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Zack Bogosian to Detroit

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Old
01-17-2013, 01:42 PM
  #201
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bhay1987 View Post
Any Wings/non Wings fans that would have a comparable player to Nyqvist's likely and absolute upside?
Likely upside is Filppula lite imo.. Max upside is Filppula. Assuming Flip is around 65-70 point player for his prime.

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01-17-2013, 01:45 PM
  #202
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Originally Posted by Viqsi View Post
He pretty much has been in general. Not by all Wings fans, tho.

The Red Wings fanbase is presently getting embarrassed by a vocal subgroup that is unshakably convinced that some subset of Nyquist/Tartar/Jurco/Smith/etc. WILL be the next underrated unheralded NHL superstars a la Datsyuk/Zetterberg and those who don't get that far and Helm WILL be the next irreplacable roleplaying lifers a la Draper/Drake/etc. for no particular reason beyond "that's just how it works with the Red Wings", and that folks aren't immediately agreeing because of persecution/ignorance/ThanksGaryAss/whatever. The media-driven mystique of "Detroit always drafts stars in late rounds" sure as heck isn't helping (remember when Ericsson was going to be a regular Norris contender?).

So far, however, manifestations of this insanity have been limited largely to "we're still a Cup contender and the playoffs are a guarantee". More moderate and sensible Wings fans have been unable to address this in any comprehensive fashion, as they've been busy trying to fend off the equally insane vultures from other teams who maniacally insist that this is finally Detroit's time to be a doomed failure because OMG OLD PEOPLE PRESENTED BY AMWAY.

The "we are NHL gods" nutcases have taken an unprecedented step with this one, though. It's rather painful to see. I'd feel bad for the reasonable Wings fans, except, well, they're Wings fans.
Ericsson has looked good in camp this year, I don't recall anyone referring to him as a Norris candidate of any kind. He'll never be a top pairing defenseman, and he may as well never be a top 4 pairing defenseman, but he may be a very serviceable 5/6 guy for his career. We may not have another Datsyuk or Zetterberg in the system, but Nyquist and Jarnkrok especially have first line player upside at the very least.(Does this serve as a proclivity to avoid doom? Obviously that's not a guarantee.) As for your comments about the fanbase, this is generally the nature of teams that are good or have been good. You have band wagon nut cases, and then you have actual, sensible fans. Suffice to say, it's a tumultuous time for the Red Wings.

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01-17-2013, 01:46 PM
  #203
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Originally Posted by Cyborg Yzerman View Post
Would Tatar, Franzen, Kindl, and a first be feasible? Or would the deal have to center around Nyquist?

Tatar projects to be a top 6, two-way forward who should be in the NHL right now, but is another example of Holland keeping prospects out of the DRW lineup for too long.
It's pretty rare for a 4 for 1 to be pulled off. It's hard to stack up enough nickels to justify a quarter from a hockey trade perspective.

Franzen is obviously a valuable player, and Tatar and the 1st definetely has potential. I would think that Kindl is somewhat of a throw in at this point in time. From at total value perspective the deal might work, but would NEVER happen for three reasons.

1) Bogo's potential is so high. I'm not a Jet's fan, but he really made huge strides last year from what I saw.
2) So much of the value in the deal being unproven.
3) IMO - the Jet's strength is already on the wing. Adding Franson doesn't necessarily fill a need, and opens a big hole on the blueline.

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01-17-2013, 01:47 PM
  #204
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Originally Posted by ManByng View Post
^it would cost a little more than that! more like Nyqvist, Oulette and a 1st perhaps? we ARE talking about a potential #1 d-man after all.
Good God.

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Originally Posted by bhay1987 View Post
Any Wings/non Wings fans that would have a comparable player to Nyqvist's likely and absolute upside?
I'd put his ceiling at Filppula 2.0/Datsyuk lite.

Note to anybody itching to jump on that comparison, I said ceiling.

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01-17-2013, 01:48 PM
  #205
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Originally Posted by Wingsfan2965 View Post
So top pairing defender and a 2nd. For potential top pairing defender and potential top line forward.

No thanks.
exactly why I said WPG has no incentive to move Bogosian. You're gonna have to overpay to get him.

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01-17-2013, 01:51 PM
  #206
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Detroit is welcome to take Zack Bogosian, but Zach Bogosian isn't going anywhere.

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01-17-2013, 01:51 PM
  #207
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyborg Yzerman View Post
Would Tatar, Franzen, Kindl, and a first be feasible? Or would the deal have to center around Nyquist?

Tatar projects to be a top 6, two-way forward who should be in the NHL right now, but is another example of Holland keeping prospects out of the DRW lineup for too long.
honestly its pointless

franzans too old ( we need to start competing, not try and win the cup within 2 years)

Honestly, there's nothing i want from detroit. I would rather have Bogosian then any reasonable collection of assets from detroit (as in, the amount of assets it would take would leave wings fans screaming and yelling about how he isn't worth it - i agree, he's not worth it, but that's what i would want.)

this is why there's no trade. Other teams have a "reasonable collection of assets" that i would trade bogo for, but for detroit it would take more then they'd be realistically willing to pay.

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01-17-2013, 01:53 PM
  #208
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For those who are absent minded or just stubborn, here is Bogosian's life story:

Quote:
Originally Posted by garret9 View Post
Bogosian is a fan favourite here and unlike some tough minutes fan favourites (GST) he's actually pretty good at his job.

Even Strength and PP Production
YEARGPESTOI/60ESP/60ESGESAPPTOI/60PPP/60PPGPPASHGSHA
2008 4714.62 1.13 6 07 1.12 5.70 2 310
2009 8116.68 0.67 6 09 1.67 2.66 3 311
2010 7117.57 0.53 5 08 1.93 1.31 0 400
2011 6517.25 1.12 4 19 2.40 2.69 1 600
Like a lot of us already knew, Bogosian had a fantastic rookie season and then started to pitter off offensively... but, last season he brought it back!

Even Strength Advance Stats
YEARRelQoCOZSRelCorsiCorsiG/60A1/60P/60SAon/60SH%
2008 0.048 43.6 6.9-4.28 0.52 0.17 1.13 30.8 10.0
2009 0.290 44.7 -1.6-3.42 0.27 0.09 0.67 31.8 06.5
2010 0.556 47.9 -8.8-6.98 0.19 0.05 0.53 30.4 03.2
2011 0.591 49.4 -2.7-0.91 0.21 0.32 1.12 27.0 03.3
Again, pretty much what we already knew:
2008: Bogosian's rookie year looks pretty good. He plays slightly sheltered on a weak team and thanks to some oddly high for a defensemen shooting percentage plus some offensive prowess, Bogosian posts some fantastic offensive numbers.
2009: Next year he get's lined up against tougher competition. His offensive and defensive numbers stumble... but due to his #GP going up his point totals improve so he looks pretty good in the boxcar stats categories.
2010: Next step in competition levels and crash. Bogosian increases his shots on goal per game (barely) but nothing else works out. Fans start crying bust.
2011: Bogosian finds a second home in Winnipeg; Huddy goes over hours and hours of footage continuously and Bogosian takes a huge step forward offensively posting similar numbers as 2008 but without a crazy high shooting percentage. His defensive abilities improve as he almost beats tough matchups (-0.91 Corsi) which is impressive even if he isn't beating them (will show further down) and decreases shots against to 27.0 per 60 mins (around what I wish all the Jets' were, except Hainsey and Enstrom who posted ~26.0).


Bogosian is really a top notch defenseman, and took a huge step towards becoming a legit #1 all minutes man. The only thing standing in his way is Byfuglien, and he's a big thing to move out of the way. Now I'm a big fan of keeping Byfuglien with Enstrom, for the time being. But, it's of my opinion that one day Byfuglien will regress (as all players do) and it may be as early as the next 2-3 years due to his knees and weight. Jets' are in a nice position where they already have Byfuglien's replacement ready and Bogosian's tough minutes role in the cupboard (Trouba). I already showed Bogosian's With CF/GF to show how Hainsey was Bogosian's best tough minutes second pairing guy... but I want to also show how in offensive minutes he did well with Enstrom:

2011-12 Bogosian with:
PartnerTOI CF% GF% +/-
Stuart 369 0.466 0.433 -4
Hainsey 272 0.496 0.609 +5
Oduya 247 0.499 0.222 -10
Enstrom 97 0.556 0.667 +3
Now keep in mind that his TOI was small with Enstrom so there could be a large effect with variance, but it's not bad at all. Their CF% (which tends to be more stable than GF% and better correlated for long-term success) is just barely under Enstrom-Byfuglien. Remember, that Bogosian was playing a different role when with Enstrom than with Stuart, Hainsey and Oduya.


Bogo Relative to His Peers:
Now I promised to show how even though Bogosian isn't beating tough minutes he's still doing pretty dang good. I'm going to go a bit statsy here.
Using Behindthenet.com (where I get probably 3/4 of my info and managed by a former Winnipeger) I brought up a list of defensemen who played more than 30 games, faced tough competition (at least 0.500 RelCorsiQoC) and had started in the Dzone more than Ozone (0-49.9 OZS)... 53 defensemen come up... Here's his placement in the 53 (and Hainsey's)
NameRelCorsiCorsiG/60A1/60P/60SAon/60
Bogosian 32 17 14 11 04 27
Hainsey 38 23 53 16 45 19
Bogosian had the 17th best Corsi of tough minute Dman. Now some of it is padded with Ozone starts with Enstrom when Buff was injured... but it's still impressive... #16 was Shea Webber! and just for Holden Rob Suderi was #6 <EDIT> Now of course those two do have a bit tougher minutes because the Jets spread the tough matchups between the first and second pairing while those ones take it all </EDIT
What's even more impressive is Bogosian's offensive numbers with these tough minutes. He was 4th in pts/min. Now some of it is padded with a lot of secondary assists, but when you think that Bogosian posted his lowest sh% yet, it may be a wash.


Summary
Are you stoked for when he returns without a chronic bad wrist? I 'effing am!!
If too long and you don't want to read:
*Bogosian's plus/minus would have been in the positives while playing tough minutes had he been continuously with Hainsey instead of Stuart
*of guys with defensive shutdown role Bogosian had the 4th best points per a min in the entire league
*of guys that had defensive shutdown role Bogosian was able to have the 17th best Corsi
... this is spent with the major part of his minutes being with Mark Stuart who would range a 5-7 on most NHL teams defense...

Now these Det guys may be the most proven a prospect can be without being NHL proven... They aren't quite tracking in the same level/way.

Jets future IMO is either:

Kane - AA - Wheeler
Ladd - Burmistrov/Scheifele - Little

Enstrom - Byfuglien
Trouba - Bogosian

or

Kane - AA - Wheeler
Ladd - Burmistrov/Scheifele - Little

Enstrom - Bogosian
BB - Trouba


Last edited by garret9: 01-17-2013 at 02:00 PM.
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Old
01-17-2013, 01:55 PM
  #209
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Quote:
Originally Posted by garret9 View Post
For those who are absent minded or just stubborn, here is Bogosian's life story:
get that black magic out of here garret.

He's a minus player and a bum!

His nhl.com stats are all I need to see to establish his true market value and assure you winnipeg fans are out of line




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01-17-2013, 01:55 PM
  #210
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyborg Yzerman View Post
Ericsson has looked good in camp this year, I don't recall anyone referring to him as a Norris candidate of any kind. He'll never be a top pairing defenseman, and he may as well never be a top 4 pairing defenseman, but he may be a very serviceable 5/6 guy for his career.
I just remembered that being tossed around before he made the team full time and showed that he wasn't really ready for quality NHL duty. I've also heard that he'd been doing better in camp, which is an unpleasant surprise. Good for y'all, tho.

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Originally Posted by Cyborg Yzerman View Post
We may not have another Datsyuk or Zetterberg in the system, but Nyquist and Jarnkrok especially have first line player upside at the very least.(Does this serve as a proclivity to avoid doom? Obviously that's not a guarantee.)
Very true, and I agree with that assessment of their upside. I'm just more disdainful of folks assuming it's a guarantee for no better reason than "they play for the Red Wings". Given that, for example, Atkinson is looking similarly awesome down here and yet he apparently only exists in the minds of Jackets fans and Darryl Dobbs, it can... get a little trying.

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Originally Posted by Cyborg Yzerman View Post
As for your comments about the fanbase, this is generally the nature of teams that are good or have been good. You have band wagon nut cases, and then you have actual, sensible fans. Suffice to say, it's a tumultuous time for the Red Wings.
Believe me when I say it's equally true of teams that are bad or have been bad.

The existence of the crazy is unchanged and constant. It's merely the nature of the crazy that is different.

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01-17-2013, 01:58 PM
  #211
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Originally Posted by Grind View Post
honestly its pointless

franzans too old ( we need to start competing, not try and win the cup within 2 years)

Honestly, there's nothing i want from detroit. I would rather have Bogosian then any reasonable collection of assets from detroit (as in, the amount of assets it would take would leave wings fans screaming and yelling about how he isn't worth it - i agree, he's not worth it, but that's what i would want.)

this is why there's no trade. Other teams have a "reasonable collection of assets" that i would trade bogo for, but for detroit it would take more then they'd be realistically willing to pay.
I figured as such. Understandable.

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01-17-2013, 02:01 PM
  #212
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Originally Posted by Cyborg Yzerman View Post
Is this the kind of value Jets fans are looking for? I'm not saying this is what Detroit would or will offer, nor am I saying I would want to give this up. I'm just trying to get a sense of what Jets fans want for Bogosian.

Nyquist, Ouellet, Helm, and a second? First?
Probably the easiest way to put it is if Bogosian's leaving at this point in time, it needs to be for another young player that is already 100% NHL proven and has first line/top pairing, All-Star potential.

Detroit simply doesn't have players like that floating around.

With their prospect depth Detroit could probably get a player similar to Bogosian from another team, but the Jets just can't do it that way.

If a year from now Brendan Smith's proven he can play 22+ high quality NHL minutes a night, we can talk.

If a year from now Nyquist has proven he's a legit 55+ point NHL 2nd liner, we can talk.

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01-17-2013, 02:02 PM
  #213
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Originally Posted by Viqsi View Post
I just remembered that being tossed around before he made the team full time and showed that he wasn't really ready for quality NHL duty. I've also heard that he'd been doing better in camp, which is an unpleasant surprise. Good for y'all, tho.



Very true, and I agree with that assessment of their upside. I'm just more disdainful of folks assuming it's a guarantee for no better reason than "they play for the Red Wings". Given that, for example, Atkinson is looking similarly awesome down here and yet he apparently only exists in the minds of Jackets fans and Darryl Dobbs, it can... get a little trying.



Believe me when I say it's equally true of teams that are bad or have been bad.

The existence of the crazy is unchanged and constant. It's merely the nature of the crazy that is different.
I remember there were Blue Jackets fans that thought Jiri Novotny could be a legitimate center for Nash. I personally think the problem with Columbus has been developing talent rather than drafting. I truly hope Atkinson develops accordingly. I don't think he's getting enough recognition as a Calder candidate.(Assuming that he can; is still eligible.) But I understand how trying it can be dealing with the worst kind of Red Wing fans.


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01-17-2013, 02:07 PM
  #214
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Originally Posted by Cyborg Yzerman View Post
I remember there were Blue Jackets fans that thought Jiri Novotny could be a legitimate center for Nash. I personally think the problem with Columbus has been developing talent rather than drafting. I truly hope Atkinson develops accordingly. I don't think he's getting enough recognition as a Calder candidate.(Assuming that he can is still eligible.) But I understand how trying it can be dealing with the worst kind of Red Wing fans.
He's not eligible.

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01-17-2013, 02:12 PM
  #215
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I can't see the Jets letting Bogosian go. Wings starting point would be a blue chip prospect and a 1st round pick

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01-17-2013, 02:13 PM
  #216
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Originally Posted by Cyborg Yzerman View Post
Ericsson has looked good in camp this year, I don't recall anyone referring to him as a Norris candidate of any kind. He'll never be a top pairing defenseman, and he may as well never be a top 4 pairing defenseman, but he may be a very serviceable 5/6 guy for his career. We may not have another Datsyuk or Zetterberg in the system, but Nyquist and Jarnkrok especially have first line player upside at the very least.(Does this serve as a proclivity to avoid doom? Obviously that's not a guarantee.) As for your comments about the fanbase, this is generally the nature of teams that are good or have been good. You have band wagon nut cases, and then you have actual, sensible fans. Suffice to say, it's a tumultuous time for the Red Wings.
Bob McKenzie would be the one that famously did that, big swing and a miss there. But he has come back to where I can see the hope around him being a very solid stay at home guy in a top 4.

Wings fans might be unrealistic but a lot of the people posting the Wings prospects will never amount to anything especially a division rival fan are on the other end of hoping they won't hit. They have a ton of bullets not all of them need to hit.

This is as deep as the system has been since the late 80s/early 90's. That doesn't mean they will all be superstars, it also doesn't mean they won't be. That is the nature of prospects, and people are always going to see the best in them. Especially since Detroit doesn't rush any of them into failure, the signs generally aren't there to get overly upset with the guys we have in our systems.

It is funny from a Columbus fan that I have seen argue that Columbus could finish above the Wings or challenge for things because of this new and improved defense to call us overly optimistic about our prospects. That is doing the same thing, overlooking weaknesses but with the actual current NHL roster instead of projections looking forward. Every fan wants what is best for their team and there is plenty of reason for Wings fans to talk up Jarnkrok, Nyquist and Smith. They all have terrific talent and have impressed at the professional level already.

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01-17-2013, 02:18 PM
  #217
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Very true, and I agree with that assessment of their upside. I'm just more disdainful of folks assuming it's a guarantee for no better reason than "they play for the Red Wings". Given that, for example, Atkinson is looking similarly awesome down here and yet he apparently only exists in the minds of Jackets fans and Darryl Dobbs, it can... get a little trying.
Atkinson is a stud actually if you were to pick another prospect that is like Nyquist it might be him. Gus is a little bigger, but both shifty dynamic offensive players that have a knack for producing.

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01-17-2013, 02:24 PM
  #218
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Originally Posted by almostawake View Post
If a year from now Brendan Smith's proven he can play 22+ high quality NHL minutes a night, we can talk.

If a year from now Nyquist has proven he's a legit 55+ point NHL 2nd liner, we can talk.
That ship will likely have sailed if you wait for that. Much like the price for Bogosian has gone up considerably from when the Wings wanted him in Atlanta.

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01-17-2013, 02:31 PM
  #219
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I'd say Nyquist, Kindl, and a 1st for Bogo.

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01-17-2013, 02:46 PM
  #220
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Likely upside is Filppula lite imo.. Max upside is Filppula. Assuming Flip is around 65-70 point player for his prime.
Somewhere between Jiri Hudler, Alex Tangauy and Patrick Kane. Not sure he quite has Kane Goal Scoring, and he is quite a bit better defensively than Hudler, but that kind of player. Playmaking winger very slippery. I would say his upside is a cross between Filppula and Kane. (will put up points like Filp, probably play more like Kane).

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01-17-2013, 03:48 PM
  #221
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well i get your concern, he is worth the moon and a kings ransom to winnipeg.
Fine. By that logic, Nyquist is the same to us and not worth trading unless we get the moon and a kings ransom in return. You see how ridiculous this sounds? I get you all love him. It'll take more than that to price him out of anyone's range. In any case, I'm not interested anymore in Bogosian discussion anymore. This is ridiculous.


Quote:
Also, it goes beyond the one good season. Its seeing how he developed over that season, it's watching 82 games and seeing rapid progression, not looking at boxcars and the absolutely worthless stat that is +/-. He has all the tools and is finally starting to put it together.
He developed over a season. Cool. Do it again, and maybe I'll acknowledge he's worth more.


Quote:
I can't expect people who haven't watched him a lot to get this, but he praised heaped on him by the organization, his coaches, and that he's heaped on the organization and the city has made him Winnipegs new Teemu essentially. He's not a super star player, but most of us see him as having that as a very attainable future for him. It's also that he's a perfect fit in absolutely every sense of the word with the organization- that counts for something.
What else is he supposed to say? "I hate the city and don't wanna be here, the fans are obnoxiously loud and I hate the cold?" It's bad on your image if you have no reason to hate on the organization or the fans/city. Tons of players do that when they're part of a classy organization and have classy fans. If you priced people based upon their "love of the organization and fans" there would be very few trades or FA signings than there are today because they'd price themselves out of everyone's range.


Quote:
if were basing this off what there done we have: a #3 dman, who looks to have the potential of a top pairing/star d man for an AHL (very good one) forward who looks to have the potential of a first line forward.
Except he hasn't demonstrated he is a number one, and Nyquist has been given a snowball's chance in a volcano to get proper role and playing time on the Wing's roster. So basically, your pricing yourself out of our range based on potential, and then going around saying we can't accept this package because Nyquist only has potential. Hypocrite.


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Originally Posted by bhay1987 View Post
JmanWingsFan with the attempted comeback FTL...

How could a young defenseman that was once considered 1A/1B with Doughty POSSIBLY garner that much of an expected return?! :s. ... If you lost a superstar to retirement and were looking for a future star to replace him, perhaps?
Except Bogosian has done nothing anywhere near what Doughty has done. He hasn't done anything to exhibit he IS a superstar. If that's how you price things then you're not going to get business done. Ever.

Quote:
Could it be that maybe, while you watched the Wings, and we watched the Jets, he actually started playing like he deserved to be drafted as high as he was?
He hasn't come anywhere close to matching 3rd overall.
Feel free to value Bogo as a #3 defenseman. Just think for a second WHY a) Detroit
Quote:
would be inquiring about him (DET columnist sparked the speculation) and b) why Winnipeg would expect so much for him. While your at it you could ask Tampa or NJ if they are joking when they ask for the moon for Hedman or Larsson.
Did you just compare Bogo to Larsson?


Quote:
Then again, you did thoroughly check his plus/minus...So maybe me and fellow Jets fans are the crazy ones.
I can't be certain what his +/- means. It could mean he's not as good as people think. IIRC, no one on the Jets Dcorps were above + in +/-. It could mean either the system sucks, that the players aren't as good as advertised. It could mean that Bogo's partners always suck and it's never his fault. It could mean vice versa. It could mean everyone deserves a share of the blame for defensive woes.



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Originally Posted by Viqsi View Post
He pretty much has been in general. Not by all Wings fans, tho.
Based on what? He was on pace to break the Griffins rookie scoring record. He's played PPG to near PPG in the minors. He jumped right onto the first line when called up and did not look out of place. If anything, I feel vindicated of the hype around Nyquist and think you're the one acting ridiculous. This is a really good hockey player and I'm excited to see him play. His performance has warranted this hype.

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The Red Wings fanbase is presently getting embarrassed by a vocal subgroup that is unshakably convinced that some subset of Nyquist/Tartar/Jurco/Smith/etc. WILL be the next underrated unheralded NHL superstars a la Datsyuk/Zetterberg and those who don't get that far and Helm WILL be the next irreplacable roleplaying lifers a la Draper/Drake/etc.
Who said this? Who?! I would like to know. I've never said this. Then again, nobody was saying Datsyuk and Zetterberg were the next Datsyuk and Zetterberg either. We don't know. What we do know is that the current crop of Detroit Prospects look incredibly promising, and having seen them personally I agree with this sentiment. I don't make comparisons with prospects to NHLers. I look at them and judge their ability. Again, you are overreacting. It's this sentiment that "Red Wings fans act superior and believe every person they draft is a stud" that ticks me off. I'm convinced sometimes that it's popular to diss the Wings drafting, whether warranted or not, based solely on the fact they did draft Zetterberg and Datsyuk late.

Quote:
for no particular reason beyond "that's just how it works with the Red Wings", and that folks aren't immediately agreeing because of persecution/ignorance/ThanksGaryAss/whatever. The media-driven mystique of "Detroit always drafts stars in late rounds" sure as heck isn't helping (remember when Ericsson was going to be a regular Norris contender?).
Could you blame us when out of nowhere Ericsson pops up and plays out of his mind during the playoffs? We were legitimately excited. When he fell back down to earth, opinions fell with them. The fact that we turned a 7th round pick into a decent defensive Dman is remarkable in and of itself.


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So far, however, manifestations of this insanity have been limited largely to "we're still a Cup contender and the playoffs are a guarantee". More moderate and sensible Wings fans have been unable to address this in any comprehensive fashion, as they've been busy trying to fend off the equally insane vultures from other teams who maniacally insist that this is finally Detroit's time to be a doomed failure because OMG OLD PEOPLE PRESENTED BY AMWAY.
We lost Lidstrom so it's a guarantee we aren't contenders and the playoffs aren't a sure thing? Ok... Same as last time when Yzerman and Shanahan were getting old and left/retire...


Quote:
The "we are NHL gods" nutcases have taken an unprecedented step with this one, though. It's rather painful to see. I'd feel bad for the reasonable Wings fans, except, well, they're Wings fans.
It's apparent you've never had high expectations for a prospect before. I'm also positive you haven't payed much attention to the Wings outside of their playoff appearances and "OMG LIDSTROM RETIRED".

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Old
01-17-2013, 03:56 PM
  #222
WingedWheel1987
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Bogo is being overrated, but would be the 2nd best d-man on the team. Unfortunately the Wings dont have enough assets to get him where it wouldnt deplete their pool of prospects with a 5% chance of being useful.

The majority of the Wings prospects havent done anything so they are being given the benefit of the doubt which is ridiculous. No GM is going to take Nyquist and say, "ohhhh he was drafted by the Wings, lets ignore how he hasnt done anything in the NHL yet."

It sucks for Wings fans, but it is what it is.

Smith is the only real high end prospect, and the Wings cant trade him.

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01-17-2013, 04:26 PM
  #223
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I look at all the red wings trade proposals, and it seems our fans just want to steal other teams high quality (HALF-proven) players by giving them our UNPROVEN players.

Here is a quick few reasons why Detroit really is in no position to "TRADE" for new players this year:

1) We really only have 4 servicable top 6 players on the team (Dats, Zett, Franzen and Filppula)

(We have hired some old guys to look pretty for a while, but they will be gone very soon (Bert, Samuelson).

So bottom line, we are weak in the number of forwards we have.

2) We have very few legit NHL defensmen, let alone anyone who is really good
-Kronwall is good,
Quincey, White are like #4/#5 guys
Ericson, Kindl, Coliacovo are #6 guys

So bottom line, we are even weaker on Defense

3) Our NHL ready prospects to fill the holes listed above are completely unproven, but we need them all now:

D. Brunner, G. Nyquist, B. Smith (If these guys all magically perform as two top 6 forwards and one top 2 defensmen, then we still have an OK team)

(We really need these guys to work out) - Thus the odds of them being traded are about Zero for this year.

All our other prospects basically will be lucky to make the NHL period LOL.
Oh there are some names in there that people really like.
But they are really BOOM or BUST guys.

I.E. They become a Hudler/Filppula/Franzen type OR... they become nobody's and never make the team.

If our prospects fail, Detroit starts missing the playoffs. If they start playing really well, maybe we can sign a few UFA's to keep the team strong and extend our streak of having a good team.

The point is our organization is no longer "deep". Our true fans know the weak points, and we hope for Nyquist and Smith to really perform. They are definitely ready to show it IF they got it.

GL DRW

(Honestly, whoever we would give up to get Bogo, would weaken our team, more than strengthen it, because we would have to give up multiple pieces for one, and we are not deep enough)

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01-17-2013, 04:31 PM
  #224
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Originally Posted by JmanWingsFan View Post
Fine. By that logic, Nyquist is the same to us and not worth trading unless we get the moon and a kings ransom in return. You see how ridiculous this sounds?
That doesn't sound ridiculous to me if in fact, nyquist is essentially pegged as the player your gm plans to build your forward core around-no, that doesn't sound ridiculous at all.

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I get you all love him. It'll take more than that to price him out of anyone's range. In any case, I'm not interested anymore in Bogosian discussion anymore. This is ridiculous.
but theres more...?

All i was trying to point out was, based off the information available, i can understand why you do not understand why we're asking what we are asking or why we're hesitent to trade him. Afterall this was started by detroit asking for bogosian, not winnipeg asking for nyquist.

i'm sorry i apparently struck a nerve...

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He developed over a season. Cool. Do it again, and maybe I'll acknowledge he's worth more.
and once nyquist has a reasonable rookie campaign i'll do the same. sound fair?

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What else is he supposed to say? "I hate the city and don't wanna be here, the fans are obnoxiously loud and I hate the cold?" It's bad on your image if you have no reason to hate on the organization or the fans/city. Tons of players do that when they're part of a classy organization and have classy fans. If you priced people based upon their "love of the organization and fans" there would be very few trades or FA signings than there are today because they'd price themselves out of everyone's range.
I would guess haven't seen the interviews or read the quotes. It's not that he says these things, it's the way the two parties talk about eachother. It's definitly beyond the usual "oh yah i love this place, great organization, blah blah blah". Bogosian is as close to an untouchable on this roster as their is. I don't understand why this is so hard to grasp. Sometimes GM's refuse "good hockey trades" due to the "intangibles" of the situation- that's really all we're talking about here.

Lidstrom was the heart and soul of your franchise. If lidstroms value was X there's no way you would accept X for him, it would be X +. Same thing.

Quote:
Except he hasn't demonstrated he is a number one, and Nyquist has been given a snowball's chance in a volcano to get proper role and playing time on the Wing's roster. So basically, your pricing yourself out of our range based on potential, and then going around saying we can't accept this package because Nyquist only has potential. Hypocrite.
.
Its not hypocritical- these are two different situations as you've stated. i'm sorry you've managed misconstrue it that way. Bogo's a number three D now. thats not potential- thats what he was last season. Nyquist was an ahl player last season. thats not up to interpretation, he played in the AHL. Until we see him play in the NHL you cannot unequivocally say he's anymore then that. So in reality you have a player who played last season in the ahl who projects as being in the top echelon of talent for his position on his team (top 3 forward on a team). You also have a player who played in the NHL last season, AS a top 3 player in his position, and projects as being in the top echelon of talent at his position in his team (top pairing d).

I'm not trying to belittle you, or be hypocritical, or tell you nyquist sucks. Apparently i struck a nerve by not agreeing that player in ahl projecting as top line = top 3 d in nhl projecting as top pair.


Nyquist may very well become a 70+ point forward, but he wasn't one last year. As per garrets advanced stats, and anyone that watched 20 + jets games, last year Bogosian was a very good nhl defencemen. He's also younger then nyquist. Maybe some will give nyquist the benefit of the doubt strictly because he's in detroits system, but i'm not going to. There's a far bigger chance nyquist fails at being a top 6 player then bogosian being less then a top 3 d man (as one has achieved this goal in the apst and one hasn't). That's all i'm saying.

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Old
01-17-2013, 04:42 PM
  #225
Grind
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BinCookin View Post
I look at all the red wings trade proposals, and it seems our fans just want to steal other teams high quality (HALF-proven) players by giving them our UNPROVEN players.

Here is a quick few reasons why Detroit really is in no position to "TRADE" for new players this year:

1) We really only have 4 servicable top 6 players on the team (Dats, Zett, Franzen and Filppula)

(We have hired some old guys to look pretty for a while, but they will be gone very soon (Bert, Samuelson).

So bottom line, we are weak in the number of forwards we have.

2) We have very few legit NHL defensmen, let alone anyone who is really good
-Kronwall is good,
Quincey, White are like #4/#5 guys
Ericson, Kindl, Coliacovo are #6 guys

So bottom line, we are even weaker on Defense

3) Our NHL ready prospects to fill the holes listed above are completely unproven, but we need them all now:

D. Brunner, G. Nyquist, B. Smith (If these guys all magically perform as two top 6 forwards and one top 2 defensmen, then we still have an OK team)

(We really need these guys to work out) - Thus the odds of them being traded are about Zero for this year.

All our other prospects basically will be lucky to make the NHL period LOL.
Oh there are some names in there that people really like.
But they are really BOOM or BUST guys.

I.E. They become a Hudler/Filppula/Franzen type OR... they become nobody's and never make the team.

If our prospects fail, Detroit starts missing the playoffs. If they start playing really well, maybe we can sign a few UFA's to keep the team strong and extend our streak of having a good team.

The point is our organization is no longer "deep". Our true fans know the weak points, and we hope for Nyquist and Smith to really perform. They are definitely ready to show it IF they got it.

GL DRW

(Honestly, whoever we would give up to get Bogo, would weaken our team, more than strengthen it, because we would have to give up multiple pieces for one, and we are not deep enough)
this is an extrodinarily rational post.

thank you sir. You and the one above are the two most realistic interpretations of the Red Wings i have read on hear in a long, long time.

especially that first sentance, that is bang on.

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