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Do you believe our "window" to win the Cup is still open?

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Old
01-16-2013, 09:02 PM
  #101
Fat Tony
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Originally Posted by billvanseattle View Post
Can't believe the doom and gloom - we pretty much have the same team that won the president's trophy
The gears started grinding around about Jan. last season.

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01-16-2013, 09:16 PM
  #102
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I think we already missed our window but that's just me. I honestly expect a repeat of last playoffs this year, maybe not in round 1 but our offence will dry up and we won't be able to overcome it.
Possibly, or Kesler is finally healthy come playoff time and we are a sudden surprise to teams. Frankly, this team will be defined with what Gillis does during the off season. We have a number of 'veterans' who must contribute for us to be successful.

Edler - Needs to develop consistency.
Kesler - Has to stay healthy.
Booth - Health, consistency, his whole game needs to turn a new page; a better one.
Raymond - Yet another consistency issue. He either lives or dies with this season.
Ballard - Yeah... do I even need to say it?

Consistency is this team's greatest Achilles' heel, short of perhaps injuries. With the exception of Kesler, the aforementioned players are those we have to move on from if those issues cannot be addressed.

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01-16-2013, 09:31 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
Kesler - Has to stay healthy.
This is a coaching issue. He plays the toughest minutes on the team. Cut down his icetime whether he likes it or not or take him off the PK. The guy is at the redline all the time and needs someone to rein him in.

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01-16-2013, 10:44 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by droid56 View Post
I keep reading posts referring to our window to win the Cup being open for 2 or 3 years.

I love the Canucks, and have been following their fortunes from day one, but I doubt that their window is still open.

I love the Sedins, but does anyone seriously believe they are the type of players that can triumph in the playoffs when the refs put their whistles away. The series vs Boston
is strong evidence that this is true.

And then there is Ryan Kesler. He is an injury waiting to happen. And his production has become less for various reasons.

I guess the fact that the L.A. Kings won the Stanley Cup after just making the playoffs show us that the window is still open for our team. But the evidence of the past 2 or 3 years suggests that it is quite unlikely that the Canucks are a serious contender for the Cup.

I hope I'm wrong.
Based on your assessment of the Sedins, we never really had a window to begin with.

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01-17-2013, 04:19 AM
  #105
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Anyone else feeling strangely optimistic about our chances as long as we get into the playoffs? In spite of the injuries we have right now and everything, I feel like we're going to get through it, whether it be through some tight, tight defence not seen since the days of 06-07 or some heartwarming combination of goaltending brilliance from both Lu and Schneids - controversy be damned. Maybe I'm crazy but I just feel like everything's going to work out okay... somehow.

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01-17-2013, 08:13 AM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Fat Tony View Post
2011 was this generation's best shot at a Cup. I hope I'm wrong but I don't see this group of players getting that close again.
Av has shown to be able to play rope a dope hockey, Dave Tippet style. As the team ages, we might be able to get more out of them with that style.

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01-17-2013, 09:06 AM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
Possibly, or Kesler is finally healthy come playoff time and we are a sudden surprise to teams. Frankly, this team will be defined with what Gillis does during the off season. We have a number of 'veterans' who must contribute for us to be successful.

Edler - Needs to develop consistency.
Kesler - Has to stay healthy.
Booth - Health, consistency, his whole game needs to turn a new page; a better one.
Raymond - Yet another consistency issue. He either lives or dies with this season.
Ballard - Yeah... do I even need to say it?

Consistency is this team's greatest Achilles' heel, short of perhaps injuries. With the exception of Kesler, the aforementioned players are those we have to move on from if those issues cannot be addressed.
I agree with this assessment. For this season and the next, yes, this team is good enough to win the cup if they play to their potential. I think this current core has 2-3 years of really contending left in them, before a decline begins.

Beyond that, it depends on the progression of Kassian, Jensen, Schroeder, Gaunce, Corrado, McEneny and any other potentially good prospects we acquire. If 4 out of those 6 become passable 1st line/good 2nd line (or pairing) players, we should be pretty sweet. If not, we could be pretty screwed.

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01-17-2013, 09:19 AM
  #108
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I don't know. I think for all the "inconsistency" stuff you can point to a couple of much more tangible reasons for the drop off in these players effectiveness.

Edler has battled injuries for a couple of years and last year had a dogs breakfast of defense parterns after Sami Salo's game went into the tank.
Raymond was obviously nowhere near 100% last year and the season prior I believe played through a couple of hand injuries
Kesler - obviously that's an injury thing
Booth - again there's health and there's linemates (playing alongside an injured Kesler at the end of last year didn't do much for him).
Ballard - injuries, and he has been asked to completely change his approach to the game (and basically torn down to the ground by the coaching staff).

You can add Manny Malhotra to the list as his lack of opportunity to train last offseason probably hampered his game, Mikael Samuelsson played through an abdominal injury for most of the last season he was here, Kevin Bieksa had problems with injuries for years but a run of good health and a rock solid partner means nobody puts him on the "these guys need to be more consistent" list anymore.

The bottom line is that if the Canucks had the good fortune to go 80 regular season games then 25 playoff games with minimal injury to their core players - or to have enough depth that they could sustain those injuries without a drop off in play (virtually no teams have this) they would probably have a lot more success in consistently performing at the same high level.

I just don't really buy the notion that these guys know exactly what it takes some nights and completely forget others.

(And this isn't to give these players a free pass, either - if for whatever reason they can't stay healthy enough to perform then the organization needs to find someone who will.)

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01-17-2013, 10:17 AM
  #109
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Consistency is overrated. A consistent team doesn't exceed expectations. A streaky team can. Consistency = top 8 every year. Streaky = 1st every 8th year.

Obviously a huge exaggeration, but it does cross my mind sometimes that we always look for consistency, yet the adage isn't 'the team that keeps playing at the top of their game wins the cup.' - it's that the 'team that gets hot at the right time' wins the cup.

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Old
01-17-2013, 10:26 AM
  #110
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That's silly. How many people out there are hoping their team hits a horrendous midseason slump, in order to get it out of the way before the playoffs?

Most teams that win the cup have been at or near the top of the league for most of the season.

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Old
01-17-2013, 11:31 AM
  #111
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Originally Posted by dave babych returns View Post
Most teams that win the cup have been at or near the top of the league for most of the season.
Conversely, most teams that sit at or near the top of the league for most of the season - don't win the cup.

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Old
01-17-2013, 12:57 PM
  #112
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That may happen occasionally, but it's not like Detroit, Pitts and Chicago were at the bottom of the league when they won. Going back to the Colorado-Det-New Jay days all those teams were good.

Lately any team willing to play the Kings boring ass penalty kill type of hockey has a chance to win if they have a couple of good counter attackers and a decent goalie.

The Canucks missed their shot I think. Schneider should have played game 6 at least after Luongo showed he could not play in Boston. Maybe things turn out differently then.

They do not have enough prospects in the tank. Somehow, despite late drafting, Detroit stays well stocked, I think even San Jose is closer to winning a cup than Vancouver, maybe not with Marleau and co, but with the younger guys they have.

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Old
01-17-2013, 02:19 PM
  #113
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I've heard many people say that any team with the Sedins as their best players won't win the Cup. As much as I like the Sedins, I don't think they can win a cup as the #1 and #2 options of a team.

The problem with the Sedins is that their production is so intertwined and they depend on each other so much to score when they are both healthy. Splitting them up is a no go because they are so good together and because they are twins.

Really, splitting them up is the logical and what's best for the team. Their individual production will take a hit, but the team will be more well-rounded.. and they can always play together on the powerplay.

Daniel - Kesler - Kassian/Hansen
Booth - Henrik - Burrows
Higgins - Malhotra - Hansen/Kassian

The Sedins are invisible in terms of physicality, and they suck defensively. They are thin and get pushed around physically. So we have two soft players on our top line, which means we spend 18 minutes a game getting pushed around. Being a soft player isn't a bad thing. Having two soft players playing on the same line is a bad thing, however. Lining Daniel up with Kesler and Kassian will take the physical pressure off of both Daniel and Henrik.

Kesler needing a playmaking winger is pretty much consensus on the board. Daniel is severely underrated as a playmaking winger. There really aren't many better playmaking wingers in the league. Daniel's easily a top 5 playmaking winger. Why not put him with Kesler? Really, Kesler and Daniel compliment each other so much in terms of weaknesses/strengths. If the Sedins weren't twins, Daniel and Kesler would be playing with each other.

Henrik's easily one of the best playmakers in the league, and most of the time, he shares the puck with Daniel. Admittedly, his production would take a hit, but he'd have the puck on his stick for more of the time he's on the ice. He'd have two gritty players who crash the net and are big bodies. Henrik would be able to make those passes in tight areas.

The problem isn't the Sedins as individual players. The problem is that Vancouver is so stubborn that they simply cannot let go of the fact that the Sedins are twins.

I don't think we will win with the Sedins. They are great players when playing together. They would be worse players without each other.. but the team would be in a better position. The team would have more flexibility, and wouldn't have to rely on just one line to score.

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Old
01-17-2013, 02:32 PM
  #114
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This shortened season will make or break this squad I think. Every other team in our division is getting significantly better, but we still have the same core roster. We seriously need some better secondary scoring, the Sedins aren't getting any younger and we're going to have a hell of a time re-signing our best defenceman in the off-season.

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01-17-2013, 02:39 PM
  #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AmazingNuck View Post
Daniel's easily a top 5 playmaking winger.
Easily? He was in a 3 way tie for 22nd in assists last year. I'm not saying he's a bad play-maker, and you could even make an argument that he's close to or in the top 5...but easily? I have trouble agreeing with that.

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01-17-2013, 07:39 PM
  #116
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This FRANCHISES best chance to date was 2011. Top offense in the league, top defense in the league, home ice advantage throughout playoffs, 2-0 lead in Stanley Cup finals.... *sigh*

The Canucks of today can certainly compete, and it is true 'anything can happen' in the playoffs, but they are no longer among the favourites IMO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Street Hawk View Post
How long that window remains open depends on Gillis' draft picks.

Kassian (I'm basically putting his name down for Hodgson)
Sauve
Schroeder
Rodin
Connautton
McNally
Anderson
Price
Jensen
Honzig
Labate
Gaunce
Mallett
What a pile of steaming dogsh!t. Compared to virtually any other team in the league... ugly..

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Old
01-17-2013, 11:45 PM
  #117
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This FRANCHISES best chance to date was 2011. Top offense in the league, top defense in the league, home ice advantage throughout playoffs, 2-0 lead in Stanley Cup finals.... *sigh*
That was OUR year. Our ****ing year, God dammit. The Canucks were supposed to win the Cup and they ****ing blew it.

Sorry, I'm still not over what happened.

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01-18-2013, 12:23 AM
  #118
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That was OUR year. Our ****ing year, God dammit. The Canucks were supposed to win the Cup and they ****ing blew it.

Sorry, I'm still not over what happened.
Yep, you're not alone there. That was their shot and we all knew it.

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Old
01-18-2013, 02:02 AM
  #119
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Our last few first rounders have basically been Ballard and Kassian, turns out, so there's not much help on the way unfortunately. I'd say this season is our last, best shot and the shortening of it helps karmically because we're more likely to win in a year everyone else can claim is not legit or equal, the Canucks being so star-crossed as they are. After this season the window starts closing, especially if we have to move a goalie for weak return, lose important players to free agency, or mismanage the cap with the new CBA.

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01-18-2013, 02:18 AM
  #120
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I feel this version of the Canucks has passed the window of opportunity. The team you are dressing in the first 10 games will not win you a Cup, it would barely get you into the playoffs. If I were the Canucks I would play it out this way....

1. see how the first half goes with the injury issues - if going well, trade Luongo for whatever is missing. If not going well, hang onto Luongo until trade deadline or even the summer.
2. by hanging onto him, you get to see what direction to move. (a) You might not improve your team today in hopes of a better draft position or (b) you might opt to make a trade to improve today, if your team has a shot. It should also increase his trade value... there will be injuries this year. You will also see some odd teams making a run to make the playoffs and you never know what desperate GM might pulll the trigger on a questionable trade to make his team better today.
3. Obtaining a better draft pick this year and some excellent prospects and/or even a very good 2 or 3 year NHLer(s) out of Luongo (NYR have a couple if Lundqvist was to go down to injury.)
4. Imagine what you could get for the Sedins in the next year or 2?
5. Keep Schneider and the Dcorps.

In about 5 years you are ready to take another run at it.

Too many teams do not identify that their windows have closed and hang onto hope, applying bandaids to an ailing lineup, rather than re-tooling while your assets are still worth something. Re-tooling would open up a wider window.


Last edited by zar: 01-18-2013 at 02:24 AM.
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01-18-2013, 02:27 AM
  #121
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Easily? He was in a 3 way tie for 22nd in assists last year. I'm not saying he's a bad play-maker, and you could even make an argument that he's close to or in the top 5...but easily? I have trouble agreeing with that.
He won the Art Ross the year beforeand he missed 10 games last season

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01-18-2013, 02:30 AM
  #122
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Originally Posted by zar View Post
I feel this version of the Canucks has passed the window of opportunity. The team you are dressing in the first 10 games will not win you a Cup, it would barely get you into the playoffs. If I were the Canucks I would play it out this way....

1. see how the first half goes with the injury issues - if going well, trade Luongo for whatever is missing. If ot going well, hang onto Luongo until trade deadline or even the summer.
2. by hanging onto him you get to see if you not improve our team today in hopes of a better draft position or make a trade to improve today if your team has a shot. It should also increase his trade value... there will be injuries this year. You will also see some odd teams making a run to make the playoffs and you never know what desperate GM might pulll the trigger on a questionable trade to make his team better today.
3. Obtaining better draft pick this year and some excellent prospects and/or even a very good 2 or 3 year NHLer(s) out of Luongo (NYR have a couple) if Lundqvist goes down to injury.
4. Imagine what you could get for the Sedins in the next year or 2?
5. Keep Schneider and the Dcorps.

In about 5 years you are ready to take another run at it.

Too many teams do not identify that their windows have closed and hang onto hope, applying bandaids to an ailing lineup, rather than re-tooling while your assets are still worth something. Re-tooling would open up a wider window.
Wait one second.

The team that is functionally equivalent to the President's Trophy winning team last year (remember, Kesler, Booth, Raymond, Daniel Sedin, and arguably Henrik Sedin had down years last year) loses Salo, gains Garrison, has a couple injuries in their top 6, and suddenly we're barely likely to make it into the playoffs?

This team has a defence corp that would rival most any in the west - we may not have that bona fide number one, but we have an incredible top 4, and a very adequate bottom pairing. We have, for the moment, two excellent goaltenders, neither of whom will be moved for any value that is worse for the team in this shortened season.

We have an incredible top line, and a strong nucleus of forwards in our bottom six. How many teams can boast of having wingers like Hansen and Higgins on their third lines? Malholtra seems to have taken a step in the right direction, Lapierre has shown on multiple occasions that he can be relied upon, and Dale Weise seems ready to take the next step in his development.

Sure, with injuries to Kesler and Booth, we may not win the President's Trophy again.

But barely squeak in, or not make the playoffs entirely?

That, my friend, is ludicrous.

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01-18-2013, 02:38 AM
  #123
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01-18-2013, 02:54 AM
  #124
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We're currently rated 3rd or 4th favorites to win the Cup. Our window is certainly still open.

Our team is clearly good enough but just like anyone else, we're going to need a lot of luck to win as well.

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01-18-2013, 04:01 AM
  #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AmazingNuck View Post
I've heard many people say that any team with the Sedins as their best players won't win the Cup. As much as I like the Sedins, I don't think they can win a cup as the #1 and #2 options of a team.

The problem with the Sedins is that their production is so intertwined and they depend on each other so much to score when they are both healthy. Splitting them up is a no go because they are so good together and because they are twins.

Really, splitting them up is the logical and what's best for the team. Their individual production will take a hit, but the team will be more well-rounded.. and they can always play together on the powerplay.

Daniel - Kesler - Kassian/Hansen
Booth - Henrik - Burrows
Higgins - Malhotra - Hansen/Kassian

The Sedins are invisible in terms of physicality, and they suck defensively. They are thin and get pushed around physically. So we have two soft players on our top line, which means we spend 18 minutes a game getting pushed around. Being a soft player isn't a bad thing. Having two soft players playing on the same line is a bad thing, however. Lining Daniel up with Kesler and Kassian will take the physical pressure off of both Daniel and Henrik.

Kesler needing a playmaking winger is pretty much consensus on the board. Daniel is severely underrated as a playmaking winger. There really aren't many better playmaking wingers in the league. Daniel's easily a top 5 playmaking winger. Why not put him with Kesler? Really, Kesler and Daniel compliment each other so much in terms of weaknesses/strengths. If the Sedins weren't twins, Daniel and Kesler would be playing with each other.

Henrik's easily one of the best playmakers in the league, and most of the time, he shares the puck with Daniel. Admittedly, his production would take a hit, but he'd have the puck on his stick for more of the time he's on the ice. He'd have two gritty players who crash the net and are big bodies. Henrik would be able to make those passes in tight areas.

The problem isn't the Sedins as individual players. The problem is that Vancouver is so stubborn that they simply cannot let go of the fact that the Sedins are twins.

I don't think we will win with the Sedins. They are great players when playing together. They would be worse players without each other.. but the team would be in a better position. The team would have more flexibility, and wouldn't have to rely on just one line to score.
Some good points made here that I can get on board with. If they weren't twins, we'd probably have seen Daniel with Kesler long before now.

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