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Brian Strait (Claimed by NY Islanders)

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Old
01-17-2013, 08:59 PM
  #151
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Originally Posted by Eyes of Orpik View Post
I agree but here's the thing.

I understand that the D prospects won't get you a solid return unless they pan out. But the exact same thing can be said about a winger prospect. The Penguins draft these defensemen, but they don't think about them being busts, they draft them thinking they will be good NHL defensemen.

It's too early to say they can be traded for established wingers, but the mindset right now is, these guys will develop in the organization and expectations are high.
I'm not really arguing forward prospects value versus defense prospects value. My post is in response to this "we'll just trade them to acquire wingers like we did with Whitney and Goligoski" line of thinking, as though guys like Morrow, Pouliot, etc. could be dealt at any time for legitimate top six winger help. They'll first have to establish themselves as legitimate NHLers before they'll have the value needed to land a Neal or a Kunitz.

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01-17-2013, 09:01 PM
  #152
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Originally Posted by Sidney the Kidney View Post
I'm not really arguing forward prospects value versus defense prospects value. My post is in response to this "we'll just trade them to acquire wingers like we did with Whitney and Goligoski" line of thinking, as though guys like Morrow, Pouliot, etc. could be dealt at any time for legitimate top six winger help. They'll first have to establish themselves as legitimate NHLers before they'll have the value needed to land a Neal or a Kunitz.
That wasn't what I was getting at. I was just asking a question. I know very little about trade value. I enjoy reading on here to learn though!

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01-17-2013, 09:02 PM
  #153
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post



Most advocated trading Lovejoy.
most, are not quite as smart as they seem to think they are. the view from the top of the mt. is not the same as it is in the valley. but there are times when they just get luckey. only time will tell.

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01-17-2013, 09:14 PM
  #154
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Originally Posted by clefty View Post
Everyone in the league has a Ben Lovejoy on their roster, there has to be almost no market for a guy like him. It is funny though when you see people rag on him incessantly about being terrible, then assume suitors are lining up to give us stuff for him.
Well, I wasn't assuming anyone would give up anything for him, even if I don't think he's terrible. He's a serviceable 6 or 7 guy on some NHL team, I just don't think his skillset is what the Pens need.

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Strait's been rather poor in the AHL, and obviously didn't have a good enough week to either jump Lovejoy or a win a battle with Bortuzzo. He'd be on the roster if he was good enough.

Really have a hard time with the progression argument given his sub standard AHL performances this season. He should be shutting that league down by now if he was progressing as well as possible.
I don't think that's necessarily true, given DB's near-compulsive deference to vets.

Strait hasn't been quite as solid this season in the A as he has in previous years, but clearly neither has Despres, and that didn't seem to hamper his chances despite being waiver-eligible. He's still established himself as a top defensive defenseman in the AHL. That seems a lot to give up on for the likes of Lovejoy.

Probably moot since Strait may pass through waivers anyway, just my take.


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01-17-2013, 09:39 PM
  #155
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
Well, I wasn't assuming anyone would give up anything for him, even if I don't think he's terrible. He's a serviceable 6 or 7 guy on some NHL team, I just don't think his skillset is what the Pens need.



I don't think that's necessarily true, given DB's near-compulsive deference to vets.

Strait hasn't been quite as solid this season in the A as he has in previous years, but clearly neither has Despres, and that didn't seem to hamper his chances despite being waiver-eligible. He's still established himself as a top defensive defenseman in the AHL. That seems a lot to give up on for the likes of Lovejoy.

Probably moot since Strait may pass through waivers anyway, just my take.
I just cannot agree that he has established himself as such.

Strait's actually not that different from Lovejoy, really. JB mentions this very thing in his blog today. Strait's not some crease clearing bruiser here, he plays a very basic game the way Lovejoy does, but Lovejoy's a bit better with the puck. This notion that the team has forgone something they need in place of something they don't, I just don't see it. And even if Strait was that, it doesn't grant him automatic passage to the roster if his performances don't match, and they don't, not this season.

Despres is clearly more advanced than Strait, or anyone else on Wilkes-Barre's blue line, and they're situations are simply not the same. Nobody would claim subtracting Despres for Strait makes Pittsburgh a better defense/team.

One can trumpet the rookie/veteran conspiracy theories til the cows come home, but it is extremely difficult to believe that after Strait has underperformed in the AHL this season that he was then able to turn it all around and outplay guys to the point of being one of the eight best defenseman in the organization in the span of a lone week. I just don't buy it.

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01-17-2013, 09:59 PM
  #156
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Shades of Rick Berry!

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01-17-2013, 10:02 PM
  #157
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Oh Jesus, don't even joke about that. That was a nightmare.

I think the main page on the old site forum was almost completely clogged with Rick Berry threads.

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01-17-2013, 10:06 PM
  #158
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Originally Posted by clefty View Post
I just cannot agree that he has established himself as such.

Strait's actually not that different from Lovejoy, really. JB mentions this very thing in his blog today. Strait's not some crease clearing bruiser here, he plays a very basic game the way Lovejoy does, but Lovejoy's a bit better with the puck. This notion that the team has forgone something they need in place of something they don't, I just don't see it. And even if Strait was that, it doesn't grant him automatic passage to the roster if his performances don't match, and they don't, not this season.

Despres is clearly more advanced than Strait, or anyone else on Wilkes-Barre's blue line, and they're situations are simply not the same. Nobody would claim subtracting Despres for Strait makes Pittsburgh a better defense/team.

One can trumpet the rookie/veteran conspiracy theories til the cows come home, but it is extremely difficult to believe that after Strait has underperformed in the AHL this season that he was then able to turn it all around and outplay guys to the point of being one of the eight best defenseman in the organization in the span of a lone week. I just don't buy it.
I think Strait has a bit more of a specialized skillset than Lovejoy, who kind of does everything and does it adequately. He's definitely better when it comes to things like shot blocking, PKing and taking away passing lanes. You could say it evens out when it comes to Lovejoy's advantages in puck handling, but I'd prefer the guy whose game leans more towards the defensive side.

Lovejoy's not terrible, he's just meh. I'm not sure how he really fits in, other than contributing to logjam on the blueline throughout the organization.

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01-17-2013, 10:13 PM
  #159
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Originally Posted by clefty View Post
I just cannot agree that he has established himself as such.
You don't agree that he's established himself as one of the top defensive defensemen in the AHL? To each his own, I guess. Doesn't get much more subjective than ranking defensive defensemen.

Either way, he set a high standard the past few seasons, in spite of a bit of a slip this year.

Quote:
Strait's actually not that different from Lovejoy, really. JB mentions this very thing in his blog today. Strait's not some crease clearing bruiser here, he plays a very basic game the way Lovejoy does, but Lovejoy's a bit better with the puck. This notion that the team has forgone something they need in place of something they don't, I just don't see it. And even if Strait was that, it doesn't grant him automatic passage to the roster if his performances don't match, and they don't, not this season.
Lovejoy's defense hasn't been very reliable at all recently.

Strait outperformed Lovejoy last season, especially when it mattered. People like to argue that Strait looked good only playing 9 minutes a game, but Lovejoy managed to look exploitable playing 10 minutes a game.

Playing solid with limited minutes isn't always as easy as it seems.

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Despres is clearly more advanced than Strait, or anyone else on Wilkes-Barre's blue line, and they're situations are simply not the same. Nobody would claim subtracting Despres for Strait makes Pittsburgh a better defense/team.
That wasn't the issue, though. The issue was how much stock one should put into this AHL season.

Quote:
One can trumpet the rookie/veteran conspiracy theories til the cows come home, but it is extremely difficult to believe that after Strait has so underperformed in the AHL this seaso n that he was then able to turn it all around and outplay guys to the point of being one of the eight best defenseman in the organization in the span of a lone week. I just don't buy it.
I don't think it's a conspiracy. I believe Bylsma gives veterans an awful lot of rope.

Sometimes enough to hang themselves many times over, like when he flat-out refused to temper Martin's minutes even when he was the worst defenseman on the ice.

As for play in the AHL dictating NHL readiness - again, Despres was an AHL scratch just a couple weeks ago, and has garnered a lot more criticism than Strait. You might not like the comparison, but it counters the idea that you have to be bulletproof in the minors this year in order to crack the NHL team.

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01-17-2013, 10:20 PM
  #160
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TSN says there's something like 7 teams interested in Wade Redden. ONE of those clubs would have to be interested in a guy like Strait, one would think. I wouldn't like to bet on a GM's shelf life if they're currently evaluating Redden as a better option than Strait.

Puck-moving defensemen have become grossly overrated. It reminds me of the European forward epidemic that occurred in the early 90s. Some teams got major success with some Euros early on, so suddenly teams started drafting EVERYBODY out of Europe, even the crappy players.

There ARE bad puck-moving defensemen. They do exist.

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01-17-2013, 10:23 PM
  #161
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post

That wasn't the issue, though. The issue was how much stock one should put into this AHL season.

Honestly, if AHL play was the main determining factor, Bortuzzo and Dumoulin would've been the only two defensemen invited to camp outside of the scrimmage.

The kid gloves with vets thing worries me a little bit too, because it's also happening in Wilkes-Barre.

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01-17-2013, 10:42 PM
  #162
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Originally Posted by Zen Arcade View Post
Honestly, if AHL play was the main determining factor, Bortuzzo and Dumoulin would've been the only two defensemen invited to camp outside of the scrimmage.

The kid gloves with vets thing worries me a little bit too, because it's also happening in Wilkes-Barre.
For sure. The thing is...I'm sure we both understand deferring to vets in general. They have a track record so you generally know what to expect from them, and you want the newcomers to fight for spots and ice time.

But there's a point when it starts running contrary to the team's best interest. Even at his best from a couple years ago, I don't think Lovejoy's skillset serves this team better now than Strait's. Considering how poorly that skillset has served us recently when it mattered, I don't see how he's not expendable.

It seems we want PMDs and experience to the detriment of everything else.

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01-17-2013, 10:43 PM
  #163
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
It seems we want PMDs and experience to the detriment of everything else.
This says all.

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01-17-2013, 10:44 PM
  #164
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Originally Posted by Zen Arcade View Post
I think Strait has a bit more of a specialized skillset than Lovejoy, who kind of does everything and does it adequately. He's definitely better when it comes to things like shot blocking, PKing and taking away passing lanes. You could say it evens out when it comes to Lovejoy's advantages in puck handling, but I'd prefer the guy whose game leans more towards the defensive side.

Lovejoy's not terrible, he's just meh. I'm not sure how he really fits in, other than contributing to logjam on the blueline throughout the organization.
But like I said, it's only half the battle. It's no good to be that thing while not producing the results, and there's nothing out there that suggests Strait has done enough to prove himself a better option that the guys the brass have decided to go with.

Look, it's a cutthroat business here, and these calls must be made. And I guarantee you the incumbent with a one-way deal beats out the underperforming newcomer on a two-way every time. Every time.

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01-17-2013, 10:47 PM
  #165
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Originally Posted by clefty View Post
But like I said, it's only half the battle. It's no good to be that thing while not producing the results, and there's nothing out there that suggests Strait has done enough to prove himself a better option that the guys the brass have decided to go with.

Look, it's a cutthroat business here, and these calls must be made. And I guarantee you the incumbent with a one-way deal beats out the underperforming newcomer on a two-way every time. Every time.
We should make a point of mentioning that Lovejoy was seriously underperforming the last time we saw him in action, on a much bigger stage (while Strait was acquitting himself well). And in a role we don't particularly need.

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01-17-2013, 10:47 PM
  #166
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
For sure. The thing is...I'm sure we both understand deferring to vets in general. They have a track record so you generally know what to expect from them, and you want the newcomers to fight for spots and ice time.

But there's a point when it starts running contrary to the team's best interest. Even at his best from a couple years ago, I don't think Lovejoy's skillset serves this team better now than Strait's. Considering how poorly that skillset has served us recently when it mattered, I don't see how he's not expendable.

It seems we want PMDs and experience to the detriment of everything else.
The funny thing is, with all of the defensemen crammed into the organization, they've spent a good chunk of the year using a forward on the point of the powerplay. Which goes back to the kid gloves thing. I know I probably seem to pick on Benn Ferriero a lot, but that decision baffles me.

When Morrow turned a puck over leading to a goal last Saturday, he was nailed to the bench for the entire third period. Reese, Mormina, Bad Dupuis, etc. aren't held accountable for similar mistakes, and I wonder what kind of message that sends to the younger guys.

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01-17-2013, 10:50 PM
  #167
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Originally Posted by Zen Arcade View Post
The funny thing is, with all of the defensemen crammed into the organization, they've spent a good chunk of the year using a forward on the point of the powerplay. Which goes back to the kid gloves thing. I know I probably seem to pick on Benn Ferriero a lot, but that decision baffles me.

When Morrow turned a puck over leading to a goal last Saturday, he was nailed to the bench for the entire third period. Reese, Mormina, Bad Dupuis, etc. aren't held accountable for similar mistakes, and I wonder what kind of message that sends to the younger guys.
Tenure rules. That's what it tells them.

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01-17-2013, 10:50 PM
  #168
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post

It seems we want PMDs and experience to the detriment of everything else.
Isn't keeping Despres up a condratiction to this?

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01-17-2013, 10:51 PM
  #169
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
We should make a point of mentioning that Lovejoy was seriously underperforming the last time we saw him in action, on a much bigger stage (while Strait was acquitting himself well). And in a role we don't particularly need.
If you use last playoffs as a barometer as who should be around, the team would be down to you and I on the top pair.

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01-17-2013, 10:51 PM
  #170
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But like I said, it's only half the battle. It's no good to be that thing while not producing the results, and there's nothing out there that suggests Strait has done enough to prove himself a better option that the guys the brass have decided to go with.

Look, it's a cutthroat business here, and these calls must be made. And I guarantee you the incumbent with a one-way deal beats out the underperforming newcomer on a two-way every time. Every time.
I understand that's likely a big factor, and it's not the end of the world, but I'm still a bit disappointed.

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01-17-2013, 10:52 PM
  #171
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Isn't keeping Despres up a condratiction to this?
And Bortuzzo.

And lets not act like Lovejoy is Richard Lintner here either.

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01-17-2013, 10:52 PM
  #172
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Isn't keeping Despres up a condratiction to this?
Not as far as I can see.

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01-17-2013, 10:53 PM
  #173
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Originally Posted by clefty View Post
But like I said, it's only half the battle. It's no good to be that thing while not producing the results, and there's nothing out there that suggests Strait has done enough to prove himself a better option that the guys the brass have decided to go with.

Look, it's a cutthroat business here, and these calls must be made. And I guarantee you the incumbent with a one-way deal beats out the underperforming newcomer on a two-way every time. Every time.
But when the worse player is kept, organizations should be called out.

It's pretty hard for Strait to win with this organization. He's a safe, reliable D-man who isn't flashy and does not stand out. He gets called up infrequently and plays his game and doesn't look out of pace at all at the NHL level. I'm all for keeping higher-upside players and all that, but sometimes you should keep players when you have a void...like our black hole defensively.

This organization used to be littered with 'limited' defensemen. Then, we won the Cup with most of them and started replacing all of them with more talented guys...and have looked completely lost in our own end while doing so.

Clearly, we haven't understood the concept of 'less is more' from the back end.

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01-17-2013, 10:55 PM
  #174
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Originally Posted by Jag68Sid87 View Post
But when the worse player is kept, organizations should be called out.
What if Brian Strait IS the worst option?

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01-17-2013, 10:56 PM
  #175
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Part of me sort of hopes the Flyers claim Strait just to see if this fanbase can top the Capitals fans' response to Shero snagging Chris Bourque off the wire a couple years back.

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