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Could Raymond be the Bieksa of our Forward Corps?

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Old
01-18-2013, 10:40 AM
  #26
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I think he can bounce back and be an effective NHLer, but I don't think it will be here.

As for the Bieksa comparison, I think the difference is that Bieksa possesses a few truly rare traits for an NHL player: even just being a right shooting defenseman is immensely useful but being a player with offensive upside, a physical game and a legitimate nasty streak? How many of those are there around the league?

Raymond has the tools to be a desireable top six forward, but Bieksa has the tools to be a top pairing defenseman. I just don't think a Raymond bounceback is as spectacular as Bieksa's was, and I think unless he turns himself into a premiere two way player that when it comes time for the Canucks to make some tough decisions this offseason he'll be on his way out.

I'm sure he'll make a fine second liner in Winnipeg or Anaheim or New Jersey.

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01-18-2013, 10:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Shareefruck View Post
Bieksa is inconsistent, sometimes brilliant, sometimes terrible, with or without his injuries, IMO. I think with him it's partly laziness/lack of focus.
I'd agree with this (course, I have been known to be biased against the player in the past - to be fair to him, he's much improved in his consistancy the past year or two).

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01-18-2013, 10:44 AM
  #28
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I'd agree with this (course, I have been known to be biased against the player in the past - to be fair to him, he's much improved in his consistancy the past year or two).
Heh. It's amazing how much a run of good health and a highly competent teammate will do for a player's "consistency."

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01-18-2013, 10:46 AM
  #29
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Well, yeah, that's true too.

But let's not forget, he was excellent in his first year as well... playing with.... who? I'm pretty sure he didn't play with Ohlund, Jovanovski, or Salo, so it must have been one of the weaker defenseman.

Edit: on second thought, maybe it was Ohlund

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01-18-2013, 10:53 AM
  #30
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Bieksa? He played with Mitchell in his first full year.

In 05-06 I am sure he would have bounced around given the tumult on the blueline, he was excellent given the expectations but at 16 minutes a game, 6 assists and a -1 over 39 games I don't know if you would call that performance "excellent" by any objective standard.

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01-18-2013, 10:53 AM
  #31
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If Raymond can just not be the sux it will be a huge boon for our depth. He's had two solid scrimmages, but they're more or less non-contact. Stating the obvious here, but his game is fine on 2/3 of the rink, he just needs to get off the perimeter in the offensive zone. Won't know if he can do that until the bullets start flying for real, but the turnaround Bieksa did gives me hope for Raymond.

So if Raymond does pull a Bieksa, who becomes the next Raymond/Bieksa? We're starting to run out of obvious whipping boys.....

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01-18-2013, 10:55 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by alternate View Post
If Raymond can just not be the sux it will be a huge boon for our depth. He's had two solid scrimmages, but they're more or less non-contact. Stating the obvious here, but his game is fine on 2/3 of the rink, he just needs to get off the perimeter in the offensive zone. Won't know if he can do that until the bullets start flying for real, but the turnaround Bieksa did gives me hope for Raymond.

So if Raymond does pull a Bieksa, who becomes the next Raymond/Bieksa? We're starting to run out of obvious whipping boys.....
Booth. Can't stay healthy, isn't producing to expectations, has an obvious/maddening flaw to his game (fairly low hockey IQ) that makes posters think they could be doing better if only they had the skill and athleticism..

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01-18-2013, 10:58 AM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alternate View Post
If Raymond can just not be the sux it will be a huge boon for our depth. He's had two solid scrimmages, but they're more or less non-contact. Stating the obvious here, but his game is fine on 2/3 of the rink, he just needs to get off the perimeter in the offensive zone. Won't know if he can do that until the bullets start flying for real, but the turnaround Bieksa did gives me hope for Raymond.

So if Raymond does pull a Bieksa, who becomes the next Raymond/Bieksa? We're starting to run out of obvious whipping boys.....
Booth easily. I mean, he already gets ragged on enough as is. Can't even imagine the hatred he'd get if Raymond can regain his old form.

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01-18-2013, 11:04 AM
  #34
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yeah, I completely forgot about Booth! Even if Raymond doesn't have a bounce back year, Booth might still be public enemy #1 around here.

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01-18-2013, 04:38 PM
  #35
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Raymond could probably get Gretzky-like production in a season of inter-squad scrimmage games. He's been the most frustrating player for a lot of fans because as soon as there is some hitting involved, Raymond is busy laying on his ass in the corner or dipsy doodling himself right out of the offensive zone instead of scoring goals.

Settle down people, it's an intersquad scrimmage.

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01-18-2013, 06:05 PM
  #36
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Don't read too much into an inter-squad scrimmage, however I wouldn't be surprised if Raymond had a major bounce back year.

He's a highly skilled player - it's obvious to anyone who sees him play. His problem has been having the strength and desire to play in the tough areas of the ice. It pays to remember some context.

In his breakout year he played mostly on a line with Kesler and Samuelsson. Kesler in 2009/10 produced 25 goals and 50 assists and anchored the 2nd unit PP. The PP was reasonable balanced - Samuelsson moved up to the Sedins line for the PP and a cast of Wellwood, Grabner, Bernier, Demitra filled in the 2nd unit.

The following year was disappointing for Raymond. He missed 12 games due to a shoulder injury that limited his upper body strength. Also Kesler went from 25/50 to 41/32 - he was generating just as much offense, but you could argue he wasn't using his wingers as well (his shots went from 214 to 260).

AV decided to stack the first PP unit with the Sedins and Kesler and to play them for 90 seconds of the PP. This left the 2nd unit without a natural center and much less PP time. Not surprising Raymonds production dropped. I would attribute it equally to a personal slump, injury and reduced PP chances.

Last season I expected it would be a brutal season for Raymond. For a guy whose main problem is a lack of strength to drive to the centre of the ice, having major back surgery, missing the entire summer, training camp, pre-season and almost half the season, my expectations were low - and he met them. It was also pretty clear he didn't have the explosive speed that was his hallmark.

This season, Raymond has had the whole summer, fall and into the winter to workout and gain some strength. What I see from Raymond is a lot more speed, not just top end, but an explosive burst. In the 2 scrimmages I watched, I also see a willingness to drive to the net - something we didn't see at all in the last 2 years. I'm not ready to declare him a 25 goal scorer again, he has to be willing and able to do it against tougher opponents than his own teammates.

If he can't do it this year in the regular season and playoffs, there is really no room on this team for him and his NHL career is heading towards an early end. IT would be a shame because he is such a highly skilled player.

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01-18-2013, 06:28 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alternate View Post
So if Raymond does pull a Bieksa, who becomes the next Raymond/Bieksa? We're starting to run out of obvious whipping boys.....
Schneider. By then he'll have lost the starting job back to Luongo and we'll all be moaning about how we could've gotten something of value for him.

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01-18-2013, 06:43 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by PG Canuck View Post
Raymond just needs a saviour, like Bieksa, and he could return to his old goal scoring form.
I assume when you say his "goal scoring form", you are referring to his ONE season where scored 25 goals?

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01-18-2013, 06:47 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alternate View Post
So if Raymond does pull a Bieksa, who becomes the next Raymond/Bieksa? We're starting to run out of obvious whipping boys.....
There already appears to be a new whipping boy (for some fans at least).

David Booth, COME ON DOWN!

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01-18-2013, 07:15 PM
  #40
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Maybe. Though Bieksa is such a success story because he came back to play the best hockey of his career. For Raymond, that would be about 30-35-65 with huge defensive contributions effectively making one of the best defensive forwards in the league.

Could it happen? Yes. Will it happen? Likely not. Doesn't mean he can't be a 20-25-45 guy and still be a big part of the team.
In 48 games?? That'd be sweeeeet....

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01-18-2013, 09:09 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by LeftCoast View Post
Don't read too much into an inter-squad scrimmage, however I wouldn't be surprised if Raymond had a major bounce back year.

He's a highly skilled player - it's obvious to anyone who sees him play. His problem has been having the strength and desire to play in the tough areas of the ice. It pays to remember some context.

In his breakout year he played mostly on a line with Kesler and Samuelsson. Kesler in 2009/10 produced 25 goals and 50 assists and anchored the 2nd unit PP. The PP was reasonable balanced - Samuelsson moved up to the Sedins line for the PP and a cast of Wellwood, Grabner, Bernier, Demitra filled in the 2nd unit.

The following year was disappointing for Raymond. He missed 12 games due to a shoulder injury that limited his upper body strength. Also Kesler went from 25/50 to 41/32 - he was generating just as much offense, but you could argue he wasn't using his wingers as well (his shots went from 214 to 260).

AV decided to stack the first PP unit with the Sedins and Kesler and to play them for 90 seconds of the PP. This left the 2nd unit without a natural center and much less PP time. Not surprising Raymonds production dropped. I would attribute it equally to a personal slump, injury and reduced PP chances.

Last season I expected it would be a brutal season for Raymond. For a guy whose main problem is a lack of strength to drive to the centre of the ice, having major back surgery, missing the entire summer, training camp, pre-season and almost half the season, my expectations were low - and he met them. It was also pretty clear he didn't have the explosive speed that was his hallmark.

This season, Raymond has had the whole summer, fall and into the winter to workout and gain some strength. What I see from Raymond is a lot more speed, not just top end, but an explosive burst. In the 2 scrimmages I watched, I also see a willingness to drive to the net - something we didn't see at all in the last 2 years. I'm not ready to declare him a 25 goal scorer again, he has to be willing and able to do it against tougher opponents than his own teammates.

If he can't do it this year in the regular season and playoffs, there is really no room on this team for him and his NHL career is heading towards an early end. IT would be a shame because he is such a highly skilled player.
Well put, I agree with your analysis. I just need to see Raymond put it together consistently before anointing him as the come back kid. He always tantalizes with his elite skill but seems to struggle putting it together.

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01-19-2013, 06:55 PM
  #42
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maybe... but who is his Hamhuis? definitely not Kesler or Booth...
Obviously Schroeder.

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01-20-2013, 12:23 AM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LeftCoast View Post
Don't read too much into an inter-squad scrimmage, however I wouldn't be surprised if Raymond had a major bounce back year.

He's a highly skilled player - it's obvious to anyone who sees him play. His problem has been having the strength and desire to play in the tough areas of the ice. It pays to remember some context.

In his breakout year he played mostly on a line with Kesler and Samuelsson. Kesler in 2009/10 produced 25 goals and 50 assists and anchored the 2nd unit PP. The PP was reasonable balanced - Samuelsson moved up to the Sedins line for the PP and a cast of Wellwood, Grabner, Bernier, Demitra filled in the 2nd unit.

The following year was disappointing for Raymond. He missed 12 games due to a shoulder injury that limited his upper body strength. Also Kesler went from 25/50 to 41/32 - he was generating just as much offense, but you could argue he wasn't using his wingers as well (his shots went from 214 to 260).

AV decided to stack the first PP unit with the Sedins and Kesler and to play them for 90 seconds of the PP. This left the 2nd unit without a natural center and much less PP time. Not surprising Raymonds production dropped. I would attribute it equally to a personal slump, injury and reduced PP chances.

Last season I expected it would be a brutal season for Raymond. For a guy whose main problem is a lack of strength to drive to the centre of the ice, having major back surgery, missing the entire summer, training camp, pre-season and almost half the season, my expectations were low - and he met them. It was also pretty clear he didn't have the explosive speed that was his hallmark.

This season, Raymond has had the whole summer, fall and into the winter to workout and gain some strength. What I see from Raymond is a lot more speed, not just top end, but an explosive burst. In the 2 scrimmages I watched, I also see a willingness to drive to the net - something we didn't see at all in the last 2 years. I'm not ready to declare him a 25 goal scorer again, he has to be willing and able to do it against tougher opponents than his own teammates.

If he can't do it this year in the regular season and playoffs, there is really no room on this team for him and his NHL career is heading towards an early end. IT would be a shame because he is such a highly skilled player.
It is worth noting, that at Even Strength, 2009-2010 Raymond (i.e. his 'best' year) produced at 0.42 PPG. Whereas 2010-2011 Raymond produced at 0.47 PPG.

So the change in the power play more than accounts for his points deficit, especially when you consider he had a wrist injury to start the 10-11 season.

This kind of difference is pretty much true of all the 2nd/3rd line 'tweeners' in the NHL. If you give them no PP time, they score ~30 points, whereas those who get true 2nd unit PP time end up around 50 points.

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02-12-2013, 10:33 PM
  #44
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Ahem...

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02-12-2013, 10:42 PM
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Is Jordan Schroeder the Hamhuis of Mason Raymond?

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02-12-2013, 10:43 PM
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Nvmm

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02-12-2013, 10:54 PM
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02-13-2013, 12:26 AM
  #48
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Originally Posted by TedTheTerror View Post
maybe... but who is his Hamhuis? definitely not Kesler or Booth...
God forbid we give any of our players get personal credit for their game bouncing back.

Playing with stable line mates is of course important, but both Raymond and Bieksa deserve credit for rehabbing and finding their games again.

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02-13-2013, 12:39 AM
  #49
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Raymond is looking like a different player, I have to say. I'm not taking any credit away from Raymond, more-so praising Schroeder, but maybe Schroeder is exactly the type of player Raymond needed to finally get his game going? On that note, perhaps the line in general Raymond is playing on has improved his game overall, with Hansen on his wing too. That line was ferocious on the forecheck, and it resulted in a goal.

Anyways, back to Raymond, it seems the offseason has treated him well for a full recovery. Raymond is driving the net; I mean how often did you see MayRay end up in the net, let alone around the net last year, like we saw tonight? His hands are underrated, and that toedrag and pass to Ballard was sickening.

Raymond may have finally found his companion in Schroeder, hopefully Schroeder can stay with the Canucks now.

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02-13-2013, 12:58 AM
  #50
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Raymond is looking like a different player, I have to say. I'm not taking any credit away from Raymond, more-so praising Schroeder, but maybe Schroeder is exactly the type of player Raymond needed to finally get his game going? On that note, perhaps the line in general Raymond is playing on has improved his game overall, with Hansen on his wing too. That line was ferocious on the forecheck, and it resulted in a goal.

Anyways, back to Raymond, it seems the offseason has treated him well for a full recovery. Raymond is driving the net; I mean how often did you see MayRay end up in the net, let alone around the net last year, like we saw tonight? His hands are underrated, and that toedrag and pass to Ballard was sickening.

Raymond may have finally found his companion in Schroeder, hopefully Schroeder can stay with the Canucks now.
I'm less inclined to give Schroeder credit than to acknowledge what the extra year did for Raymond.

Last year, I was shaking my head at all the people who impatiently wanted to boot him off the team. What did they expect, several months removed from a back injury? Dude broke his frickin' back, barely had time to rehab and strengthen it properly, and people were surprised he played weak?

Sometimes, the fans on here seem to have absolutely no grasp or concept of how the actual physical side of the game works. It's so easy to just sit behind the glass or TV and point and critique.

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