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Round 2, Vote 10 (HOH Top Goaltenders final round)

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Old
01-17-2013, 01:18 PM
  #26
seventieslord
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So with all that said, here’s where I’m probably leaning for starters:

Lundqvist
Cheevers
Liut
Connell
Rollins
Thomas
Chabot
Kiprusoff
Kerr
Vernon
Richter
Roach
Hern
Dzurilla
Hextall


Last edited by seventieslord: 01-17-2013 at 01:54 PM.
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01-17-2013, 01:18 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
You seem to be trying to squeeze a lot of mileage out of Tim Thomas losing his job one time in seven seasons to the league leader in save percentage because of a hip injury that required off-season surgery. When healthy, Tim Thomas was the starter for the Boston Bruins from January 2006 until I suppose this weekend.
The fact that Rask came in and led the league in sv% just like Thomas before and after him, is not necessarily a positive for Thomas.

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01-17-2013, 01:19 PM
  #28
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Why can't the people who want to do a top-50 (or even 60) just start a brand new project independent of this one, and submit new lists with the top-40 from this project ineligible?

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01-17-2013, 01:26 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Connell over Chabot/Kerr, Chabot/Kerr over Roach. Everyone agree?
Connell would be our 10th goaltender to be born from 1904 and earlier. Chabot/Roach would be our 11th/12th. I was high on Chabot in my Top 60 (#38), but it's going to take a fairly strong argument for me to give the pre-1940s generation a bigger slice of the pie than they already have on this list.

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01-17-2013, 01:30 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
The fact that Rask came in and led the league in sv% just like Thomas before and after him, is not necessarily a positive for Thomas.
The fact that Rask posted 20 points below Thomas in 2011, while Fernandez posted 23 points below Thomas in 2009 is, however, most certainly a positive.

This is, of course, the same Fernandez who put up league-leading numbers over Ed Belfour in 2000 in 24 games.

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01-17-2013, 01:34 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
A goaltender cannot control how often his coach plays him.
I disagree with that to a certain extent. First of all, when goalies prove durable and consistent enough, they get more starts - goalies don't start getting 70+ starts without showing something first... ever. Second of all, when a coach decides to play a goalie 70+ games it has just as much to do with his perception of the backup as anything else, so performance (something a goalie can control) compared to the backup plays a part as well. You can earn more starts by performing that much better than your in-house competition, regardless of who else is getting X number of starts across the league and what their situation is.

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01-17-2013, 01:36 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
So with all that said, hereís where Iím probably leaning for starters:

Lundqvist
Liut
Cheevers
Connell
Liut
Rollins
Thomas
Chabot
Kiprusoff
Kerr
Vernon
Richter
Roach
Hern
Dzurilla
Hextall
and please tell me if you think I'm out of whack on something. I will honestly listen to you. The margins are razor-thin this far down, and, it may surprise you to know that I realize I could be wrong.

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01-17-2013, 01:39 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
and please tell me if you think I'm out of whack on something. I will honestly listen to you. The margins are razor-thin this far down, and, it may surprise you to know that I realize I could be wrong.
Voting for Liut twice may cause a problem for some...

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01-17-2013, 01:43 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
The fact that Rask posted 20 points below Thomas in 2011, while Fernandez posted 23 points below Thomas in 2009 is, however, most certainly a positive.

This is, of course, the same Fernandez who put up league-leading numbers over Ed Belfour in 2000 in 24 games.
Meh. Rask posted that save percentage in a year where he had to be taken out twice for groin issues, and Fernandez posted that season at age 34 after being limited to only 4 games for the entire previous season due to injury, so yeah... I wouldn't read too much into the spread there. Fernandez injured his shoulder blowdrying his hair once, so...

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01-17-2013, 01:49 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
and please tell me if you think I'm out of whack on something. I will honestly listen to you. The margins are razor-thin this far down, and, it may surprise you to know that I realize I could be wrong.
It's far enough down that it's probably irrelevant to the final list, but what's your justification for Vernon over Richter? I guess there's Vezina voting and team success, but that's about it. In terms of numbers, reputation and the eye test I see a pretty substantial edge for Richter, and I don't even rate Richter all that highly because he almost certainly had very padded stats from generous home shot counting.

Vernon would be fighting Hextall for dead last in this group in my book.

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01-17-2013, 01:50 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Meh. Rask posted that save percentage in a year where he had to be taken out twice for groin issues, and Fernandez posted that season at age 34 after being limited to only 4 games for the entire previous season due to injury, so yeah... I wouldn't read too much into the spread there. Fernandez injured his shoulder blowdrying his hair once, so...
Tim Thomas is older than Manny Fernandez.
Tim Thomas had groin issues in 2010, but is getting criticized for losing his job.
Tim Thomas rebounded from 2010 with his 2011, which was pretty good.

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01-17-2013, 02:09 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
Voting for Liut twice may cause a problem for some...
What can I say, I am just that sure about Liut.

actually, Iím not sure how I managed to do that. I decided to split the difference and put him between Connell and Cheevers to start. Iíve fixed my initial post.


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Originally Posted by ContrarianGoaltender View Post
It's far enough down that it's probably irrelevant to the final list, but what's your justification for Vernon over Richter? I guess there's Vezina voting and team success, but that's about it. In terms of numbers, reputation and the eye test I see a pretty substantial edge for Richter, and I don't even rate Richter all that highly because he almost certainly had very padded stats from generous home shot counting.

Vernon would be fighting Hextall for dead last in this group in my book.
Youíre right that itís irrelevant to the top-40.

Vezina voting and team success are part of the picture, yes.

Reputation and eye test mostly have Vernon ahead, do they not?

Stats: Vernonís best 6 GARG per hockeygoalies.org are 41.8, 31.8, 30.1, 28.4, 21.7, 20.7. Richterís are 54.3, 52.5, 45.2, 34.2, 33.6. That is considerable better, but they were also boosted as you said.

Heís certainly got the longevity advantage, too. 11 seasons between Cup final appearances, for starters. Heís pretty much an Osgood (who deserves some modicum of credit for the team success he contributed to) who we can all agree was better individually, right?

In any case, the fact that I put them a spot apart means that I see it as really close, plus with neither in my top-10, theyíll both get the same number of points out of me Ė zero.

The case was made to me before, by MadArcand, that Hextall was better. In the end I didnít buy it and still donít, but it did convince me Hextall was a little better than I thought 2 years ago, and Vernon a lot worse. (Hextallís best 6 years: 72.5, 51.0, 39.0, 38.0, 32.1, 27.0. Three of his best 4 years came with the 1980s Flyers who made every goalie Ė Peeters, Lindbergh, Froese Ė look better than they were, so Iím very doubtful of him)

In the playoffs, Hextallís 39 GAR, in 93 games. Vernon is just 38 in 138 games, Richter 43.3 in just 76 games.

Take out best seasons, and Hextallís at 19.2 in 70 games, Vernon is 22.5 in 116, Richter is 25.2 in 76.

Makes it look like both were potentially better on a per-game level, but heís just got an insane sample size of games and that in itself deserves recognition.

OK, now scrutinize. I want to know if this stands up to it.

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01-17-2013, 02:13 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Theokritos View Post
Is there a case for Dzurilla in the Top 40? I don't know, but Seth Martin is the dominant guy here and I don't see why Dzurilla should rank higher than him. A better comparison would be Ken Broderick: Dzurilla was considered better than Broderick in 1965, Broderick better than Dzurilla in 1968. Even if we take the level Tretiak demonstrated from 1972 on as an indication that European Goaltending took a considerable step forward between 1968 and 1972, I don't think that's enough to put Dzurilla ahead, especially since he didn't win any WC accolade in 1970.
Seth Martin really got screwed by the format of this thing. He was on very few top 60 lists at first, then I did research into him and posted it in the preliminary thread. He was on most top 60 lists that were submitted after that, but we had already gotten enough lists beforehand leaving him off the ballot. If he was on the early lists at the same rate as the late lists, he'd be available now. He's the only one that happened with.

Anyway, the lack of Seth Martin shouldn't mean that Dzurilla doesn't get added if he deserves to be.

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01-17-2013, 02:22 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
first instincts:

- I didn't take Richter seriously last round and I still don't. Vernon is at about the same level. Hextall is below them. Kipper is above that whole lot, and I can't even see myself voting him in. Liut and Thomas are better, and Lundqvist is better than them.
Well I have Richter and Hextall over Vernon, but it doesn't matter - none are top 8 material IMO. Kipper, Thomas, and Liut will probably be in my top 8 somewhere. I had Kipper and Liut 7th and 8th last time though, but that doesn't mean it can't change. Lundqvist is my #1 and anyone who could knock him from that spot got in last round.

Quote:
- I don't see myself voting for Dzurilla. If Seth Martin can't get in (and there's no guarantee he would or should if we went to 50, even) then Dzurilla can't either. It doesn't look like he was as good as Martin.
Already answered this up thread.

Quote:
- Connell over Chabot/Kerr, Chabot/Kerr over Roach. Everyone agree?
I think it's time for Connell to get in. I thought your point that he should be reasonably far behind Hainsworth and Thompson was a good one, but we are at that point now. He'll definitely be in my top 4, possibly second after Lundqvist.

As for the rest, I have Connell over Roach/Kerr, and Roach/Kerr over Chabot. I really don't get the appeal of Chabot - he seems kind of like a 1-season wonder to me, and unlike Roach, Chabot never beat out Charlie Gardiner for 1st Team honors.

Quote:
- All I know about Hern's ranking is that it should be below LeSueur. With Percy in, you could reasonably vote Hern anywhere.
I think there needs to be big time separation between LeSueuer and Hern, and I have Paddy Moran as #2 of the early HHOFers above Hern. Hern's an easy "no rank" for me. I'd consider him if we extended to top 50, but we aren't.

Quote:
- That leaves Cheevers and Rollins. They have no contemporaries to compare to this round, so we're stuck trying to compare them to other players. There are good reasons to put them in, but also good reasons not to (what are they both, the 7th best of their generations, when others aren't nearly that represented yet?)

TBH, I knew Cheevers was gonna come up too early, get knocked down a few pegs but eventually get in the top-40, now I can't even say that's a guarantee. If you just look at the voting from last round and assume that continues, he ain't getting in. I'm not sure I like that. Who's the next-most recent HHOF goalie to not be in? Moran?

edit: obviously that would be Connell...
Cheevers is tough. On the one hand, what seperates him from Giacomin and Vachon? On the other hand, we are already overrepresenting the 1970s, probably because we are judging NHLers against only other NHLers but then added Tretiak and Holecek on top of them (rather than appropriately discounting NHL accomplishments in the 1970s due to the fact that there were great players in other leagues).

Rollins will probably be in my top 8 after the conversation at the end of last round. Not sure if he makes my top 4 though.

I'm honestly not sure who makes my top 4 other than Lundqvist and Connell.

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01-17-2013, 02:22 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Seth Martin really got screwed by the format of this thing. He was on very few top 60 lists at first, then I did research into him and posted it in the preliminary thread. He was on most top 60 lists that were submitted after that, but we had already gotten enough lists beforehand leaving him off the ballot. If he was on the early lists at the same rate as the late lists, he'd be available now. He's the only one that happened with.

Anyway, the lack of Seth Martin shouldn't mean that Dzurilla doesn't get added if he deserves to be.
You are, of course, correct, but in reality, Martin and Konovalenko are the easiest guys to compare to Dzurilla, and they're not here, and he's really, really difficult to compare to anyone else up now.

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01-17-2013, 02:25 PM
  #41
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Cheevers is tough. On the one hand, what seperates him from Giacomin and Vachon?
Season by season individual recognition, in a big way.

On the other hand, he got into the hall sooner than either of them, so.... ???

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01-17-2013, 02:26 PM
  #42
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Why can't the people who want to do a top-50 (or even 60) just start a brand new project independent of this one, and submit new lists with the top-40 from this project ineligible?
If you want to organize that, go ahead.

I wanted to continue if it wasn't much work (and adding 2 rounds with what we already have isn't much work), but I'm not interested in organizing a new project from scratch.


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01-17-2013, 02:50 PM
  #43
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You are, of course, correct, but in reality, Martin and Konovalenko are the easiest guys to compare to Dzurilla, and they're not here, and he's really, really difficult to compare to anyone else up now.
Dzurilla is definitely better than Konovalenko. More recognition in head to head tournaments, and while Dzurilla has the missing years in the early 70s, he proved himself against better competition during his brief comeback in the mid 70s.

Dzurilla vs. Martin is an interesting debate, but like I said, just because Martin isn't available yet (and IMO we unintentionally screwed him with early voting in Round 1), doesn't mean we shouldn't consider Dzurilla.

Would Giacomin, Vachon, or Cheevers be a decent place to start for Dzurilla?


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01-17-2013, 02:59 PM
  #44
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NHL All Star Teams for pre-Vezina goalies

I'm including the unofficial GM-voted teams from the late 20s when available. 3rd Team All Stars are unofficial but based off the same pool of votes that determine 1st and 2nd Team.

Riley Hern pre-dated the NHL All-Star Teams, and Vladimir Dzurilla spent his career in Europe.

John Ross Roach
  • 3rd in Hart voting, 1st among goalies (1924), only 2 points behind the winner Frank Nighbor (Nighbor 37, Sprague Cleghorn 36, Roach 35). The NHL was only a half league then, though. .
  • 1st Team All Star (1933) over Charlie Gardiner and Roy Worters
Roach finished 4th in 1932 (7 votes, almost as much as "3rd Teamer" Hainsworth)
Roach was also 4th (2 votes) on the 1928 GM-voted All Star team - the only year before 1931 for which we have records other than for the Hart Trophy.

Alec Connell
  • 3rd Team All Star (1928) behind Worters and Hainsworth - the only year before 1931 we have records past 1st
  • 3rd Team All Star* (1935) behind Lorne Chabot and Tiny Thompson. *possibly tied with Roy Worters for 3rd
Lorne Chabot
  • 1st Team All Star (1935) over Tiny Thompson, Roy Worters/Alec Connell
4 goalies received votes for the 1927-28 GM-voted All Star team; Chabot wasn't one of them.

Chabot tied for 4th in 1931 (2 votes), finished 5th in 1932 (3 votes), 5th in 1933 (3 votes).

Dave Kerr
  • 2nd Team All Star (1938) behind Tiny Thompson, over Wilf Cude
  • 3rd Team All Star (1939) behind rookie Frank Brimsek and Earl Robertson
  • 1st Team All Star (1940) ahead of Frank Brimsek and Earl Robertson
Kerr finished 4th in 1937 (5 votes).

Al Rollins
  • 3rd Team All Star (1951) behind Terry Sawchuk and Chuck Rayner, while playing only 40 games
  • not top 2 1952 (incomplete records)
  • not top 2 in 1953 (incomplete records), but Hart runner-up
  • 3rd Team All Star (1954) behind Harry Lumley and Terry Sawchuk. Won Hart Trophy.
Rollins was 4th in All Star voting behind Hall, Plante, and Sawchuk in 1957 - his last full year in the NHL before he was sent to the minors.

Gerry Cheevers
Never finished top 4 in NHL All-Star voting.
His best is 5th in 1969. He also finished 6th in 1970, 1977, and 1979.

In the WHA:
  • 1972-73 WHA All-Star Team (1st)
  • 1973-74 WHA All-Star Team (2nd)
  • 1974-75 WHA All-Star Team (2nd)

Mike Liut
  • 3rd Team All Star (1980) behind Tony Esposito and Don Edwards
  • 1st Team All Star (1981) ahead of Mario Lessard and Don Edwards
  • 2nd Team All Star (1987) very narrowly behind Ron Hextall, way ahead of Grant Fuhr
Liut finished 4th in 1990.


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 01-17-2013 at 03:19 PM. Reason: corrected info on roach
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01-17-2013, 03:11 PM
  #45
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Mike Liut was an elite goalie in 1980 and in 1990. No one else can really come close to saying that.

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01-17-2013, 03:27 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
As for the rest, I have Connell over Roach/Kerr, and Roach/Kerr over Chabot. I really don't get the appeal of Chabot - he seems kind of like a 1-season wonder to me, and unlike Roach, Chabot never beat out Charlie Gardiner for 1st Team honors.
I took Kerr 8th last round over Chabot and was so surprised he received two first place votes. I had Chabot pretty low on my original list so I'm probably underrating him, but I definitely think making sense of him vs Roach and Kerr would be helpful.

Quote:
I think there needs to be big time separation between LeSueuer and Hern, and I have Paddy Moran as #2 of the early HHOFers above Hern. Hern's an easy "no rank" for me. I'd consider him if we extended to top 50, but we aren't.
The big problem with Hern for me is the lack of the eye-test (primary sources praising him). We know how well LeSueuer was regarded, and we know that Hern posted better numbers, so why isn't the same praise so readily available? Obviously there's an answer to that question and I'd rather not invent an answer so I have a hard time taking him over Moran too.

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01-17-2013, 03:35 PM
  #47
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Montreal Star or Montreal Herald

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Originally Posted by Bring Back Scuderi View Post
I took Kerr 8th last round over Chabot and was so surprised he received two first place votes. I had Chabot pretty low on my original list so I'm probably underrating him, but I definitely think making sense of him vs Roach and Kerr would be helpful.


The big problem with Hern for me is the lack of the eye-test (primary sources praising him). We know how well LeSueuer was regarded, and we know that Hern posted better numbers, so why isn't the same praise so readily available? Obviously there's an answer to that question and I'd rather not invent an answer so I have a hard time taking him over Moran too.
Lack of access to the old Montreal Star or Montreal Herald archives is the major obstacle.

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01-17-2013, 03:36 PM
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I took Kerr 8th last round over Chabot and was so surprised he received two first place votes. I had Chabot pretty low on my original list so I'm probably underrating him, but I definitely think making sense of him vs Roach and Kerr would be helpful.
Look at how much more recognition Roach received than Chabot, playing at almost the same time! Even when both were a 1st Team All Star, I'll take Roach's. Chabot was a 1AS the year after Gardiner died, while Roach is the only one to ever knock Gardiner from his throne in the early 30s. I read a lot about Roach, as he was my ATD backup last year, and the knock against him was inconsistency. So it's possible that Roach is the Barrasso (highs and lows) to Chabot's Cujo (consistently good). But still, it's not like Chabot was barely missing out on All Star Teams, other than 1934-35, he wasn't even close. Chabot beats Roach 2 Cups to 1, but I really don't find that a very compelling argument.

Edit: So I really do hope someone tells me what the deal with Chabot is, because right now, I have him below both Roach and Kerr. I'm far from an expert on this class of goalies though.

Quote:
The big problem with Hern for me is the lack of the eye-test (primary sources praising him). We know how well LeSueuer was regarded, and we know that Hern posted better numbers, so why isn't the same praise so readily available? Obviously there's an answer to that question and I'd rather not invent an answer so I have a hard time taking him over Moran too.
A big thing for me is that Hern retired in 1911 when competition was still very weak, while LeSueur and Moran made it to 1916 and 1917 - overlapping the era of Georges Vezina, Joe Malone, and Newsy Lalonde by several years.


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01-17-2013, 03:47 PM
  #49
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Lack of access to the old Montreal Star or Montreal Herald archives is the major obstacle.
Interesting, is there any reason the Gazette wouldn't suffice?

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01-17-2013, 03:52 PM
  #50
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Mike Liut was an elite goalie in 1980 and in 1990. No one else can really come close to saying that.
I don't honestly think Liut can even come close to saying that. Unless by 1990 we're talking about an elite backup. He was flip-flopping good/bad years with Sidorkiewicz, and two disappointing seasons as Beaupre's backup from retirement, by that point. Great first half of the decade though, and definitely considered one of the best right up to the Millen trade at the very least, with '87 adding a bit of later cred.

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