HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Western Conference > Pacific Division > Los Angeles Kings
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Leafs looking into Bernier

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
01-17-2013, 08:31 PM
  #51
Ziggy Stardust
Master Debater
 
Ziggy Stardust's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Parts Unknown
Posts: 32,215
vCash: 500
If Nonis was to go with youth and decide to trade Kessel, I'm gonna guess that he's going to target top quality young players/prospects. Boston ended up with Tyler Seguin and Dougie Hamilton (and Jared Knight, but he's nothing really special).

If they were to blow things up, they'd probably look at prospects like Tyler Toffoli and Derek Forbort in addition to Jonathan Bernier and a 1st round pick. Even then, I'm not sure if that's enough for a proven 30+ goal scorer capable of producing 80+ points. I mean, Seguin is only 20 and had a 67 point season last year. Either way, Kessel will cost a ton of assets if Toronto decides to move him. And what a disaster it would be to trade away the player that forced the Leafs to lose two building blocks in Seguin and Hamilton.

Ziggy Stardust is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
01-17-2013, 08:39 PM
  #52
damacles1156
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 13,325
vCash: 500
kessel is not going to be traded on the cheap. It would cost the Kings their best prospects.

Think Tofolli, Forbort, Johnny B, and a first.

Supplement maybe Vey in there somewhere.

The Maple leafs would get a nice package for Kessel.

Dean Lombardi would not trade a package like that for a winger.

Especially a winger like Kessel, All offense....Nothing else.

damacles1156 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-17-2013, 09:53 PM
  #53
etherialone
dialed in your mom
 
etherialone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: The Ether
Country: United Nations
Posts: 12,990
vCash: 500
Thanks for re-affirming what I had said guys.

It would cost allot and a package of our best prospects.

JB etc.

I couldn't agree more.

Of course we might not completely agree on the actual pieces it would take we all agree that it would take at least one (or more) of our top prospects along with JB.

etherialone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-17-2013, 11:53 PM
  #54
Dangles McGavin
RIP Lounge
 
Dangles McGavin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Oakville
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,309
vCash: 500
Like it has been said multiple times in this thread, LA trading for Phil doesn't make any sense.

Leafs would be looking for a Richards/Brown + Bernier type return, and there's no reason for LA to do that. You guys are absolutely STACKED at every position, and you currently fit under the cap so why change anything?

I don't see any way in which LA doesn't make it to the finals.

Good luck this season, gents. Cheers!

Dangles McGavin is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
01-18-2013, 12:40 AM
  #55
bobafettish*
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 5,961
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dangles McGavin View Post
Like it has been said multiple times in this thread, LA trading for Phil doesn't make any sense.

Leafs would be looking for a Richards/Brown + Bernier type return, and there's no reason for LA to do that. You guys are absolutely STACKED at every position, and you currently fit under the cap so why change anything?

I don't see any way in which LA doesn't make it to the finals.

Good luck this season, gents. Cheers!
how about carter and bernier

bobafettish* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-18-2013, 10:56 AM
  #56
SuperAlmeida
Registered User
 
SuperAlmeida's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Country: Norway
Posts: 1,083
vCash: 500
What about something around Bernier for Franson and Scrivens evt. +. I know that Franson is a rightie, but still...

SuperAlmeida is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-18-2013, 11:34 AM
  #57
Ziggy Stardust
Master Debater
 
Ziggy Stardust's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Parts Unknown
Posts: 32,215
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperAlmeida View Post
What about something around Bernier for Franson and Scrivens evt. +. I know that Franson is a rightie, but still...
I don't see how the Kings benefit from that trade.

Ziggy Stardust is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
01-18-2013, 12:09 PM
  #58
kingsfan
#SutterforanOscar
 
kingsfan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Manitoba, Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,643
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by DimMak187 View Post
Let's be realistic here. Dustin Penner is not going to be the centerpiece to a trade for Phil Kessel. In all likelihood it would have to be Mike Richards. It would be a major shakeup of the core.
Let's try reading comprehension here. I said we'd have to add substanctially to Penner to get Kessel. I never said he was the centre piece, but we would have to move a body back in all likelihood for a variety of reasons.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonellisghost View Post

Kessel will be 27 at the end of his contract and the Leafs will still be rebuilding, do you think he will want to stay in TO hoping that the rebuild will get him a shot at the cup?

Maybe I guess but I can't see Kessel being willing to lock up long term for a rebuild that will take him past his prime contract year (typically at or around 28yo).

I see him wanting to at the very least test free agency.
The Kings drafted Drew Doughty 2nd overall in late June, 2008, a year that they were essentially the leagues worst team until the final two games of the year. Almost four years later to the day, Drew Doughty was raising the Stanley up above his head. It doesn't take long to rebuild in the cap era NHL. Kessel and the Leafs could easily have a cup before he turns 33, which isn't old for a guy of Kessel's caliber. And Toronto isn't as bad as LA was in 2008.

I think Kessel goes UFA though for the sheer money factor. I have never really felt Kessel will show any great deal of loyalty to Toronto or any market for that matter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperAlmeida View Post
What about something around Bernier for Franson and Scrivens evt. +. I know that Franson is a rightie, but still...
I don't want Franson. He did little but sulk in Toronto this year. Scrivens I'd take in any Bernier deal, but Toronto would have to add a lot obviously.

kingsfan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-18-2013, 01:17 PM
  #59
etherialone
dialed in your mom
 
etherialone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: The Ether
Country: United Nations
Posts: 12,990
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by kingsfan View Post

The Kings drafted Drew Doughty 2nd overall in late June, 2008, a year that they were essentially the leagues worst team until the final two games of the year. Almost four years later to the day, Drew Doughty was raising the Stanley up above his head. It doesn't take long to rebuild in the cap era NHL. Kessel and the Leafs could easily have a cup before he turns 33, which isn't old for a guy of Kessel's caliber. And Toronto isn't as bad as LA was in 2008.

I think Kessel goes UFA though for the sheer money factor. I have never really felt Kessel will show any great deal of loyalty to Toronto or any market for that matter..

Fair enough but 33 isn't young for a player like PK either, at the very least it is debatable that he would be willing to wait around while the Leafs rebuild and that would be at least into the decline of his overall talent imo.

I would also say that while there are allot of talented players taken every draft that players like DD come along only every now and then and while DD was critically important to our cup he was only one of several building blocks that were needed to accomplish our goal.

The Leafs desperately need to fill several positions (they don't have a number one center on their team or in their system nor do they have any goaltending depth etc) still so I would say that Nonis is closer to starting from scratch than 4 years away.

They have some solid young pieces but their needs are more than just a couple of players. Like we inherited Kopi Brown Quick etc from DT's group Nonis is inheriting a few solid kids from the Burke regime but the rebuild is still a pretty long way away from good. The kids they have today who they are making room to get on the team are going to be the core (Kadrii Gardiners etc) for the team that they will build.

Kessel will most like go UFA and if he does the Leafs will have dealt all of those assets away for nothing. I see them moving PK for the best package of talented kids and picks that they can get. We may not be able to offer them the best package but then we might too.

With Lupul and MacA both UFA's at the end of this season and PK at the end of the next as well as the Leafs needing so much I don't see them being able to convince any of their 3 best forwards to hang around and that they will all be dealt at or near the deadline of this year.


I don't see the Leafs going after a Brown/Richards type player or at least not a 26+yo range.

I guess time will tell but if I were Nonis and I could fill one of my needs with a talented young high end prospect and a couple of solid young players who I believe could be a part of my core or overall depth for a player that I will lose to free agency if I hang on to I would do it.

etherialone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-18-2013, 01:59 PM
  #60
Vic Vinegar
Registered User
 
Vic Vinegar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 3,324
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by kingsfan View Post
Let's try reading comprehension here. I said we'd have to add substanctially to Penner to get Kessel. I never said he was the centre piece, but we would have to move a body back in all likelihood for a variety of reasons.
You wouldn't start with Penner and then "add substantially". That implies Penner is the major piece going the other way. You would have to start with Richards or Brown and then add to that. If you aren't ok with that (you shouldn't be) then just forget about Kessel.

Vic Vinegar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-18-2013, 02:12 PM
  #61
etherialone
dialed in your mom
 
etherialone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: The Ether
Country: United Nations
Posts: 12,990
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by DimMak187 View Post
You wouldn't start with Penner and then "add substantially". That implies Penner is the major piece going the other way. You would have to start with Richards or Brown and then add to that. If you aren't ok with that (you shouldn't be) then just forget about Kessel.
Maybe I am not getting it.

Why would the Leafs want to deal away Kessel for a different player who isn't likely to stick around while they are rebuilding their team when they will lose Lupul and MacA to free agency this summer in all likely hood?

Why would the Leafs want to hang on to Kessel when he will become a ufa at the end of next season leaving the Leafs with nothing to show for the terrible deal that they made to land him when they could deal him for young players prospects and picks that might address the several holes in their line up and depth?

I mean the Leafs have been clearing their roster the last few days (as soon as Nonis was allowed to start making changes) that seem to indicate that they are going to go with a youth movement sort of rebuild that should optimistically speaking take a min of 3 years and more likely 4 to 5 from where they are today.

Why would they risk losing these guys who still have value that can be used to help speed up the process for nothing to free agency?

I just don't see the Leafs being able to hang on to Kessel Lupul or MacA so it doesn't make sense that they would look for another forward of the same age in a return.

High end prospects, young talent and picks makes the most sense.

I can't see any reason that the Leafs would want a Brown or Richards back in a deal for Kessel.

Also, I wouldn't think that you would have to add to Richards or Brown for Kessel, each of them have their specific areas of talent and are at least of equal value.

etherialone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-18-2013, 02:33 PM
  #62
Vic Vinegar
Registered User
 
Vic Vinegar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 3,324
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonellisghost View Post
Maybe I am not getting it.

Why would the Leafs want to deal away Kessel for a different player who isn't likely to stick around while they are rebuilding their team when they will lose Lupul and MacA to free agency this summer in all likely hood?

Why would the Leafs want to hang on to Kessel when he will become a ufa at the end of next season leaving the Leafs with nothing to show for the terrible deal that they made to land him when they could deal him for young players prospects and picks that might address the several holes in their line up and depth?

I mean the Leafs have been clearing their roster the last few days (as soon as Nonis was allowed to start making changes) that seem to indicate that they are going to go with a youth movement sort of rebuild that should optimistically speaking take a min of 3 years and more likely 4 to 5 from where they are today.

Why would they risk losing these guys who still have value that can be used to help speed up the process for nothing to free agency?

I just don't see the Leafs being able to hang on to Kessel Lupul or MacA so it doesn't make sense that they would look for another forward of the same age in a return.

High end prospects, young talent and picks makes the most sense.

I can't see any reason that the Leafs would want a Brown or Richards back in a deal for Kessel.

Also, I wouldn't think that you would have to add to Richards or Brown for Kessel, each of them have their specific areas of talent and are at least of equal value.
I don't know what Nonis is going to do now that he's in charge, we'll just have to wait and see. If they want to make an actual run at the playoffs, they might look at Richards + Bernier. Obviously that's ridiculous from our end.

Even assuming Toronto does go into full a rebuild, they're going to be looking for a package we can't give them. We would have to completely gut our prospect pool just to get them interested. If Kessel becomes available, there will be teams offering better packages than what we gave for Richards, or at least comparable. We just can't give up that much again. The depth isn't there.

Vic Vinegar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-18-2013, 05:30 PM
  #63
etherialone
dialed in your mom
 
etherialone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: The Ether
Country: United Nations
Posts: 12,990
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by DimMak187 View Post
I don't know what Nonis is going to do now that he's in charge, we'll just have to wait and see. If they want to make an actual run at the playoffs, they might look at Richards + Bernier. Obviously that's ridiculous from our end.

Even assuming Toronto does go into full a rebuild, they're going to be looking for a package we can't give them. We would have to completely gut our prospect pool just to get them interested. If Kessel becomes available, there will be teams offering better packages than what we gave for Richards, or at least comparable. We just can't give up that much again. The depth isn't there.
Thats where we disagree. We could give them their young starting goalie and a top pairing D prospect (or one with that potential who will more than likely end up at worst a second pairing big Dman with a bit of O) and a good young C without costing us anything we couldn't afford to move.

Also Nonis has moved Lombardi (his second line C) and waived Connoly to "make room" for his teams talented young players. He is in a rebuild, how much of one we will see but with Lupul and MacA both UFA's at the end of the season I see a rebuild underway.
I agree that there might be a couple of other teams who are in the win now hunt that might be able to make solid offers but we would be right there too.

Not saying we should but we easily could if we wanted to imo.


Last edited by etherialone: 01-18-2013 at 05:48 PM.
etherialone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-18-2013, 11:55 PM
  #64
RonSwanson*
Gadfly
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Food 'N Stuff
Country: United States
Posts: 8,769
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonellisghost View Post
Who knows.

Maybe a deal where we sent (and this is just speculation) one of Gagne or Penner to TO along with a package that had one or more (depending on who) JB Loktionov Richardson a D prospect etc would be enough to interest them.

The Leafs need everything so who knows?
Would you trade Bernier, Voynov (or Martinez), and Richardson for Kessel?

RonSwanson* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-19-2013, 01:00 AM
  #65
etherialone
dialed in your mom
 
etherialone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: The Ether
Country: United Nations
Posts: 12,990
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by RonSwanson View Post
Would you trade Bernier, Voynov (or Martinez), and Richardson for Kessel?
Would I? No but I am not now nor have I been advocating that we should deal for him at all. In the post you quoted I use the words/terms "maybe" and "who knows" because I am merely speculating.

I only mentioned that the Leafs could be looking to move PK due to the fact that he is going to be a UFA at the age of 28 at the end of next season and they have just moved Lombardi and Connoly and are going to lose Lupul and MacArthur at the end of this season too.

With those four veterans going away (two this week and two to ufa at the end of the season) it makes sense to me that the Leafs will also look to move Kessel who is almost certainly going to go UFA when his chance comes up.

I have said that I think it would be interesting and that we could put together a package that would provide the Leafs with what they are looking for in at least two of their areas of need and then give them additional depth as well.

If they wait until the trade deadline (which I would think that they would) to move PK then it would be more of a long term rental (rest of the season and then a full season until he reached UFA) than an acquisition. Better than a short term rental but from the moment you deal for him the clock will be ticking pretty fast.

So, my point is that we could offer Forbort JB Loktionov and another lesser piece (pick Richie Kozun whatever) without hurting us all too much and that would fill at least two areas of need for the Leafs and that they may indeed be interested in a package like that for a season and change of PK. (with the exception of JB you can fit another developing prospect Dman along with Loktionov

Can they do better? Maybe, I would think they could but I would also think that they would at least consider an offer like that before trying to work out exactly what they wanted as well or in place of what was on offer.

Forbort would give them an exceptional top pairing potential prospect who can skate and has great size as well as being a former first round pick along with JB (enough has been said) and Loktionov who has proven he belongs in the NHL (or a different player/prospect of equal value) and change.

Again, I am not saying that I would make this deal nor that I think it is even a good idea to try and do so, only that it would at least be interesting (worthy of discussion) and that the Leafs would in my opinion be wise to consider such an offer if it were made (or something similar).

Even then I don't think we necessarily need PK nor am I supporting the idea that we should go out and try to get him.

I merely said that it would be an interesting thing to consider and that we could put together an offer that I think would be competitive with what the Leafs would receive for a season and a change of PK's services.

That and the idea that the Leafs would want another player of similar age etc isn't necessarily the case. I don't see them going after Brown or Richards as the center piece of a PK deal when they are at least 4 years away (arguable but not so much as things stand today) from being really competitive.

etherialone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-19-2013, 01:15 AM
  #66
Kings man 4 life
Registered User
 
Kings man 4 life's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Peoples Repub. of CA
Country: United States
Posts: 1,519
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by kingsfan View Post
Let's try reading comprehension here. I said we'd have to add substanctially to Penner to get Kessel. I never said he was the centre piece, but we would have to move a body back in all likelihood for a variety of reasons.



The Kings drafted Drew Doughty 2nd overall in late June, 2008, a year that they were essentially the leagues worst team until the final two games of the year. Almost four years later to the day, Drew Doughty was raising the Stanley up above his head. It doesn't take long to rebuild in the cap era NHL. Kessel and the Leafs could easily have a cup before he turns 33, which isn't old for a guy of Kessel's caliber. And Toronto isn't as bad as LA was in 2008.

I think Kessel goes UFA though for the sheer money factor. I have never really felt Kessel will show any great deal of loyalty to Toronto or any market for that matter.



I don't want Franson. He did little but sulk in Toronto this year. Scrivens I'd take in any Bernier deal, but Toronto would have to add a lot obviously.
The problem with that view is that, the Kings already had a very good couple of KEY pieces in the system, in Brown, Kopitar, Quick and Jack Johnson. Brown all the way from 2003. It takes more time than 3-4 years, the Oilers will be a powerhouse but they still lack a few Key pieces. It takes some time.

Kings man 4 life is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-20-2013, 02:43 PM
  #67
kingsfan
#SutterforanOscar
 
kingsfan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Manitoba, Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,643
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonellisghost View Post
Fair enough but 33 isn't young for a player like PK either, at the very least it is debatable that he would be willing to wait around while the Leafs rebuild and that would be at least into the decline of his overall talent imo.

I would also say that while there are allot of talented players taken every draft that players like DD come along only every now and then and while DD was critically important to our cup he was only one of several building blocks that were needed to accomplish our goal.
He may not wait around, but it's not like the Leafs are going through a mega-rebuild. They have some good pieces, it's just a matter of finding a top centre and goalie. Let's not forget we didn't have a top goalie four years ago either.

Not sure what your point is about DD.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonellisghost View Post
The Leafs desperately need to fill several positions (they don't have a number one center on their team or in their system nor do they have any goaltending depth etc) still so I would say that Nonis is closer to starting from scratch than 4 years away.

They have some solid young pieces but their needs are more than just a couple of players. Like we inherited Kopi Brown Quick etc from DT's group Nonis is inheriting a few solid kids from the Burke regime but the rebuild is still a pretty long way away from good. The kids they have today who they are making room to get on the team are going to be the core (Kadrii Gardiners etc) for the team that they will build.
I don't think the Leafs are as far away as you claim them to be, but we can agree to disagree on it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonellisghost View Post
Kessel will most like go UFA and if he does the Leafs will have dealt all of those assets away for nothing. I see them moving PK for the best package of talented kids and picks that they can get. We may not be able to offer them the best package but then we might too.

With Lupul and MacA both UFA's at the end of this season and PK at the end of the next as well as the Leafs needing so much I don't see them being able to convince any of their 3 best forwards to hang around and that they will all be dealt at or near the deadline of this year.
As I'm sure you know, Lupul reupped. And losing MacA isn't that big of a loss. Sorry.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DimMak187 View Post
You wouldn't start with Penner and then "add substantially". That implies Penner is the major piece going the other way. You would have to start with Richards or Brown and then add to that. If you aren't ok with that (you shouldn't be) then just forget about Kessel.
You can say it implies whatever you want, it isn't what I said. We need to send a body out most likely in a deal. It will not be a Brown or whoever, as we are looking to add to our cup team, not subtract our captain or a mega piece of our core.

And just because we won't doesn't mean we need to forget about Kessel. You have zero idea what TO wants for Kessel. That's no proof he's even available, so this is all speculation. If Toronto elects to go into a rebuild such as TG suggested, then they very well could want a largely pick/prospect driven package, meaning guys like Toffoli and Pearson, etc. would be the key parts, not a Penner.

kingsfan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-20-2013, 02:51 PM
  #68
kingsfan
#SutterforanOscar
 
kingsfan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Manitoba, Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,643
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonellisghost View Post

I mean the Leafs have been clearing their roster the last few days (as soon as Nonis was allowed to start making changes) that seem to indicate that they are going to go with a youth movement sort of rebuild that should optimistically speaking take a min of 3 years and more likely 4 to 5 from where they are today.
To me it just indicates that Nonis has been allowed to remove some dead weight from the roster. Lombardi and Connolly, for their cap hit, gave little production. Besides, Connolly is still there. He wasn't bought out last I read.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kings man 4 life View Post
The problem with that view is that, the Kings already had a very good couple of KEY pieces in the system, in Brown, Kopitar, Quick and Jack Johnson. Brown all the way from 2003. It takes more time than 3-4 years, the Oilers will be a powerhouse but they still lack a few Key pieces. It takes some time.
But this is assuming Toronto has no key pieces of their own already. I mean, they aren't a great team right now, but they do have Kessel, Lupul, Gardiner, Phanuef, etc.

The real difference between us four years ago and the Leafs now is that we had a top centre and they don't. We didn't know how good DD would be and no one would have dared suggest Quick would be what he is. Nothing to say TO could have the same benefit from O'Reilly and Reimer.

kingsfan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-20-2013, 03:06 PM
  #69
etherialone
dialed in your mom
 
etherialone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: The Ether
Country: United Nations
Posts: 12,990
vCash: 500
You make some good points KF and I would normally respond in full but after trying to argue reason and logic with a few leaf fans who are completely devoid of it I am flat out done with first discussing their wreck of a team and secondly giving a fetid turd about how much longer they continue to wallow in failure.

They signed Lupul today, I think it was a fair deal but how has that gone for them so far? Don't care.

They haven't done much as an org since the 60's and are imo on path to keep on keepin on.

My point in our thread is that it would be interesting to see how PK would fit in with the Kings and that we could put together a package without gutting ourselves that would address some of the Leafs needs (young stud dman, young stud goalie, nhl ready talented forward prospect and a pick all on the cheap.

Not that I would make that deal, just saying that it would at least be a solid offer.

etherialone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-20-2013, 03:13 PM
  #70
kingsfan
#SutterforanOscar
 
kingsfan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Manitoba, Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,643
vCash: 500
Agreed.

And for the record, the only thing close to being as good as seeing the Kings win the cup is seeing the Leafs wallow in the lower bowls of the standings. May it continue for many years.

kingsfan is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:18 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.