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P.K. Subban Thread - Mk III - Unsigned Edition

View Poll Results: Who should break first
Bergevin 61 25.00%
Subban 183 75.00%
Voters: 244. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
01-18-2013, 09:59 AM
  #201
Blind Gardien
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 417 View Post
Do you want to have to re-sign this guy when he's entering his prime? Or would you rather have him signed at 4.5M or 5M DURING his prime?
I'm presuming it's impossible to have him signed at 4.5M or 5M DURING his prime, though.

But that's why I have the $50M/8yr $5-5-6-6-7-7-7-7M deal on the table, basically. I'm acknowledging my belief that he'll be worth the moon, essentially, in his prime, and willing to put that in writing. And have a slight premium on his cap hit in the meantime. Basically, it's the bridge deal already at $5M for two years, plus an extension for 6 more years that ought to look pretty generous from here, but actually, if he ends up being as good as I expect, will only be "fair" for what he does at the time. Maybe even a little bit of a bargain near the end if inflation is strong.

For me, he could have that, or... just the $5-5M 2-year deal now. I don't see why he wouldn't take the 8-years instead though, since term and security should be of value there.

Of course, obviously the Habs are offering numbers a lot lower than mine. Obviously? Well, they must be... I would be rather shocked and disappointed if PK's camp wants something bigger than what my offers would be.

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01-18-2013, 10:00 AM
  #202
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Originally Posted by 2 Chainz View Post
Ok so give him a bridge contract for 2 years at $4.5 million and then after that have to pay him $7-8 million after he's even more improved?
Can you imagine the reactions on this board if 2 years from now PK Subban signs a
8yr 64M contract?

lol

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01-18-2013, 10:02 AM
  #203
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Originally Posted by 2 Chainz View Post
Ok so give him a bridge contract for 2 years at $4.5 million and then after that have to pay him $7-8 million after he's even more improved?
I would like it to be closer to 4 million for 2 years (to fit under the cap this year) but would be fine with 7-8 million after that IF AND ONLY IF he establishes himself during those two years as a regular Norris candidate. If not he will be worth less than that.

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01-18-2013, 10:03 AM
  #204
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
Can you imagine the reactions on this board if 2 years from now PK Subban signs a
8yr 64M contract?

lol
I think the reaction would be fine if he's nominated for the Norris! If not he gets less. It's only fair.

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01-18-2013, 10:03 AM
  #205
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This thing eerily reminds me of the whole Halak Price situation. On one side you have people who do not like PK and would ship him out of here at any moment, then you have the PK fan boys (like my self I may add) and would do anything to keep him here.

I just can't see MB's first major move as GM is to trade Subban, he would be hunted down if that were to happen.

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01-18-2013, 10:04 AM
  #206
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Just noticed the attached poll. It's weird, because, well we really have no idea what PK is asking for or what Bergevin is offering. It's a total vacuum of information, and there's no way to seriously answer the poll question without that information.

But, answering "unseriously"... I will just go with my gut feeling that Bergevin is lowballing... maybe not severely, but at least relative to my own valuation of Subban (i.e. see $50M/8yrs), so answer the poll as: Bergevin should crack first. But really, who knows.

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01-18-2013, 10:04 AM
  #207
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 417 View Post
Letang signed his extension 3 years ago...the cap if i'm not mistaken was around
54M (not entirely sure).

The inflaction 'excuse' is not crap...it's quite relevant actually and must always been takent into consideration.
Well technically speaking, it's not a crap excuse.

When Letang signed his contract, the Pens based it on a salary cap of around $64 M and with growing revenues YoY. That's pretty much the case this year but without the the same amount of expected growth going forward due to the negative effects of the lock out.

Add that to the 7% reduction in salaries, and it's pretty unreasonable to expect to get paid the same amount of money after the new CBA as he would have received previously.

Simply put, he'd probably have been better signing last year assuming Bergy doesn't completely wet the bed and cave into their every demand, which is dubtful considering this is his first real test as a GM and he'll want to set the tone for all the the other players and agents mving forward.

What I think is even more dangerous is that they're both playing a game of chicken on who needs whom, more. PK will hope the Habs get off to a bad start and will come crawling back to get him back in the line up. Problem with that is, that in a shortened season, if you're out of it in the first 10 games, the year is already over. At that point, you're probably better off with the tank card and trying to get a high draft pick than you are bringing PK back into the line up. That's how I'd play it if I were a GM.

Flip side is that the Habs get off to a hot start and PK comes back and bends on his demands. Given Meehan is his agent, I'm not sure I see that happening either.

Bottom line, this could be a very tumultuous period and it might not result in PK signing with us at all. In the next little while, I'm sure we'll start to hear trade rumours start to float around, especially for a top end team who desperatly needs defensive help. Can anyone say Philadelphia??

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01-18-2013, 10:05 AM
  #208
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Originally Posted by 2 Chainz View Post
Yet some people around here want to trade him because of his "attitude" for Jamie Benn who said before he wants to stay as far away from Canada as possible to play..
Did he literally say that? Proof? I think it's more him not wanting to be in the spotlight, than him playing for a Canadian team. Not everyone feels comfortable speaking in front of a camera or simply socializing with others. I, for one, feel totally uncomfortable speaking in somewhat crowded places (class or whatever) and stay away from these circumstances.

Just saying! I don't think Jamie Benn has an attitude issue, nor does Subban. They probably are two completely opposite individuals in relation to being in the spotlight and socialization.

Anyways, sucks not having Subban in the starting line-up Saturday.

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01-18-2013, 10:06 AM
  #209
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
Have you followed sports and contracts oh I don't know...the last 20 years?

There is a laundry list of athletes, in ALL sports who get paid based on potential and promise and not entirely on what they've proven.

I've seen several posters mention the same thing...and it's comletely baffling to me
This has not been routine in hockey though. It's very recent that very young players get long term big money contracts. Have you been following hockey contracts?

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01-18-2013, 10:08 AM
  #210
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 417 View Post
The same people who want PK to accept a 'bridge deal' today...are the same one's who are going to be up in arms 2 years from now when PK Subban is asking for the moon.

Print it!
If he asks for the moon, but didn't deliver a Norris trophy season the year prior I'll most definitely be up in arms.

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01-18-2013, 10:10 AM
  #211
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Originally Posted by onebighockeyfan View Post
I would like it to be closer to 4 million for 2 years (to fit under the cap this year) but would be fine with 7-8 million after that IF AND ONLY IF he establishes himself during those two years as a regular Norris candidate. If not he will be worth less than that.
In a cap league you need to get your players locked up on long-term deals at friendlier cap hits to help you build your team in the future. For example a couple contracts previously mentioned a page back are Letang and Staal, both were locked up 2-3 years back before they broke out and improved even more and their deals are currently bargains and allow their teams to retain their stars and add free agents.

Signing Subban right now to a long-term deal could look really good in the future, for example if he's making say $5.5 million a year while comparable players could be making $7-7.5 million a year say 3 years down the road. There is always the risk in signing him long-term but in the WORST case scenario if Subban doesn't progress there will always be teams will to take a chance on a guy with Subban's skill and a contract of $5.5 million per year wouldn't hold teams back from it.

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Old
01-18-2013, 10:11 AM
  #212
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Quote:
Originally Posted by onebighockeyfan View Post
I think the reaction would be fine if he's nominated for the Norris! If not he gets less. It's only fair.
Plenty of great NHL defensman don't get nominated for Norris trophies...so sorry, I don't buy that.

We're in the era that every average fan is a salary cap specialist...2 years from now, if he signs the bridge deal that you want (2yrs 8M) then he'll ask for the moon, and it won't matter what he would have accomplished by then, people will still complain that he wants to get paid too much money

That's just how things are now

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01-18-2013, 10:12 AM
  #213
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Originally Posted by onebighockeyfan View Post
This has not been routine in hockey though. It's very recent that very young players get long term big money contracts. Have you been following hockey contracts?
Well if it's recent...then I guess that's the new trend (though I don't agree with that)

So why should things be any different for PK?

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01-18-2013, 10:15 AM
  #214
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
I'm presuming it's impossible to have him signed at 4.5M or 5M DURING his prime, though.

But that's why I have the $50M/8yr $5-5-6-6-7-7-7-7M deal on the table, basically. I'm acknowledging my belief that he'll be worth the moon, essentially, in his prime, and willing to put that in writing. And have a slight premium on his cap hit in the meantime. Basically, it's the bridge deal already at $5M for two years, plus an extension for 6 more years that ought to look pretty generous from here, but actually, if he ends up being as good as I expect, will only be "fair" for what he does at the time. Maybe even a little bit of a bargain near the end if inflation is strong.

For me, he could have that, or... just the $5-5M 2-year deal now. I don't see why he wouldn't take the 8-years instead though, since term and security should be of value there.

Of course, obviously the Habs are offering numbers a lot lower than mine. Obviously? Well, they must be... I would be rather shocked and disappointed if PK's camp wants something bigger than what my offers would be.
Agreed with you post...I'd have no problem with that type of deal, 8yr 50M, right now.

I really don't think it would be beneficial to the Habs to nickel & dime Subban right now just to ease cap restrictions in the short term.

When you evaluate your team, you have to figure out who fits in short/medium/long term

And to me, it's obvious PK lands in the long term vision of things.

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01-18-2013, 10:16 AM
  #215
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
Plenty of great NHL defensman don't get nominated for Norris trophies...so sorry, I don't buy that.

We're in the era that every average fan is a salary cap specialist...2 years from now, if he signs the bridge deal that you want (2yrs 8M) then he'll ask for the moon, and it won't matter what he would have accomplished by then, people will still complain that he wants to get paid too much money

That's just how things are now
Those that don't get nominated for the Norris don't make 8 million either!!!

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01-18-2013, 10:18 AM
  #216
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Originally Posted by onebighockeyfan View Post
Those that don't get nominated for the Norris don't make 8 million either!!!
Was Drew Doughty nominated for the Norris last year?

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01-18-2013, 10:18 AM
  #217
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
Well if it's recent...then I guess that's the new trend (though I don't agree with that)

So why should things be any different for PK?
Because he only had two good seasons. It is very early. But obviously you see things differently.

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01-18-2013, 10:20 AM
  #218
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Because he only had two good seasons. It is very early. But obviously you see things differently.
He's had more than that, you're also missing a breakout performance as a rookie in the playoffs...but let's put that aside for a second

All it takes these days is two good season, a whole lot of potential...and you get PAID.

This is the NHL today, this is partly what the NHLPA was fighting for (and what owners were fighting against).

Don't blame PK for taking advantage of what's afforded to him in the CBA.

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01-18-2013, 10:21 AM
  #219
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Was Drew Doughty nominated for the Norris last year?
Erik Karlesson was, 6.5 million cap hit.

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01-18-2013, 10:23 AM
  #220
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Originally Posted by onebighockeyfan View Post
Erik Karlesson was, 6.5 million cap hit.
Wrong...he signed that deal AFTER (or maybe the day before) he got the Norris trophy

and either way, I didn't say Erik Karlsson...I said Drew Doughty

I said plenty of great dmen get paid without getting nominated for the Norris.

You're totally missing the point

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01-18-2013, 10:24 AM
  #221
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
He's had more than that, you're also missing a breakout performance as a rookie in the playoffs...but let's put that aside for a second

All it takes these days is two good season, a whole lot of potential...and you get PAID.

This is the NHL today, this is partly what the NHLPA was fighting for (and what owners were fighting against).

Don't blame PK for taking advantage of what's afforded to him in the CBA.
Dude, you are passionate about this aren't you. PKs a great player, I agree.

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01-18-2013, 10:27 AM
  #222
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Originally Posted by onebighockeyfan View Post
Dude, you are passionate about this aren't you. PKs a great player, I agree.
I debate anything I believe in with passion...and I feel fans who criticise PK for holding out really aren't looking at the entire picture..

that's not to say that I'm against Bergevin and his stance (I don't know enough to make that claim).

I just feel it's unfortunate so many people resent him, just because he believes he should be compensated for what he thinks is fair.

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01-18-2013, 10:27 AM
  #223
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Wrong...he signed that deal AFTER (or maybe the day before) he got the Norris trophy

and either way, I didn't say Erik Karlsson...I said Drew Doughty

I said plenty of great dmen get paid without getting nominated for the Norris.

You're totally missing the point
Doughty was not nominated, you are right. He did have a 59 point +20 season though and played 3 full seasons before getting his big contract. This is arguably better than Subban so far. But I guess you'll argue that this is irrelevant.

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01-18-2013, 10:28 AM
  #224
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I debate anything I believe in with passion...and I feel fans who criticise PK for holding out really aren't looking at the entire picture..

that's not to say that I'm against Bergevin and his stance (I don't know enough to make that claim).

I just feel it's unfortunate so many people resent him, just because he believes he should be compensated for what he thinks is fair.
I don't resent him!!! I just think he should accept a bridge contract!

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01-18-2013, 10:28 AM
  #225
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Doughty was not nominated, you are right. He did have a 59 point +20 season though and played 3 full seasons before getting his big contract. This is arguably better than Subban so far. But I guess you'll argue that this is irrelevant.
Not at all...it is very relevant, and I don't think that Subban should get Drew Doughty money. I've never agreed with that.

But him seeking a long term deal in the 5M range, is more than fair based on how the Habs have used him, will use him and also how his game will continue to grow.

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