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Acq/ Rost. Bldg./ Cap Part XVI

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Old
01-17-2013, 02:50 PM
  #576
Halpysback
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Ok before I go, here's 2 foods for thought

Food 1:

tx keeps linking [Ovechkin, Backstrom] to [Richards, Carter]. Other than both sets being marquee players, it's not accurate at all. If you actually want to force a comparison between the teams, most accurate from a hockey perspective would be:

Ovechkin - Briere
Backstrom - Giroux
Carter - Semin
Richards - Green and Laich (super forced but we don't really have a good comparable).

Ovechkin and Briere are both top 10 playoff performers in the league, possibly top 5 on a given season. Both lack defense but are exceptionally good at driving offensive play in the postseason, Briere even moreso than Ovechkin at this point. In the regular season Ovechkin kills Briere, but I only care about the regular season as far as it gets me into the upper half of the conference by playoff time.

Giroux and Backstrom are basically 2 shades of the same player, with each slightly beating out the other on different facets.

Semin and Carter, likewise, more or less same player. Both fast snipers averse to physical contact that have been accused of taking games off. Carter plays C and is better defensively, but they're close enough

We don't really have a good comparable for Richards but I'd go with Green, since he's the last young gun marquee guy. In terms of forwards Laich is a very poor man's Richards.

Food 2:

Holmgren traded his Jeff Carter for 2 players, each of whom looks to be developing into either a better player than Jeff Carter was or close enough to him that it's gonna be a wash when all are in their prime. Both are very young, cost controlled and play styles that fit with the team identity at a high level.

McPhee just let his Jeff Carter walk, and traded 2 useful assets to replace him with another Jeff Carter.

Who's better at asset management now?


Last edited by Halpysback: 01-17-2013 at 06:40 PM.
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01-17-2013, 02:51 PM
  #577
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Originally Posted by Ridley Simon View Post
LOL. NOT. THE. POINT.

GO back and see where this all started. Halpysback wants to shake up this team by trading some of our chips for some bonafide NHL stars.

That theory makes sense, to me.

TXPD lamented that it didnt help the Flyers last year. Arguably its not the same thing, as the Flyers actually traded the NHL stars for young pieces. We'd do the opposite (kinda like what the LA Kings did, and voila! for them).

Caps need to *really* start going for the brass ring as we are knee deep in Ovechkin and Backstrom's primes. They ain't getting better, I wouldnt think.

So lets augment the line up to play towards that, instead of sitting on our thumbs.

THAT was halpysback's point, and Tex and I hi-jacked this thread over whether or not the Flyers have had a more viable past/present than we do (they do, I think)
Not just NHL stars, but NHL stars who are younger than half our core.

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01-17-2013, 02:52 PM
  #578
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Originally Posted by Halpysback View Post
Depends. Did they do something to force Leonsis's hand? If so, what are we getting back?

I'd be absolutely thrilled if he traded Green and Laich on consecutive days and got a Couturier and Voracek for Green and a solid top 4 defenseman for Laich. If you notice Philly was a much improved team from 2010-2011. And that's with Bryzgalov being a bigger bust than anyone thought he'd be.
You severly overrate our players.

While third line centers does hold some value in todays game, Laich is not a pure center, which cripples a lot of his value to other teams. Even if we play with the thought that he was a pure 3C, he would never return a top 4 D-man in a trade.

Green has little to no value at this point. I wouldn't want to trade him even if he did! With his injury record he will have to show that he can stay healthy, or GM's would simply shy away by simply gazing upon his huge contract.

And please stop making a fool out of yourself when referring to Bryzgalov as a bust in Philly. He ended the year just a few saves shy of 91%, and that with the teams top D-man in Pronger injured for half a season. Add to that a horrible bottom pairing, that played so awful, that Holmgren had to stop the bleeding by acquiring Grossman at the deadline. The only thing bad about Bryz is his mastodont contract, which can only be blamed upon Holmgren, not Bryz.

And while we are at it, Bryz playoff performance against Pittsburgh does not count as a valid argument. There's no goalie in the world capable of staying above 90% save efficiency, when the whole team in front of you does not play any defense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Halpysback View Post
This is all fantasy obviously (like every single thing ever posted on this board). I showed you the players going out, and the players coming in. If you see any defects with the projected lineup feel free to point them out. I think it's the best lineup in the league for the next 3 years at least. All players gotten back would be long term acquisitions. This isn't trading for Pronger to let him walk after a year (which you'd have been fine for, I'd have been too). Hershey would be bad, but Pittsburgh, Philly, SJ and LA did fine with bare cupboards when they were in win now modes. It certainly didn't cripple them.
It's rarely a good idea to lock up too much money in just a few players. It always has a way to come back and haunt you at some point.

I also don't believe that acquiring tons of star players increases your chances of playoff success. Team depth, luck in avoiding injuries as well as players finding their best game at the right time, those are all attributes which does win you cups.

I actually prefer GMGM's idea of consistently contending year after year, rather than going all in, just to increase the chances of winning in one lone season. The rules of logic dictates that if you try over and over again, you will eventually be successful.

I rather keep contending, allowing for our youngsters to eventually take the spots of our current stars, more so than to go all in and then watch us miss the playoffs for a decade or more with a completely worthless prospect pool and crap shoot draft picks. We have all seen what happened to franchises like Toronto. I would prefer if we stayed away from such a fate, and instead kept adding to our prospect pool, instead tweaking our lineup trading players like Schultz, Hamrlik and Erskine etc for roster players of similar value, who might do better in our system.

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01-17-2013, 03:09 PM
  #579
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Originally Posted by MiKE5889 View Post
You severly overrate our players.

While third line centers does hold some value in todays game, Laich is not a pure center, which cripples a lot of his value to other teams. Even if we play with the thought that he was a pure 3C, he would never return a top 4 D-man in a trade.

Green has little to no value at this point. I wouldn't want to trade him even if he did! With his injury record he will have to show that he can stay healthy, or GM's would simply shy away by simply gazing upon his huge contract.

And please stop making a fool out of yourself when referring to Bryzgalov as a bust in Philly. He ended the year just a few saves shy of 91%, and that with the teams top D-man in Pronger injured for half a season. Add to that a horrible bottom pairing, that played so awful, that Holmgren had to stop the bleeding by acquiring Grossman at the deadline. The only thing bad about Bryz is his mastodont contract, which can only be blamed upon Holmgren, not Bryz.

And while we are at it, Bryz playoff performance against Pittsburgh does not count as a valid argument. There's no goalie in the world capable of staying above 90% save efficiency, when the whole team in front of you does not play any defense.
1. Bryzgalov had a good March, but was underwhelming the rest of the year. Don't argue this point if you don't want to look stupid. He admitted as much. His teammates admitted as much. His management admitted as much. Philly did not sign him to that contract for him to have the year he had last year. If he has a repeat of that year he gets bought out this summer. Save this post if you don't believe me.

2. His performance against Pittsburgh absolutely counts as a valid argument. Varlamov had no better defense with him when he shone against Pittsburgh. Bryzgalov was hung out to dry on many goals but his lateral movement was Ray Emery bad and he let in a lot of easy, stoppable goals. I look at stats and all but in the end I let my eyes cast the final vote, and Bryzgalov was not playing good hockey no matter what his Save % was (which it was probably bad but I don't need to know to see that he was bad). Same with Fleury.


Quote:
It's rarely a good idea to lock up too much money in just a few players. It always has a way to come back and haunt you at some point.

I also don't believe that acquiring tons of star players increases your chances of playoff success. Team depth, luck in avoiding injuries as well as players finding their best game at the right time, those are all attributes which does win you cups.

I actually prefer GMGM's idea of consistently contending year after year, rather than going all in, just to increase the chances of winning in one lone season. The rules of logic dictates that if you try over and over again, you will eventually be successful.

I rather keep contending, allowing for our youngsters to eventually take the spots of our current stars, more so than to go all in and then watch us miss the playoffs for a decade or more with a completely worthless prospect pool and crap shoot draft picks. We have all seen what happened to franchises like Toronto. I would prefer if we stayed away from such a fate, and instead kept adding to our prospect pool, instead tweaking our lineup trading players like Schultz, Erskine etc for roster players of similar value, who might do better in our system.
Teams that have tons of money locked up in a few players:

Pittsburgh (Crosby 8.7, Malkin 8.7, Neal 5, Fleury 5, Martin 5, and they were gonna give Staal 5.5 for life)

LA Kings (Kopitar 6.7, Doughty 7, Quick 5.5, Richards 5.75, Carter 5.3, then a ton of players making 3.5-4)

San Jose Sharks (Thornton 7, Marleau 6.9, Boyle 6.66, Burns 5.75, Havlat 5, Pavelski/Niemi close to 4)

Detroit Red Wings during their dominant post lockout cup runs (Datsyuk 6.7, Lidstrom 7.5, Rafalski 6. Hossa 7 for one year, Zetterberg bumping up to 6. Tons of players in the 3-4 range)

Cup Finals Flyers (Richards 5.75, Carter 5, Briere 6.7, Pronger 6.25, Gagne 5, Hartnell 4.25, Timonen 6.7 I believe)

Cup winning Hawks (Campell 7, Hossa 5.3, Huet 5.5 (total waste) a ton of 3 million + players). Had both Huet and Khabibulin the year before when they want to the WCF.

Cup winning Bruins (Chara, Thomas, Lucic, Horton, Krejci, Bergeron)

Cup finalist Canucks (Sedin, Sedin, Kesler, Hamhius, Bieksa, Luongo)

This year's paper cup winner Rangers (Nash 7.8, Gaborik 7.5, Richards 6.7, Callahan 4.5, Lundqvist 6, Staal, Girardi 4, Drury/Redden buyout like 4). Plus their crappy role players are overpaid since it's Sather.

You can nitpick the specifics of each individual team but having lots of good players strongly correlates to success as long as the team chooses the right players, even if they are paid accordingly. I really can't think of better potentially available playoff players then Benn, O'Reilly or Ryan who are also young enough to build with long term.

Having lots of money spent on good players is the only thing that will push you over the top if you know what you are doing. You can finagle depth with smart offseason signings, later round drafts or trades. There are tons of suitable depth players like Wolski and Fehr looking to try and earn a spot on great teams. Do you think Penguins are crying that they have no good center prospects in the CHL or WBS?

Either way, I'd think if we did this we'd have Benn signed for 8 years/5.75 cap hit and O'Reilly for 5 years 4.25 cap hit. Very manageable. We have Ward, Schultz and Laich combined making more. Let that sink in.


Last edited by Halpysback: 01-17-2013 at 03:17 PM.
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Old
01-17-2013, 03:12 PM
  #580
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Halpysback View Post
I was thinking more like Kings.

Who should we emulate though?

There's a pretty reliable formula for getting to the conference finals, beyond that it's a coin flip that favors the roster that can still throw a check without collapsing in pain.
Speaking of the Kings watching the NHL Network replays of the Devils/Kings series to get a feel for the Devil's system again kept getting drawn to the King's play and how they pressured all over the f'ing ice and in every zone. Devil's seemed a bit undersized.

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01-17-2013, 03:14 PM
  #581
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thats myopic
Lol.

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01-17-2013, 03:19 PM
  #582
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Benn got resigned today so cross his name off the wish list

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01-17-2013, 03:24 PM
  #583
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Originally Posted by Ovechkins Wodka View Post
Benn got resigned today so cross his name off the wish list
Well yeah. Not one of these trades was gonna happen in a million years. McPhee would rather cut his nuts off with the rustiest potato peeler in Burke's mansion than trade a prospect who has the faintest glimmer of a chance of being top 6 or top 4 one day.

That said, do you have a source for it? I haven't seen it anywhere.

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01-17-2013, 03:37 PM
  #584
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If we're going to trade for/offersheet any rfa, I'm hoping for ROR.

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01-17-2013, 04:31 PM
  #585
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Originally Posted by Capitlols View Post
If we're going to trade for/offersheet any rfa, I'm hoping for ROR.
Can't. Alzner gets 6 mil if we do. Need to make a fair trade for once.

I've got a total conspiracy theory about the O'Reilly situation too. Looking at the roster Avs don't really need him. They have McGinn-Stastny-Jones, Duchene for 2C, and a combination of Landeskog, Downie, Parenteau and Hejduk for wingers, with Olver probably good enough to be a stopgap 3C. Without him they're still fairly gritty, fairly good offensively and fairly good defensively.

What they do need though, is a top pairing LD. No team in the league needs a top pairing LD as badly as them.

I think Sherman is lowballing O'Reilly on purpose to either get a team to jump on a trade proposal offering LD (the way Burke jumped on Kessel), say O'Reilly for Kulikov or Gormley+, or get a team with young promising LDs coming up to offersheet him (like us, or I dunno Rangers or Red Wings maybe).

I'd stay clear of Sherman's traps.


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01-17-2013, 05:28 PM
  #586
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Redden bought out, now a UFA.

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01-17-2013, 05:59 PM
  #587
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Originally Posted by Halpysback View Post
It's an expression. I meant dude of his skill level who isn't a huge Dbag.

Obviously not Crosby Crosby but... Stamkos? Nah, we hate him too. Malkin?

I'd take the 4 players we're getting back over any single player in the league in terms of building a winning team though.
So much awesome !

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01-18-2013, 07:36 AM
  #588
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We all know this GM does nothing special to put this team over the top. Ovi continues to get older and banged up with little help from our big bodies and what I mean of big bodies is Hendricks. GM has done little for our skill players to get space on the ice. the defense will again be a weak aspect of the team with Schultz still in the top 6.

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01-18-2013, 08:31 AM
  #589
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good to know life is consistant. the caps still suck

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01-18-2013, 08:35 AM
  #590
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Call me crazy, but I think they have a good season and playoff run.

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01-18-2013, 08:56 AM
  #591
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FWIW, The Hockey News predictions for the season have the Caps winning the SE and coming in third in the Eastern Conference.
1. Pittsburgh
2. Boston
3. Washington
4. NY Rangers
5. Philadelphia
6. Tampa Bay
7. Buffalo
8. Ottawa
9. Carolina
10. Florida
11. NJ Devils
12. Toronto
13. Montreal
14. Winnipeg
15. NY Islanders


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01-18-2013, 09:02 AM
  #592
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any chance that the caps trade 7 roster players and their top recent draft picks? no. next?
Plus their next two 1st rounders...

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01-18-2013, 09:06 AM
  #593
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What about the 7th and 8th spots?

I know SI doesn't know dick about the NHL. They predicted 4 team out of the Atlantic to make the playoffs(NJ, PITT, PHI, NYR).

I think with the way the NHL schedule is constructed this year there is no way more than 3 teams in each division can make the 'loffs. Too much beating up on eachother, unless there are a lot of 3 point games.

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01-18-2013, 09:20 AM
  #594
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Call me crazy, but I think they have a good season and playoff run.
Me too....honestly ever since NobodyBeatsTheWiz came out and said a shortened season cheapens a Cup win, I've expected us to win it this year.


Too bad he won't be able to enjoy our first Cup!

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01-18-2013, 09:38 AM
  #595
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It just feels weird right now. Like, no one is talking about the Caps and for the most part the main guys are healthy and ready to go (aside from Laich). New coaching staff, but Oates seems to know whats he's doing and with Hunter and Johansson back there...I have some hope they know how to work things with this roster.

Finally have a 2nd line center and less enigmatic winger playing up there with a chance to re-light his career.

Plenty of depth on the blue line...dont have the elite shut down guy they need, but Carlson-Alzner will constantly be improving and perhaps Green stays healthy.

The tending is a question...but in Holtby we trust.

I dunno. I have a vibe man. Its like when they do things when we dont expect them. I wasn't expecting a season...so here we go.

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01-18-2013, 09:44 AM
  #596
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Plenty of depth on the blue line...dont have the elite shut down guy they need, but Carlson-Alzner will constantly be improving and perhaps Green stays healthy.
Channeling MLK ahead of his holiday, I have a dream.

Poti-Green
Alzner-Carlson
Hamrlik-Orlov
Erskine
Schultz

If we ever get healthy, THIS COULD REALLY HAPPEN

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01-18-2013, 09:58 AM
  #597
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Channeling MLK ahead of his holiday, I have a dream.

Poti-Green
Alzner-Carlson
Hamrlik-Orlov
Erskine
Schultz

If we ever get healthy, THIS COULD REALLY HAPPEN
All they need is Orlov back. I don't know that Poti is ready for top pair minutes, but i get the impression he could take sheltered (matched) second pair duty or third pair work right now. With Hillen also in the mix, he could be Hamrlik's stopgap partner. If Poti is anywhere near what he used to be, a depth defenseman has to be on the way out. Think Schultz for a mid-late pick to a Western team in need of depth.

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01-18-2013, 10:54 AM
  #598
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FWIW, The Hockey News predictions for the season have the Caps winning the SE and coming in third in the Eastern Conference.
1. Pittsburgh
2. Boston
3. Washington
4. NY Rangers
5. Philadelphia
6. Tampa Bay
7. Buffalo
8. Ottawa
9. Carolina
10. Florida
11. NJ Devils
12. Toronto
13. Montreal
14. Winnipeg
15. NY Islanders
I kind of like those.

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01-18-2013, 11:00 AM
  #599
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Channeling MLK ahead of his holiday, I have a dream.

Poti-Green
Alzner-Carlson
Hamrlik-Orlov
Erskine
Schultz

If we ever get healthy, THIS COULD REALLY HAPPEN
That could actually work!

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01-18-2013, 11:30 AM
  #600
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as has always been the case with the capitals since the lockout, their season will depend on the growth and improved performance of young players without a lenthy enough track record to have confidence in what their season might look like.

i think its reasonable for the caps to put up two legit norris trophy finalists this season, green and carlson. its possible also that they both regress.

its possible that holtby and neuvirth could be one of the 5 best goalie tandems in the league and its possible one or both could regress.

for my money, tell me how green, carlson, alzner, holtby and neuvirth do and we see how the caps do.

if green, alzner and carlson play at their best levels or improved, the caps have a dominating defense corp. if you combine that with holtby and neuvirth at their to date best levels of play, their overall goals against and transition offense will be startling.

btw...if poti is healthy enough to skate mike green's even strenth minutes, the caps are going to be really good. last time we saw tom poti healthy, he was a rock.

i think the upside is a cup. but as i said, all these players are question marks. green because he is had been a mess overall and carlson, alzner, holtby and neuvirth because only the least impactful of the four has had two good nhl seasons back to back.

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