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Old
01-13-2013, 11:45 AM
  #26
Vladdy84
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Originally Posted by 8snake View Post
This Corey Emmerton that Bob is describing is one I have not seen during his time in the Wings organization. "Good skater" with "speed" and "agility"? Word? Good defensively? If you go by Bob's observations you'd think we had a budding young center with the potential to be a 5-10 year fixture at a 3rd or 4th line spot, not the player who presently is a borderline NHL plug who may not be in the league 1-2 years from now.
If his name was Corlov Emmerslavka he would be a soft euro that has no business in the NHL.

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01-13-2013, 12:50 PM
  #27
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Agree with you, Abdelkader isn't enough good at center play, even though he's good at faceoffs. That faceoff skill is good for penalty kill, but that's outside of this real center discussion. 5-on-5 play is what matters 90%.

This is also one reason why I've been touting that Datsyuk-Zetterberg-Filppula-Helm center core. No one can match that in this league. Then there's no weak center in any line, all can defend well, skate and rush the puck. Really traditional Red Wings center work. When every of your line is strong at centre, you have very very deep offence, nothing like we had for example at last season.

Our winger depth is now so much better, that we could build that extremely strong center-core (if Helm ever gets healthy again )

Yeah yeah, "Filppula has to be at TOP6 and Helm is the best 3rd center in the league, Babcock said it!", I've heard that enough and know that. They can get their extra minutes with extra shifts at key moments of the game, no problem. But to get really balanced attack, you put the best guys in the middle and then build around them.
I've also been on board with having Flip centering the 3rd line and moving Helm to the 4th C spot, and hope to see that happen this season. Our scoring would be better spread out thru 3 potentially solid lines, and a 4th line of Helm-Abby-Tootoo would be a really disruptive line for the opposition. Teams would have to play their best defensive players against our top 2 lines, letting Flip work against some lesser competition.

Helm centering our 4th line is a huge upgrade in almost every way over Emmerton, and I just don't see any room for Mursak anywhere. The writing is on the wall for Emmerton in that we've got guys like Jarnkrok and Sheahan coming up soon, so there just won't be a place for the guy. And injuries basically took away Mursak's chance with the Wings, hoping he gets a better opportunity elsewhere.

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01-13-2013, 01:05 PM
  #28
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He didn't say good defensively did he? Emmerton had one job and that was to play 8 minutes/night and not get scored on, FAIL. Yes, you can say it was a team effort to get scored on but in his case you would be wrong. So many times it was his man in the high slot left alone to score. Good face off man? sub 50% is not good in anyone's books. He's just not good enough at anything. We have a deep enough team that we can use a players situationally and put players in a position to succeed. I don't see what his strength is. Even people who complain about Sammy will say he has a use on the PP (but that's another thread).
Look, I'm not saying Emmerton is a God.
I think Abdelkader is better as a winger than Emmerton is a center.

But as centers go, I think Emmerton is better.
Emmerton has upside to be a "Greg Johnson" type, in my opinion.

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01-13-2013, 01:08 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Vladdy84 View Post
If his name was Corlov Emmerslavka he would be a soft euro that has no business in the NHL.
Alright Vladdie84, you're on my radar.

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01-13-2013, 01:09 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by RedWings19405 View Post
Miller is also a player that has been waived twice and had a career year, think people should be careful there. Mursak is a very good penalty killer and with his ankle back to 100% offers more speed and is actually more physical than Miller who is quite light.

I hope they trade Miller while his value is highest to be honest. I hope he has a good year if he sticks around but I want Mursak in over him.
I tend to agree with you regarding Miller. I think Miller and Eaves where good for the team at the time they were originally acquired. Thinks, however, have changed in the last two years both in terms of our prospect depth and our cap situation. I think Miller is a very, very smart player, but I prefer Mursak's speed to Miller's intelligence and good positional play.

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01-13-2013, 01:13 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
Look, I'm not saying Emmerton is a God.
I think Abdelkader is better as a winger than Emmerton is a center.

But as centers go, I think Emmerton is better.
Emmerton has upside to be a "Greg Johnson" type, in my opinion.
I hate it when you say a player has a usefulness and people take that to mean you think the guy is a first liner. Didn't mean to imply that on you.

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01-13-2013, 11:42 PM
  #32
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I honestly don't know what to think of Mursak at this point. That injury was tough, and the sample size we've gotten since is just too small to really get a read on him. Babcock would've done well to give him more than table scraps last season we he came back, but he didn't, and it is what it is. We'll see what happens this year, but I'm honestly not expecting much. Too much of a logjam at forward already.

Emmerton, to me, has no future. He's a plug.

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01-13-2013, 11:48 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Kiddington View Post
I honestly don't know what to think of Mursak at this point. That injury was tough, and the sample size we've gotten since is just too small to really get a read on him. Babcock would've done well to give him more than table scraps last season we he came back, but he didn't, and it is what it is. We'll see what happens this year, but I'm honestly not expecting much. Too much of a logjam at forward already.

Emmerton, to me, has no future. He's a plug.
You literally can't judge guys like Emmerton and Mursak in the role they've had in Detroit. You can't be an effective player playing 5 minutes a night unless you have Helm-like speed or are extremely physical.

My guess is that neither Mursak or Emmerton ever get a decent shot with the Wings.
My guess is that both end up as legit NHLers... how good? Time will tell.

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01-14-2013, 01:22 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
You literally can't judge guys like Emmerton and Mursak in the role they've had in Detroit. You can't be an effective player playing 5 minutes a night unless you have Helm-like speed or are extremely physical.

My guess is that neither Mursak or Emmerton ever get a decent shot with the Wings.
My guess is that both end up as legit NHLers... how good? Time will tell.
But as Kylefltx said you can. Please look back at the stats from last season-2011-2012 Red Wings Stats

Emmerton played an (immense) 71 games yet was just above Smith in points who played only 14 games! Cory had 6 goals and 4 assists...Sorry but to come off the bench that fresh and pumped up against the opposing 4th line you better mutha ****in do something to make a splash in the NHL, and I wish he had.

OK now Jan Mursak. In 25 GAMES he is tied with Chris Conner for points (3), who played only 8 games. Why isn't there a rally cry for Connor to be given a bigger role??

Lastly take Nyquist. Who got to play with Datsyuk and Bertuzzi, In 18 games he had 7 points, tied with B. Smith, a D who accumulated the exact same points in 14 gp.

My point is that while we demand our prospects be given greater responsibilities they really haven't proven anything yet. In the little time you get you've got to make things happen, that's how rookies like Henrique, Landeskog or Kreider made their mark, one shift at a time.

I understand that it is a wash....the prospects are our future and they could be doing what Abbie, Miller, and Eaves do but so what? If it comes down to it let them drop the gloves and fight Abdelkader for the spot, it will be a bloodbath and I guarantee who will be left standing. To me Sammy, Bert and Cleary have more pride and fight to let any prospect steal their job. If it happens then horray Wings fans but until then our above average prospects will stay in the back as support, or get traded, and wait for their time to shine if that is even a possibility. Michael Samuelsson is a proven game changer, Mursak is not.... yet.

To quote Coach Babcock about the situation: “Nyquist, (Tomas) Tatar, (Joakim) Andersson and (Riley) Sheahan have been fantastic in Grand Rapids,'' Babcock said. “I know what they can do and we’ll see when we need them.''

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01-14-2013, 01:41 AM
  #35
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Here's the thing about Emmerton.

He doesn't excel in any one specific area; he's not a sniper, or an offensive wizard, or a speed demon, or a body-banging freak of nature. What he does do? He doesn't suck at anything.

Most people talk about "good bottom sixers" in the sense of a guy like Draper or Maltby or Helm or Tootoo, someone who forechecks and hits and puts pressure on the opposition while playing solid defense.

But another definition of "good bottom sixer" is "guy who can go out on the ice and play his role without consistently making harmful mistakes."

And Emmerton fits that second definition. It's why he made the opening night lineup out of camp last year, and it's why he'll probably end up sticking around.

Out of Emmerton, Mursak, Miller, and Eaves, who does end up going?

We've got this so far:
Z/Dats/Brunner
Franzen/Flip/Sammy
Cleary/Helm/Bert
Tootoo/Abdelkader/???

Miller and Eaves bring an expensive redundancy, while Mursak and Emmerton can fill that role in however many games part-time as well as develop with the team going forward into potentially something more.

So the most likely result?

Eaves is traded.
Miller is the next most likely.
After that, it depends on how Mursak's injury and Emmerton's rookie year affected the way Holland and Babcock view the two players. Mursak was handed a roster spot while Emmerton had to earn it, so it's clear Emmerton was working from the back. But while Emmerton wasn't a star of any kind, he served his role well and performed solidly in the playoffs; playoffs Mursak was a healthy scratch for.

So we'll see what happens. And obviously, Knuble is the wild card in all of this.

I think Emmerton is unlikely to be the guy traded unless a team specifically requests him out of the four. Even if he doesn't play over Miller, he's slotted over Mursak and there's no sense in keeping both of Miller and Eaves when one will always be sitting. Especially after the Tootoo signing.

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01-14-2013, 04:39 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Rzombo4 prez View Post
I tend to agree with you regarding Miller. I think Miller and Eaves where good for the team at the time they were originally acquired. Thinks, however, have changed in the last two years both in terms of our prospect depth and our cap situation. I think Miller is a very, very smart player, but I prefer Mursak's speed to Miller's intelligence and good positional play.
I just want that those guys will work together and Miller teaches those smarts to Mursak. That's what experienced played should do with a kid. Then we have these "Miller-smarts" in Mursak's tools, and that will be a better future player than either is right now.

I'm quite sure, Mursak was very frustrated about the last season. Now, the lockout did fresh his feelings for sure, because he did score a lot and got offensive resposibility in that weak Austrian leugue. That gave some confidence back and also was refreshening to get out for a while from a bottom6 role. Now that challenge is in front of him again.

I wouldn't bet against him. He has fought his way so far as the 2nd best Slovenian ever, I just can't see him dropping out at this point. I think will push through, because he just has too good tools.


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01-15-2013, 12:02 AM
  #37
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I don't hate Emmerton, but he doesnt seem to excel at much. With the depth the wings have, both parties might be better served with a trade to somewhere where he can get more ice time.

Mursak needs to be given more of a shot, I think. The kid has great wheels, some offensive talent and can PK. I'd hate to give up on him too early just to see him blossom with some other team.

Miller is a finisher, which isn't always easy to find for a depth player. I don't see us getting much from a trade out of him anyways, so why give him the boot?

But, to be honest, all of this talk just makes me angrier that we signed Sammy...

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01-15-2013, 03:06 PM
  #38
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[QUOTE=Captain Bob;57478435]IMO, I'd rather keep Emmerton and dump but Emmerton can skate and with hard work I see him as a guy who'll be in this league for a long time and maybe have a couple decent 15 goal seasons. QUOTE]

Thanks, I really needed a good laugh today.

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01-15-2013, 05:23 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Hckytwn View Post
I don't hate Emmerton, but he doesnt seem to excel at much. With the depth the wings have, both parties might be better served with a trade to somewhere where he can get more ice time.

Mursak needs to be given more of a shot, I think. The kid has great wheels, some offensive talent and can PK. I'd hate to give up on him too early just to see him blossom with some other team.
Yeah, that's pretty much how I feel about Emmerton, too. He's not bad enough at anything to make me want him off the club, but he's not good enough to make me want to keep him, either. I like Mursak more because I think he's just as safe, but his speed (and right handedness) brings a bit extra. Guys who get 12 minutes on a good night should bring something extra.

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01-15-2013, 06:42 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Hckytwn View Post

Miller is a finisher
Miller has played well last year and all, but I wouldn't call the guy a "finisher". And if the 3 guys behind him on the depth chart for a 4th line spot are Mursak, Eaves, and Nyquist, I'd say all 3 have a better finishing ability than Miller.

I do like some things Miller brings though, he works his butt off, and I really like his defensive positioning and his hustle, which is good late in games and stopping the opponents lines.

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01-15-2013, 07:00 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Kiddington View Post
I honestly don't know what to think of Mursak at this point. That injury was tough, and the sample size we've gotten since is just too small to really get a read on him. Babcock would've done well to give him more than table scraps last season we he came back, but he didn't, and it is what it is. We'll see what happens this year, but I'm honestly not expecting much. Too much of a logjam at forward already.

Emmerton, to me, has no future. He's a plug.
Agree on Emmerton, he simply hasn't stood out since junior. The only reason I think of why they are keeping him around is to center the 4th line. I do like Mursak and I'd like to see him on a line with Helm. Their speed would make that line very good at forechecking, maybe put Miller or Eaves on the other wing since they can play good defense. Then put Bert and Cleary on a line with Abby. They have size but limited scoring ability, might as well let them go out there and tee off on the opponents' defensemen. Who knows, with the softest competition available maybe they'd put up some offensive numbers (20-25ish points each). Bert can take his place as one of the top 3 in the shootout.

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01-15-2013, 07:43 PM
  #42
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Miller has played well last year and all, but I wouldn't call the guy a "finisher". And if the 3 guys behind him on the depth chart for a 4th line spot are Mursak, Eaves, and Nyquist, I'd say all 3 have a better finishing ability than Miller.

I do like some things Miller brings though, he works his butt off, and I really like his defensive positioning and his hustle, which is good late in games and stopping the opponents lines.
I'll give you Eaves and Nyquist as better finishers, but Mursak? Dude couldn't finish his dinner as a Wing. I know he has scored at the AHL level, but his hands have looked Abdelkader-esque in during his NHL ice time. I like Mursak's speed, but I don't think it's enough to offset the usefulness of guys like Miller and Eaves (if he's healthy) on the PK.

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01-18-2013, 02:33 AM
  #43
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I can't post the link because I just read it on my Mlive app, but Eaves has now been cleared to play per Khan. In addition, Helm is going to be placed on short term injured reserved as he's expected to miss the first few games. Once Helm returns (and assuming nobody else is on injured reserve) then the decision will be made regarding Emmerton and Mursak. One, this means Knuble will be in Grand Rapids if he wants to play hockey for this organization. Two, it's a tough decision regarding Emmerton and Mursak. Emmerton at center instantly makes him more valuable in that sense. You can keep Pav and Z together if wanted if Helm or Abdelkader are out. Mursak, however, has more long term potential IMO. I really think he'll develop into a solid bottom six winger at some point in time. I think I'd rather keep Mursak, but can't imagine them dumping a center.

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01-18-2013, 03:13 AM
  #44
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I can't post the link because I just read it on my Mlive app, but Eaves has now been cleared to play per Khan. In addition, Helm is going to be placed on short term injured reserved as he's expected to miss the first few games. Once Helm returns (and assuming nobody else is on injured reserve) then the decision will be made regarding Emmerton and Mursak. One, this means Knuble will be in Grand Rapids if he wants to play hockey for this organization. Two, it's a tough decision regarding Emmerton and Mursak. Emmerton at center instantly makes him more valuable in that sense. You can keep Pav and Z together if wanted if Helm or Abdelkader are out. Mursak, however, has more long term potential IMO. I really think he'll develop into a solid bottom six winger at some point in time. I think I'd rather keep Mursak, but can't imagine them dumping a center.
Depends on how they truly feel about Andersson at center or calling up Sheahan. If that is the plan when a center goes down and they are as comfortable with that as playing Emmerton I think Mursak might stay.

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01-18-2013, 03:58 AM
  #45
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Originally Posted by RedWings19405 View Post
Depends on how they truly feel about Andersson at center or calling up Sheahan. If that is the plan when a center goes down and they are as comfortable with that as playing Emmerton I think Mursak might stay.
Very good point.

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01-18-2013, 07:46 AM
  #46
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Miller is also a player that has been waived twice and had a career year, think people should be careful there. Mursak is a very good penalty killer and with his ankle back to 100% offers more speed and is actually more physical than Miller who is quite light.

I hope they trade Miller while his value is highest to be honest. I hope he has a good year if he sticks around but I want Mursak in over him.
miller is needed for PK, especially with the (probably) weak PK d-men. mursak could be a good PKer, but i don't see any reason to think he would be better than miller. mursak has never PKed in NHL.

25 games is not a good view, but i did not see anything special about mursak. mursak may be more physical, but he was also weaker on his skates and on the boards, and less effective overall.

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01-18-2013, 08:05 AM
  #47
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25 games is not a good view, but i did not see anything special about mursak. mursak may be more physical, but he was also weaker on his skates and on the boards, and less effective overall.
You didn't see anything because his ankle was broken just before the season start and he never get it going before the season end. Then after a summer break, Mursak flourished in Europe.

Just give him a 2nd chance. If he blows his chance now when healthy, and won't be valuable to our team, then I'll join your party that we have to go on with other players.

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01-18-2013, 08:38 AM
  #48
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With Eaves back, Emmerton or Mursak will either be waived or traded once Helm comes back.

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01-20-2013, 05:27 AM
  #49
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Mursak injured his shoulder, only 2:34 of icetime and out of the game.

Some guys have just bad luck and this could be the finalizer for his NHL career. He really needed a good start and healthy season, and here we are again.

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01-20-2013, 05:09 PM
  #50
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Mursak should get a chance, don't really care much what happens to Emmerton. I think he is better out on the wing and can actually play for a couple different teams in the league. But in the numbers game in Detroit, he is easily the first one I would like to see cast out. I would also get rid of Miller before Mursak.
I tend to agree. Emmerton is a solid player who does not excel at any particular aspect of the game.

I like Mursak. He has better than average speed, which is something the Wings can use, and he has better than average skill. On a team with the right mix of size, speed, and skill, Mursak can make a meaningful contribution. Nevertheless, as the Wings are currently constituted, Mursak might not fit in well.

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