by PricePkPatch View Post
Because you were quoting Patch's and Price's 3rd contract numbers as example that they finally "proved themselves" for their bridge contract.




I don't see why you have to be dogmatic about having a bridge contract. Price & Patch did not proved anything that would allow them to jump over it. PK did. He played a key position for a year and a half, and hasn't disappointed. He constantly got better over time, and earned his place as our most used defenseman on every single situation.

I hardly see why you need to sign him a bridge contract to "be sure". We are sure. Subban has been a steadfast member of our lineup for longer than Pacioretty, and yet doesn't deserves more than 2 years just because he happens to be younger?
WOW! Well better stick him in the HHOF. A year and a half is unquestionable.

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Yhea... you know, some of these people actually watched the games and saw him play. Game. After. Game.

Beside Price, he's the player they've seen the most!
And as everyone knows the habs have the best armchair GM's in the world. Just a shame ACTUAL GM's disagree with them.

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01-17-2013, 01:53 PM
  #913
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WOW! Well better stick him in the HHOF. A year and a half is unquestionable.
there is no talking to you. HHOF? What the **** are you talking about dude?

We are talking about the reliability of a young player. A year and a half on our universal top pairing, that's reliable.

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01-17-2013, 01:53 PM
  #914
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Originally Posted by OneSharpMarble View Post
Seems to be the core reason why some people here think Subban is a demi-god and should get Doughty money for the next 10 years.
Actually no, +/- is just one of many stats and probably the least important that show that Subban is a legitimate top tier defender. Also watching games helps, though having numbers to back it up instead of the thinking with emotion helps even more.

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01-17-2013, 01:56 PM
  #915
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Because RFA offer sheets don't happen nearly as much as fans thinks they do...
I agree, and this is why MB has more leverage imo.

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01-17-2013, 01:58 PM
  #916
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Originally Posted by PricePkPatch View Post
there is no talking to you. HHOF? What the **** are you talking about dude?

We are talking about the reliability of a young player. A year and a half on our universal top pairing, that's reliable.
In case you didn't know the cap is going to drop and Bergevin kinda has to be careful about who he signs to long term deals. It is actually for the betterment of the club and safety of the future. Anyways he disagrees with you, I think he knows a bit more about PK than you do. If Bergevin and management don't think it is a good deal there is probably a good reason why.

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01-17-2013, 01:58 PM
  #917
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Originally Posted by PricePkPatch View Post
You have to earn your stripes? What part of "half of the first pair used on ES, PP and PK" doesn't qualify as "earning your stripes"?

You are effectively saying it doesn't matter how a player will play his ECL; he'll always have only a bridge contract, no matter what.

Price and Patch hadn't proved themselves the way PK already has when they finished their ECL. The same logic

DOESN'T

APPLY
Firstly, could you please state what deals would be acceptable to you, cuz I don't see how what I've suggested is super unfair to PK.

Second, suppose you had to sign Price to a contract after his first year (consider how many seasons Subban has played). He had just as much of a claim given his position, hype, importance to the future as PK does according to you. You would argue that he skip a modest contract and go big!

Since he had to play multiple seasons to show he was the real deal in order to get the big contract, his faltering during his young development process is not NOW seen as a huge mistake. He lost it for a bit (not THAT long, maybe a season and a half and with horrible D for 50% of that).

The same sort of thing could happen to PK. The only thing that kept Price alive with the Habs was Gainey's belief in him. They could have traded him instead when things were bad, but he bounced back, showed he's the man for the job and got rewarded. PK could have an abysmal season this year and a bloated contract will then seem imprudent. (It WILL have been!)

All I'm suggesting is that given we have confidence in PK, but would like him to focus on developing as opposed to already having earned a big contract. Still, if he wants more money, then show your loyalty to the team by avoiding going to UFA. Still, he cannot ask for a ridiculous amount at this point. He has not proven himself beyond Patches and DEFINITELY not beyond Price. Still, Bergevin and most fans are willing to give him way more money than those two bridge contracts, just not Doughty or Suter money. That's just silly!

Again, eager to hear your proposal.

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01-17-2013, 01:59 PM
  #918
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I agree, and this is why MB has more leverage imo.
Indeed.

If I had to guess, Subban (or more likely, his agent) want to wait to see how the 1st game goes. If they are busted badly and the crowd screams "Subban", they will win. Leverage will be on their side.

If not, they will most likely settle for a low(ish)-salary 2-years and break the bank in 2015.

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01-17-2013, 02:00 PM
  #919
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Originally Posted by OneSharpMarble View Post
In case you didn't know the cap is going to drop and Bergevin kinda has to be careful about who he signs to long term deals. It is actually for the betterment of the club and safety of the future. Anyways he disagrees with you, I think he knows a bit more about PK than you do. If Bergevin and management don't think it is a good deal there is probably a good reason why.
I'm with this guy.

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01-17-2013, 02:04 PM
  #920
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Indeed.

If I had to guess, Subban (or more likely, his agent) want to wait to see how the 1st game goes. If they are busted badly and the crowd screams "Subban", they will win. Leverage will be on their side.

If not, they will most likely settle for a low(ish)-salary 2-years and break the bank in 2015.
True, that might happen and then they open up the vault for PK and then like most young players that get too much too soon produce piss poor results when the expectation level is raised by a market like Montreal.

Or they could go on a winning streak.

I understand where PK is coming from but if he really wanted to play and be a hab he would have signed what the organization offered. The closer you get to the season the more you play with fire...hab fans are fickle...they will chant your name one day and make your life a living hell the next. But PK doesn't care if he gets the contract his agent thinks he deserves right?

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01-17-2013, 02:05 PM
  #921
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Originally Posted by PricePkPatch View Post
Because you were quoting Patch's and Price's 3rd contract numbers as example that they finally "proved themselves" for their bridge contract.




I don't see why you have to be dogmatic about having a bridge contract. Price & Patch did not proved anything that would allow them to jump over it. PK did. He played a key position for a year and a half, and hasn't disappointed. He constantly got better over time, and earned his place as our most used defenseman on every single situation.

I hardly see why you need to sign him a bridge contract to "be sure". We are sure. Subban has been a steadfast member of our lineup for longer than Pacioretty, and yet doesn't deserves more than 2 years just because he happens to be younger?
I think it's just the semantics that you're focussing too hard on. Look at the deals I proposed. That's what should matter and the reasoning for him still being in an evaluational stage although WITH leverage. By transitional (which is the word I used to describe the situation), I mean 2 years BUT I also opened the door to more than 4 years, but just not Doughty money.

We all really love PK. We all think he's at the core of our team. We all think he's been great and has been improving. But it's been 2 years and 2 playoff series (as in he didn't play that reg. season). You have to put that into the equation when asking for THAT much money. The real concern here is not that he won't be good, it's that

a) he shouldn't be making more than everyone on the team
b) he shouldn't be trying to extract the most out of us NOW leading up to free agency
c) if he really wants long term, he has to realize that he has yet to deserve the kind of money that we regularly deride for that many years. He isn't Scott Gomez, but still, that's a ******** of cash and we will need it long term for our OTHER possibly equally-important players.

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01-17-2013, 02:08 PM
  #922
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I think it is very important for Bergevin to stay strong and not cave at this point. If he rolls over and accomodates Subban as a "special" case, every decent player negotiating in the future will use him as leverage. I hope Bergevin stays the course, keeps to the price range that he set for himself at the beginning of this negotiation (term too), and shows the agents that hes not going to be pushed around. For the future of this team, lets hope Bergevin makes a point and refuses to back down.

Don't get me wrong, Subban IS our best defenseman. With that said I don't think hes a player that is special enough to warrent his own set of rules when the team approaches his contract negotiations. That could create a very unhealthy environment in the future as far as contract negotiations go, especially if players (maybe even Galchenyuk) point at Subbans contract and say "well he got X then, so why shouldn't I get Y now".

For the record, any hate towards Subban in these negotiations should be redirected towards his agent. Mehan is notorious for being a tough negotiator (which is what makes him one of the best agents out there). I would put money on it that Subban himself just wants this to be over, and can't wait to play hockey.

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01-17-2013, 02:08 PM
  #923
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Originally Posted by Capitano View Post
I understand both sides as well, but which side do you think is 'right'?
Why does one have to be right or wrong? They're both doing what's allowed to them under the CBA...nothing illegal or even immorale going on here (not that the latter would even matter mind you)

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01-17-2013, 02:11 PM
  #924
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Firstly, could you please state what deals would be acceptable to you, cuz I don't see how what I've suggested is super unfair to PK.
It is not. But maybe it's not what Subban wants. Just because a deal is, technically, fair, doesn't mean you have to swallow it if it's not what you want.

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Second, suppose you had to sign Price to a contract after his first year (consider how many seasons Subban has played). He had just as much of a claim given his position, hype, importance to the future as PK does according to you. You would argue that he skip a modest contract and go big!
Subban has played 2 seasons. Not 1; 2.

Carey Price started off hot in 07-08, sure. But he weakened at times and often lost his footing to Christobal Huet at the time.

And then 08-09, 09-10 came upon us, with Halak upstaging him in the 2nd season.

When the 2010 contract signing arrived, Price hadn't proved himself to be a 100% reliable #1 goalie. Not a single year; Huet or Halak were always on his heels. PK Subban, on the other hand, kept being one of the most reliable player since 2011 arrived.

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Since he had to play multiple seasons to show he was the real deal in order to get the big contract, his faltering during his young development process is not NOW seen as a huge mistake. He lost it for a bit (not THAT long, maybe a season and a half and with horrible D for 50% of that).

The same sort of thing could happen to PK. The only thing that kept Price alive with the Habs was Gainey's belief in him. They could have traded him instead when things were bad, but he bounced back, showed he's the man for the job and got rewarded. PK could have an abysmal season this year and a bloated contract will then seem imprudent. (It WILL have been!)
Yes, but it keeps looking less and less likely. If Subban had faltered last season, he would have proved not to be a reliable #1 yet. But he did not. He's known some bad streaks (but then, so did every one of our players) but he kept going and have known some amazing moments.

Never he showed the sort of instability Price showed early in his career. Subban's worst time was the early 2010-11 season, and he improved by leaps of giants since, never regressing.

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All I'm suggesting is that given we have confidence in PK, but would like him to focus on developing as opposed to already having earned a big contract. Still, if he wants more money, then show your loyalty to the team by avoiding going to UFA. Still, he cannot ask for a ridiculous amount at this point. He has not proven himself beyond Patches and DEFINITELY not beyond Price. Still, Bergevin and most fans are willing to give him way more money than those two bridge contracts, just not Doughty or Suter money. That's just silly!

Again, eager to hear your proposal.
I do not believe Subban thinks he has reached his full potential yet. I don't think he will sit on his big contract; that's not in his nature.

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01-17-2013, 02:12 PM
  #925
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I think it's just the semantics that you're focussing too hard on. Look at the deals I proposed. That's what should matter and the reasoning for him still being in an evaluational stage although WITH leverage. By transitional (which is the word I used to describe the situation), I mean 2 years BUT I also opened the door to more than 4 years, but just not Doughty money.

We all really love PK. We all think he's at the core of our team. We all think he's been great and has been improving. But it's been 2 years and 2 playoff series (as in he didn't play that reg. season). You have to put that into the equation when asking for THAT much money. The real concern here is not that he won't be good, it's that

a) he shouldn't be making more than everyone on the team
b) he shouldn't be trying to extract the most out of us NOW leading up to free agency
c) if he really wants long term, he has to realize that he has yet to deserve the kind of money that we regularly deride for that many years. He isn't Scott Gomez, but still, that's a ******** of cash and we will need it long term for our OTHER possibly equally-important players.
I wrote this earlier, I believe it applies to your ideology:

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OK sure, but let's have a discussion.

How much is Subban worth this year? I would say somewhere around 4 million. He has talent, and does help the team win. I also find him to be inconsistent at playing an uptempo game that he proves he is capable of.

Now if you agree with my description, do you see him getting better, staying the same, or getting worse? I personally see him getting better. He has the tools to be a #1 and he does seem like a dedicated player. I do not think he is there yet, based on last year, but I do believe he is not far away either. With the chance of him being able to reach his potential this season is what I think is throwing off the negotiations. If we take it year by year salary for multiple contracts, I see it like this:

2 year contract:
2013 ---------> 4,000,000$
2013-2014 ---> 5,000,000$
Cap hit of 4,500,000$

This to me does not benefit Subban or the Habs for that matter If he does pan out, we will now need to sign him where he might be able to demand 7 million a year, assuming he is a #1 D with Norris Candidate in his repertoire. At first I thought he should get a 2 year deal like Max and Carey got, but he really isn't in the same position they were after the ELC. Subban has done more and proved more than they did at this point. Max was having some confidence issues and Carey was fighting with Halak for the starting role. Subban last year took on some of the best players in the NHL and didn't do that as bad individually compared to how bad the whole team finished.


3 year contract:
2013 ---------> 4,000,000$
2013-2014 ---> 5,000,000$
2014-2015 ---> 6,000,000$
Cap hit of 5,000,000$

Not so bad I guess, keeps him on RFA status and we do this all again.

4 year contract:
2013 ---------> 4,000,000$
2013-2014 ---> 5,000,000$
2014-2015 ---> 6,000,000$
2015-2016 ---> 6,500,000$
Cap hit of 5,375,000$

I don't like him getting to UFA status in his prime. This could mean overpayment. With a star player who is possibly at the best point in his career... He gets a lot of cards on the table in this negotiation.

6 year contract:
2013 ---------> 4,000,000$
2013-2014 ---> 4,500,000$
2014-2015 ---> 5,000,000$
2015-2016 ---> 6,500,000$
2016-2017 ---> 7,000,000$
2018-2019 ---> 7,500,000$
Cap hit of 5,750,000$

Now based on this contract we have him signed until he is 30 with a very manageable 5.75 million cap hit. Provided he becomes a star this will be a great discount to have. At this cap hit he is tied with Markov for 15th highest cap hit by a defensemen.

Subban was 28th in scoring by a defensemen last season, which in essence makes him a #1 D for points since the league has 30 #1Ds technically (obviously a flawed way of looking at things, but it works for my argument) and the 28th highest cap hit for a defensemen is 4.6 million, which is not that far off with next years 4 million in salary for Subban. Edit: He was also 17th in ATOI last year for defensemen.

Right now I think I may be titling towards a long term deal because I have faith in Subban. I realize this all comes crashing down if he doesn't reach the ceiling a lot of us envision for him but then again 5.75 for Subban can't be that bad from what we have scene him do already.

I'm just eager for him to sign, we are a much better team with him in the lineup than not.

CrAzYNiNe is offline  
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