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01-17-2013, 07:08 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by Frk It View Post
Hahahahahaha. I forgot that was completely riding on Bert and Sammy's shoulders.
Remove Bertuzzi and Red Wings lose 6 points. That puts them at about 96 points last season. Next, Samulesson was on pace to score about 24 goals and 50 points last season (give or take), many of which that comes from the PP....

So, ummm, yeah, the risk of not making the playoffs is much higher if Detroit doesn't have Sammy and Bert for those aforementioned critical situations....

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01-17-2013, 07:17 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by HTT3 View Post
Remove Bertuzzi and Red Wings lose 6 points. That puts them at about 96 points last season. Next, Samulesson was on pace to score about 24 goals and 50 points last season (give or take), many of which that comes from the PP....

So, ummm, yeah, Detroit may not make the playoffs without Sammy and Bert....
So you don't care that Bertuzzi couldn't even crack 40 points last year playing a lot of minutes with Datsyuk? Nyquist would easily out-produce Bertuzzi in the same role, then maybe we don't even need to go to overtime in those games.

Bertuzzi is like Tebow, no one cares if he does nothing for the first 3/4 of the game, as long as he pulls something out of his ass at the end lol.

Let me ask you something, Nyquist has produced at every level of hockey he has ever played at, you don't think he could match the production of these guys? These are 36 and 39 year old players who are 30-40 point players.

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01-17-2013, 07:32 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Frk It View Post
So you don't care that Bertuzzi couldn't even crack 40 points last year playing a lot of minutes with Datsyuk? Nyquist would easily out-produce Bertuzzi in the same role, then maybe we don't even need to go to overtime in those games.

Bertuzzi is like Tebow, no one cares if he does nothing for the first 3/4 of the game, as long as he pulls something out of his ass at the end lol.

Let me ask you something, Nyquist has produced at every level of hockey he has ever played at, you don't think he could match the production of these guys? These are 36 and 39 year old players who are 30-40 point players.
You're missing the point, the question isn't can "Nyquist out produce Bertuzzi?", because Brunner will be playing in the top 6. If Brunner is a flop, then he gets waived and Nyquist will get his chance.

In regards to Bertuzzi, Nyquist isn't a shoot out specialist (yet) that helps Wings get that extra point.

Nyquist is still undersized and is soft on the puck in the NHL level. He should use this year to put on some more muscle.

Right now, I think Brunner is more deserving for the top 6 role. He has awesome chemistry with Zetterberg and isn't afraid to go in the dirty areas. Perhaps Franzen can learn a thing or two from Brunner

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01-17-2013, 07:32 PM
  #79
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Nyquist would easily out-produce Bertuzzi in the same role, then maybe we don't even need to go to overtime in those games.
That's quite the hypothetical leap of faith.

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01-17-2013, 07:49 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Vladdy84 View Post
That's quite the hypothetical leap of faith.
I'd call it very likely.

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01-17-2013, 07:51 PM
  #81
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I'd call it very likely.
I love Gustavo. But as of right now, he's just a tweener with good speed and slick moves.

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01-17-2013, 07:56 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by HTT3 View Post

Nyquist is still undersized and is soft on the puck in the NHL level. He should use this year to put on some more muscle.
He has put on muscle, and he has improved in this area. Datsyuk was really about the same size as Gus when he came over, but he could still play the the NHL level because he is so shifty and has great awareness. Gus is very similar in that regard, and I really do not think it would be a huge problem for him, having high-end talent can really negate those things.

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01-17-2013, 08:01 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Frk It View Post
He has put on muscle, and he has improved in this area. Datsyuk was really about the same size as Gus when he came over, but he could still play the the NHL level because he is so shifty and has great awareness. Gus is very similar in that regard, and I really do not think it would be a huge problem for him, having high-end talent can really negate those things.
Right now, at the NHL level, Nyquist is most effective when he is playing with someone who can create space for him. That person is Datsyuk.

Who is Babcock bumping off the first line to play Nyquist?

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01-17-2013, 08:13 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by HTT3 View Post
Right now, at the NHL level, Nyquist is most effective when he is playing with someone who can create space for him. That person is Datsyuk.

Who is Babcock bumping off the first line to play Nyquist?
I don't think Nyquist's success in the NHL is dependent on him playing with Datsyuk. He's good on the puck, a shifty skater, can make some plays and finish as well. He'd do well on the 2nd line playing with Flip and Franzen, IMO. And if Babcock ever went to D/Z/Flip centering the first 3 lines, Gus could play with any of them.

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01-17-2013, 08:54 PM
  #85
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People keep saying that Nyquist and Tatar will be on the Wings for sure next year.

But Sammy and Bert are both signed through next season. Even if we lose Cleary that still leaves one guy rotting in the minors.

And losing Cleary isn't even a sure thing, he's only 34. That's like 28 in Holland years.

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01-17-2013, 09:05 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by icKx View Post
People keep saying that Nyquist and Tatar will be on the Wings for sure next year.

But Sammy and Bert are both signed through next season. Even if we lose Cleary that still leaves one guy rotting in the minors.

And losing Cleary isn't even a sure thing, he's only 34. That's like 28 in Holland years.
It's called a cap compliance buyout. May not be economic, but then again we don't have any problem contracts. So screw economic use.

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01-17-2013, 09:08 PM
  #87
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We all like Nyquist.

Is it possible Tatar just isn't good enough to beat out old man samuelsson?
If he can't earn the spot, then whats the point.

I mean you could just put them in there like they do in Toronto (bozak, grabo, kuli)

Everyone thinks kulemin is ok with his 28 pts last season.

I am pretty sure Tatar could get 28 pts. And If we dont like him, we can trade him.

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01-17-2013, 09:44 PM
  #88
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Maybe he foresaw the lockout and decided to lock up a lot of depth, considering the injuries that are mounting league wide. Also the fact these guys are veterans makes it easier to transition to post-Lidstrom era with a more calm and collected group instead of throwing youngsters into the fire and tell them "K guys, Lidstrom's gone have at it."

Next, you keep Tatar and Nyquist in Grand Rapids and keep them at their current playing time and don't throw them completely out of routine with a week of training camp and then an all out blitz to the finish line. Next year, the UFA departures allow us to throw Tatar and Nyquist into major roles. I say that's decent asset management, if you ask me.
Nyquist should already have a year of NHL player under his belt. Mursak should have had a couple years in by now. Tatar should be starting the season with the Wings.

Our callups could be Ferraro, Sheahan and Andersson.

It makes no sense to bury your prospects in favor of mediocre depth veterans -- especially when you're not even confident your mediocre depth veterans will help you win.


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01-18-2013, 12:08 AM
  #89
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Originally Posted by WingedWheel1987 View Post
Yeah, Ken Holland is keeping them locked up to save money so when they turn into super stars, they will be locked into cheap contracts because their ELC's are burned up.

I do admire your creativity on why Ken Holland is not playing the prospects.

Tatar is 22
Nyquist is 23

Smith is 23 almost 24.

Absolutely insane that they are still going to rot in the AHL (minus Smith) even after failing to acquire anyone of substance. Nyquist could have played a ton of minutes in the NHL if Holland didnt sign garbage like Sammy.

Tatar will probably never play in the NHL with the Detroit Red Wings on a full time basis. There are another wave of prospects coming too. Sink or swim time. You give Tatar a shot instead of bums like Bert, Cleary, and ESPECIALLY Sammy.
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Nyquist should already have a year of NHL player under his belt. Mursak should have had a couple years in by now. Tatar should be starting the season with the Wings.

Our callups could be Ferraro, Sheahan and Andersson.

It makes no sense to bury your prospects in favor of mediocre depth veterans -- especially when you're not even confidence your mediocre depth veterans will help you win.
Amen. This says it perfectly. To lose out on someone like Tatar because they wouldn't even give him the time of day, opting instead to give roster spots to the likes of Samuelsson, is crazy.

If the Wings miss the playoffs, it isn't due to "parity", it's due to a number of disastrous off-seasons, poor use of cap space and not developing talent. We'll see though...

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01-18-2013, 03:05 AM
  #90
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Frankly, I'd be okay with the prospect of missing the playoffs if it means giving Tatar and Nyquist some tome to develop in exchange for having Bertuzzi and Sammy help us squeeze into a 6-8 spot and then promptly lose in the first or possibly second round. These guys need experience.

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01-18-2013, 04:17 AM
  #91
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Its pretty clear who watches the NHL and who watches only Wings games. Don't waste your breath, let these people inform themselves or live in ignorance. Semin would've changed a lot of tunes on this forum if he was a Wing this season.
I don't have any inside information, but seems like not too many teams had interest in Semin. You have to think there was a reason why GMs were avoiding him. Detroit wasn't the only team that could use top 6 talent on a short contract...

My thoughts are if teams are avoiding him, then there must be some issues with him. If it is character issue, then maybe Holland made the right decision by not bringing him to the organization where we have some kids coming up soon.

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01-18-2013, 04:31 AM
  #92
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Originally Posted by WingedWheel1987 View Post
Parity is an excuse by Holland to promote his do nothing approach. Everybody else being mediocre doesnt mean it's OK for your team to be mediocre too. Of course this attitude is completely wrong, and will result in another 1st round exit or no playoffs at all.

If Dean Lombardi used the Ken Holland GM playbook, the Kings would have not won the cup.

Unfortunately the Kings winning the cup allows GM's like Holland to preach to the uninformed fans that the Wings are legit contenders. Once you actually analyze the Kings situation for two seconds, you realize that the Kings winning the cup was a four year build up that culminated in one final trade that gave the Kings a complete team and not a matter of just getting in and getting hot.

Insanity is doing the same thing over again and expecting a different result.
Dustin Brown = 13th overall
Anze Kopitar = 11th overall
Drew Doughty = 2nd overall

Looks to me like the Kings tanked for many years to be in the rare situation they are in. If Holland tanked for a decade for those picks, would you be happier?

If Holland's insanity = 3 Stanley cups and multiple SCF appearances, then I accept his "insanity". I'm sure Dean Lombardi wishes he could be that "insane" to have portfolio like that. Speaking of 'portfolio' how many times has Dean Lombardi been fired?

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01-18-2013, 09:31 AM
  #93
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Originally Posted by HTT3 View Post
I don't have any inside information, but seems like not too many teams had interest in Semin. You have to think there was a reason why GMs were avoiding him. Detroit wasn't the only team that could use top 6 talent on a short contract...

My thoughts are if teams are avoiding him, then there must be some issues with him. If it is character issue, then maybe Holland made the right decision by not bringing him to the organization where we have some kids coming up soon.
I agree. I think the Wings tend to acquire certain personality types regardless of talent. Character can trump talent in some cases. I also think if the kids could earn a roster spot they would get one. Holland and Babs aren't stupid. I think Gus and Tatar will likely put on some muscle and get used to the grind of a long season while in the AHL. They will both get call ups this year and if they perform they will stay. Nothing wrong with earning a spot.

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01-18-2013, 09:32 AM
  #94
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Originally Posted by HTT3 View Post
Dustin Brown = 13th overall
Anze Kopitar = 11th overall
Drew Doughty = 2nd overall

Looks to me like the Kings tanked for many years to be in the rare situation they are in. If Holland tanked for a decade for those picks, would you be happier?

If Holland's insanity = 3 Stanley cups and multiple SCF appearances, then I accept his "insanity". I'm sure Dean Lombardi wishes he could be that "insane" to have portfolio like that. Speaking of 'portfolio' how many times has Dean Lombardi been fired?
Holland's insanity = 4 Cups. The Kings were a fluke IMO. In a parity league fluke = champion.

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01-18-2013, 09:46 AM
  #95
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Holland's insanity = 4 Cups. The Kings were a fluke IMO. In a parity league fluke = champion.
He wasn't the GM for the first one, unless I'm mistaken.

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01-18-2013, 09:49 AM
  #96
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Originally Posted by HTT3 View Post
Dustin Brown = 13th overall
Anze Kopitar = 11th overall
Drew Doughty = 2nd overall

Looks to me like the Kings tanked for many years to be in the rare situation they are in. If Holland tanked for a decade for those picks, would you be happier?

If Holland's insanity = 3 Stanley cups and multiple SCF appearances, then I accept his "insanity". I'm sure Dean Lombardi wishes he could be that "insane" to have portfolio like that. Speaking of 'portfolio' how many times has Dean Lombardi been fired?
You seem to be missing the point I'm trying to get at. Holland's insanity is what he has been doing the past four years. Making minor changes to a roster in the hopes that its good enough to win a cup. It has failed every time and the Wings have gotten progressively worse.

He turned a cup contending roster into a maybe playoff team that is built to lose in the 1st round by adding players like Samuelsson and Quincey to replace Hossa and Lidstrom.

I have already conceded th Kings rebuilt through sucking, but their Cup win was not a fluke or a dice roll......errr parity.

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01-18-2013, 09:51 AM
  #97
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Originally Posted by HTT3 View Post
Dustin Brown = 13th overall
Anze Kopitar = 11th overall
Drew Doughty = 2nd overall

Looks to me like the Kings tanked for many years to be in the rare situation they are in. If Holland tanked for a decade for those picks, would you be happier?

If Holland's insanity = 3 Stanley cups and multiple SCF appearances, then I accept his "insanity". I'm sure Dean Lombardi wishes he could be that "insane" to have portfolio like that. Speaking of 'portfolio' how many times has Dean Lombardi been fired?
Not to mention Brayden Schenn at 5th overall which was a big reason why they were able to trade for Mike Richards

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01-18-2013, 10:54 AM
  #98
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He wasn't the GM for the first one, unless I'm mistaken.
And he did diddly to the '98 team. Mironov?

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01-18-2013, 11:06 AM
  #99
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Nyquist should already have a year of NHL player under his belt. Mursak should have had a couple years in by now. Tatar should be starting the season with the Wings.

Our callups could be Ferraro, Sheahan and Andersson.

It makes no sense to bury your prospects in favor of mediocre depth veterans -- especially when you're not even confident your mediocre depth veterans will help you win.
I'm not even gonna bother responding to this nonsense anymore.

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01-18-2013, 11:17 AM
  #100
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And he did diddly to the '98 team. Mironov?

- Conn Smythe goalie Mike Vernon left. Holland promoted Osgood to be the starter (that nobody would not believe after the '96 collapse) and signed Kevin Hodgson to back-up.

- Anders Eriksson was promoted to Konstantinov's spot, but Holland traded for right-handed Dmitri Mironov trying to get a Russian 5 back, but Mironov just sucked. So they went back to Eriksson. He did surprisingly well.

- Let Tomas Sandström walk (to Mighty Ducks), promoted Tomas Holmström.

- Signed Brent Gilchrist to get center depth because Fedorov was sitting out until the Nagano Olympics. Gilchrist also get 15 playoff games under his belt when Doug Brown was injured.

- Aaron Ward ended to Bowman's doghouse, Holland traded for Jamie Macoun.

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