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P.K. Subban Thread - Mk III - Unsigned Edition

View Poll Results: Who should break first
Bergevin 61 25.00%
Subban 183 75.00%
Voters: 244. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
01-18-2013, 10:30 AM
  #226
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I don't resent him!!! I just think he should accept a bridge contract!
That's fair...but do you think he should accept a bridge contract that pays him as though he's the 4th best dman on the team, despite the fact that they'll use him as their #1?

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01-18-2013, 10:30 AM
  #227
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Not at all...it is very relevant, and I don't think that Subban should get Drew Doughty money. I've never agreed with that.

But him seeking a long term deal in the 5M range, is more than fair based on how the Habs have used him, will use him and also how his game will continue to grow.
Long-term 5 year can make sense. I'm feeling the Subban clan is asking for more than that though and that's part of the problem.

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01-18-2013, 10:35 AM
  #228
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Long-term 5 year can make sense. I'm feeling the Subban clan is asking for more than that though and that's part of the problem.
Maybe? We will never really know...

But let me ask you this, when you negotiate for something, anything...do you come in with your bottom line offer right away? Or do you come high, so you can settle in on what you actually want?

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01-18-2013, 10:37 AM
  #229
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That's fair...but do you think he should accept a bridge contract that pays him as though he's the 4th best dman on the team, despite the fact that they'll use him as their #1?
If he took the #1D away from a healthy Markov I would say yes. Kaberle also got 13 or so 30+ point years so he kinda deserves is 4.5 million. Short term I seem him at ~ 4 million.

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01-18-2013, 10:39 AM
  #230
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Maybe? We will never really know...

But let me ask you this, when you negotiate for something, anything...do you come in with your bottom line offer right away? Or do you come high, so you can settle in on what you actually want?
You obviously start higher but yu have to get the deal done before the beginning of the season!

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01-18-2013, 10:39 AM
  #231
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You obviously start higher but yu have to get the deal done before the beginning of the season!
Takes 2 sides to get a deal done...

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01-18-2013, 10:40 AM
  #232
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If he took the #1D away from a healthy Markov I would say yes. Kaberle also got 13 or so 30+ point years so he kinda deserves is 4.5 million. Short term I seem him at ~ 4 million.
I'm as big a fan of Markov as anyone here, check my post history if you don't believe me...

But at this point, I think Markov is the one who has to prove that he can re-claim his #1 spot

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01-18-2013, 10:42 AM
  #233
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I'm as big a fan of Markov as anyone here, check my post history if you don't believe me...

But at this point, I think Markov is the one who has to prove that he can re-claim his #1 spot
So short term-contract to see if Subban keeps his #1 spot

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01-18-2013, 10:42 AM
  #234
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Read my previous post. I will not have a problem with that IF he's got the stats and play to be the highest paid D in the league in two years so be it.
I'm with this guy.

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01-18-2013, 10:44 AM
  #235
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I think the reaction would be fine if he's nominated for the Norris! If not he gets less. It's only fair.
If he is winning Norris trophies I wouldn't mind paying him the cash either.

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01-18-2013, 10:46 AM
  #236
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If he is winning Norris trophies I wouldn't mind paying him the cash either.
He could conceivably play at a Norris level the next two years and not even get nominated...(see Markov pre-injury)

Will you still be ok with paying him the cash then?

Norris trophy is and trophies in general, are often popularity contest...it's pretty silly to base whether or not a player deserves a raise based solely on an arbitrary voting process.

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01-18-2013, 10:47 AM
  #237
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I hope he's signed before tomorrow's game...

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01-18-2013, 10:47 AM
  #238
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That's fair...but do you think he should accept a bridge contract that pays him as though he's the 4th best dman on the team, despite the fact that they'll use him as their #1?
Yep, personally I do. Reason being is that he will get big dollars in next negotiations with little trouble imo. Time will tell, but if he is as great as everybody here anticipates then I don't think it should be a problem.

There might be other teams willing to roll the dice right now (Edmonton, etc) and that's fine if that's how they want to do things.

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01-18-2013, 10:50 AM
  #239
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He could conceivably play at a Norris level the next two years and not even get nominated...(see Markov pre-injury)

Will you still be ok with paying him the cash then?

Norris trophy is and trophies in general, are often popularity contest...it's pretty silly to base whether or not a player deserves a raise based solely on an arbitrary voting process.
Popularity isn't the only reason though...it might factor in but points are usually there too, and at that point I have no problem paying up, not at all.

You can book it, if PK becomes a Norris trophy candidate before his long-term deal then I will be all over MB to give him his money. But if MB gets his way then he will have the right to match any contract offer at that point too...it's simply protecting your investment from all sides, it's pretty brilliant imo. Giving too much money too soon to a player could hurt them, but short term means the player has to perform well to be paid the big money. PK has proven a lot but MB is simply in no hurry because he doesn't have to.

I also believe club expectations of the team factor into this, but that is just my opinion. I believe if we were a contending team PK would be in camp right now.

Doing it the way MB is doing it is simply a more cautious approach and factoring in the way things could go so wrong in Montreal, I agree with him. Bottom line, this is MB's philosophy and he deserves a chance to see it through.

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01-18-2013, 10:52 AM
  #240
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Yep, personally I do. Reason being is that he will get big dollars in next negotiations with little trouble imo. Time will tell, but if he is as great as everybody here anticipates then I don't think it should be a problem.

There might be other teams willing to roll the dice right now (Edmonton, etc) and that's fine if that's how they want to do things.
Easy to say when you're a fan....

But be honest, and put yourself in his shoes for a second...would you REALLY think that's fair?

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01-18-2013, 10:58 AM
  #241
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Easy to say when you're a fan....

But be honest, and put yourself in his shoes for a second...would you REALLY think that's fair?
Yes, absolutely.

It's not uncommon and not un-like reality if you think about it. In a regular job people get pay increases every year, simply being at a company for 30 years means you should be making quite a bit, even if you don't get huge increases, it adds up. And younger employees that are far better at what you do don't get as much. They are within their right to find a new job, totally. But in the NHL you are owned by your team until you're 27 years old (unless you enter the league at 18 and that becomes 25). That is the leverage the habs have. When RFAs go to arbitration they are not allowed to look at money given to UFAs...similar principle at play here...not exactly the same but similar.

I'm not saying that it's right, but that's the way it works, and if the habs haven't signed him yet then it's for a particular reason of some sort and PK has little leverage in this game. Now of course if the crowd chants for PK and the team nose-dives then will be the true test of MB's will and philosophy and how much he is willing to shift it...

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01-18-2013, 11:03 AM
  #242
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Originally Posted by Capitano View Post
Yes, absolutely.

It's not uncommon and not un-like reality if you think about it. In a regular job people get pay increases every year, simply being at a company for 30 years means you should be making quite a bit, even if you don't get huge increases, it adds up. And younger employees that are far better at what you do don't get as much. They are within their right to find a new job, totally. But in the NHL you are owned by your team until you're 27 years old (unless you enter the league at 18 and that becomes 25). That is the leverage the habs have. When RFAs go to arbitration they are not allowed to look at money given to UFAs...similar principle at play here...not exactly the same but similar.

I'm not saying that it's right, but that's the way it works, and if the habs haven't signed him yet then it's for a particular reason of some sort and PK has little leverage in this game. Now of course if the crowd chants for PK and the team nose-dives then will be the true test of MB's will and philosophy and how much he is willing to shift it...

Completely agree.. I'm tripling the next employees production at my work and because i'm a 24 year old punk.. I don't make as much as them.

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01-18-2013, 11:07 AM
  #243
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Yes, absolutely.

It's not uncommon and not un-like reality if you think about it. In a regular job people get pay increases every year, simply being at a company for 30 years means you should be making quite a bit, even if you don't get huge increases, it adds up. And younger employees that are far better at what you do don't get as much. They are within their right to find a new job, totally. But in the NHL you are owned by your team until you're 27 years old (unless you enter the league at 18 and that becomes 25). That is the leverage the habs have. When RFAs go to arbitration they are not allowed to look at money given to UFAs...similar principle at play here...not exactly the same but similar.

I'm not saying that it's right, but that's the way it works, and if the habs haven't signed him yet then it's for a particular reason of some sort and PK has little leverage in this game. Now of course if the crowd chants for PK and the team nose-dives then will be the true test of MB's will and philosophy and how much he is willing to shift it...
I said 'put yourself in HIS shoes'...being a professional athlete isn't like working an average job.

If you were PK Subban, and played as big a role as he's played on the Habs...and you saw other dmen on the same team make 4.5+ when they don't play nearly as big a role as you + other players around the NHL who were in similar situations were also getting paid

would you find it fair then?

You're probably gonna say yes...but i'm not convinced it would be the case in reality

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01-18-2013, 11:09 AM
  #244
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Completely agree.. I'm tripling the next employees production at my work and because i'm a 24 year old punk.. I don't make as much as them.
If you had the opportunity and the ability to hold out to get paid as much as those other employees

I bet you would take advantage of that, wouldn't you?

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01-18-2013, 11:10 AM
  #245
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If you had the opportunity and the ability to hold out to get paid as much as those other employees

I bet you would take advantage of that, wouldn't you?
If he "held out", he would be out of a job rather quickly.

They would just find the next 24 year old punk to do what he does.

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01-18-2013, 11:11 AM
  #246
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I said 'put yourself in HIS shoes'...being a professional athlete isn't like working an average job.

If you were PK Subban, and played as big a role as he's played on the Habs...and you saw other dmen on the same team make 4.5+ when they don't play nearly as big a role as you + other players around the NHL who were in similar situations were also getting paid

would you find it fair then?

You're probably gonna say yes...but i'm not convinced it would be the case in reality
I did put myself in his shoes, but it becomes difficult when you start to talk about money because as I already said if he turns out the way people expect then I would pay him. If PK wants the money now he is entitled to sign an offer sheet or even request a trade - it happens sometimes - Brendan Morrison requested a trade from NJ because Lou operated in a similar way. PK can do it.

Why did Pacioretty and Price find it fair to sign for the famouse 'bridge' deal? Circumstances might be different but in the end they signed. And then got their money.

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01-18-2013, 11:14 AM
  #247
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If you had the opportunity and the ability to hold out to get paid as much as those other employees

I bet you would take advantage of that, wouldn't you?
Good question - personally I wouldn't. Just curious, is there a list of past RFA's that have held out?

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01-18-2013, 11:15 AM
  #248
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If he "held out", he would be out of a job rather quickly.

They would just find the next 24 year old punk to do what he does.
Situation is a bit different here though...replacing PK 1:1 is not going to happen...his skills are apparent. But in the end replacing him 1:1 might not be that big a deal at this point in time for the organization - one might deduce if they keep him on the sidelines for an extended period of time.

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01-18-2013, 11:17 AM
  #249
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Situation is a bit different here though...replacing PK 1:1 is not going to happen...his skills are apparent. But in the end replacing him 1:1 might not be that big a deal at this point in time for the organization - one might deduce if they keep him on the sidelines for an extended period of time.
Exactly ... can't compare RL with professional sports, because it isn't. In RL everybody is replaceable, specially in a world of high unemployment worldwide.

Professional Sports is an entirely different story.

Bergevin has the leverage IMO, because the team isn't ready to contend this season, so he has no rush to sign Subban.

If we were contending for a Stanley Cup this season, because of the shorter schedule, he would have to sign him ASAP, because missing 5-6 games would be huge for a guy of his caliber and importance to the team.

He can afford to let him sit IMO.

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01-18-2013, 11:19 AM
  #250
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Exactly ... can't compare RL with professional sports, because it isn't. In RL everybody is replaceable, specially in a world of high unemployment worldwide.

Professional Sports is an entirely different story.

Bergevin has the leverage IMO, because the team isn't ready to contend this season, so he has no rush to sign Subban.

If we were contending for a Stanley Cup this season, because of the shorter schedule, he would have to sign him ASAP, because missing 5-6 games would be huge for a guy of his caliber and importance to the team.

He can afford to let him sit IMO.
100% Bang on imo...personally I look at this as a good thing. PK is part of the master plan but this year has fewer expectations than the year prior imo. We tried a quick re-tool to win the cup...but the contracts we gave to UFAs (and the Gomez trade of course) didn't quite work out. We had a great 2 years and took the Bruins to 7 but in the end we lost. Now we're in a bit of a transition mode...no rush to commit big dollars at this point.

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