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McKenzie's Take On The Habs

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Old
01-18-2013, 11:28 AM
  #176
GordonGraham
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what was the consessus on the habs last night in the TSN season preview

I only saw the western conference part of the show
I found it on the tsn website #12

They are predicting another great year for canada with the flames/oilers 13/14 in the west

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01-18-2013, 11:36 AM
  #177
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I found it on the tsn website #12

They are predicting another great year for canada with the flames/oilers 13/14 in the west
The Oilers have the talent. They need some D and goaltending... if they manage that then they'll be awesome. And Justin Schultz is going to be interesting to watch this year. They might surprise some people.

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01-18-2013, 11:37 AM
  #178
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There's different ways of doing the "rebuild". The problem is that many times we've taken some horrific lowball offers simply to move a "bad apple" knowing full well the talent we'd given up.
And there, ladies and gentlemen, is the smoking gun. That's where the Habs have been guilty of attempted murder of a franchise. Panic moves like Cammalleri and impulse moves like Halak have left us a cut below where we could've been. No offence to Eller, who should become a solid third-line player, but most GMs would have given far more for Halak after his phenomenal playoff performance, if they had only known he was available! Unfriggin'-believable...

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01-18-2013, 11:37 AM
  #179
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I found it on the tsn website #12

They are predicting another great year for canada with the flames/oilers 13/14 in the west
woo hoo! up 3 spots!

I'm guessing Vancouver with the Cup and Toronto somehow solidly in 6th to 8th...it is the Toronto Sports Network after all

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01-18-2013, 11:42 AM
  #180
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And there, ladies and gentlemen, is the smoking gun. That's where the Habs have been guilty of attempted murder of a franchise. Panic moves like Cammalleri and impulse moves like Halak have left us a cut below where we could've been. No offence to Eller, who should become a solid third-line player, but most GMs would have given far more for Halak after his phenomenal playoff performance, if they had only known he was available! Unfriggin'-believable...
I think Roy and Ribiero (although I really hated this kid) hurt much more. At least Halak fetched us a big centre picked in the top 13 and Cammy got us someone who "potentially" can score 20, a 2nd rder and a half descent prospect (with an outside shot at the NHL in 3 years from now)....but I agree, Halak and Cammy deals could have benn better

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01-18-2013, 11:43 AM
  #181
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Originally Posted by Lshap View Post
And there, ladies and gentlemen, is the smoking gun. That's where the Habs have been guilty of attempted murder of a franchise. Panic moves like Cammalleri and impulse moves like Halak have left us a cut below where we could've been. No offence to Eller, who should become a solid third-line player, but most GMs would have given far more for Halak after his phenomenal playoff performance, if they had only known he was available! Unfriggin'-believable...
Yup, even when we haven't wasted assets by just letting them walk out the door, we've made some really dumb trades. The FA signings haven't helped either as we've mostly gotten the shaft there too.

Sergei freaking Samsonov...

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01-18-2013, 11:46 AM
  #182
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Originally Posted by GordonGraham View Post
I found it on the tsn website #12

They are predicting another great year for canada with the flames/oilers 13/14 in the west
I actually think we'll do better. We could easily make the playoffs if Price plays like he can. He gives us a chance to win every night. Subban and Max should (hopefully) be better this year and Markov is a wild card. Then again, we got a great year out of Cole and it might be too much to expect to see that from him again.

I didn't think we'd be nearly as bad as we were last year.

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01-18-2013, 12:30 PM
  #183
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Originally Posted by GordonGraham View Post
I found it on the tsn website #12

They are predicting another great year for canada with the flames/oilers 13/14 in the west
I'm confident that we'll see the boys make it into the post-season. Tough to say how deep into the playoffs they go, but I don't doubt that they will put up a hell of a fight this year.

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01-18-2013, 08:00 PM
  #184
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Lots of typos, sorry.

LaFleurs Guy, I was going to respond point by point but I think it would be a bit too tedious. My big issue with what you're shovelling (and you ARE shovelling something) is that you're completely ignoring reality. The Habs don't exist in a vacuum, if they did your ideas would have merit but that's not the case at all.

Molson just bought this team; he is not interested in devaluing it and selling off assets. Also, after selling off good players who eat up minutes competantly we'll have to replace them with scrubs, nobodies, never-beens and generally untalented UFAs or green youngsters. You can't just forfit games, right? So who do you play?

Your "method" depends on strategic talent reduction for high draft picks when in fact it's nearly impossible to maintain that sort of atmosphere without spinning into an uncontrollable phenomenon. Losing sucks and everyone who has made it into the NHL knows this feeling and is fiercely competitive. I don't feel like you understand or acknowledge the reality of this very pertinent fact (or have ever played competitive sports). Just last year, losing close games over and over took it's toll on the team: 4 veteran starters got traded, 1 bought out and 2 entire coaching staffs were fired. Now we both know that the changes weren't necessarily for the bad, especially the coaches, but it stands that losing = turmoil, change, distruption.

I don't need to list off The Blue Jackets, Islanders and the like - do I?

Now this is all neglecting my primary argument: hockey is entertainment and if the Habs suck to watch the fans WILL go away. You ignored my point and dismissed it as "no they won't we still log onto HFboards"... Under Jacques Martin the hockey we played was brutally boring and less people watched games on RDS (until the playoffs that is.) we had dead arenas and inflated attendence figures, scalpers actually complained about this. This was for a .500 team. Molson doesn't want to lower his ********* ticket prices to keep selling out the Bell Centre, so he's clearly not going to approve some constipated attempt to lose in order to eventually win... maybe. People wil stop watching and it will hurt merchendise sales and the owner. Maybe irreparably.

I'm assuming you're aware of the term "Public Image" and the super long term affects of bad public image? The Habs STILL have not fully recovered from the early 2000s. They're a product being sold, like a shampoo, you're saying we should keep changing the formula until we find the magic figures that makes it super duper good. Well no, it won't work that way because no one will buy the fn shampoo if their hair will be falling out - or in the case of the TankHabs, if the team has no #1 centre, and keeps getting scored on because all the vets are traded from the D and Budaj is starting half the games and the players don't give a damn and start half-assing it.

It's just such a hair-brained, half-considered scenario and you're so obsessed with this narrative that I can't just ignore you as I typically do. It's just aggressively ignorant to important realities of life, buisness, public relations, hockey, inter-personal skills, etc. that I'm actually worried about you.

It's a new year, a new management organization, a new coach and a new CBA. We weren't that bad last year as we all know, and we will be getting better and better if we keep doing it. I can't promise a cup, no way, but I know they all want to win and will makes the moves they feel is right to achieve the goal.

Besides, we're just spectators afterall.

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01-18-2013, 08:27 PM
  #185
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Originally Posted by WhiskeySeven View Post
Lots of typos, sorry.

LaFleurs Guy, I was going to respond point by point but I think it would be a bit too tedious. My big issue with what you're shovelling (and you ARE shovelling something) is that you're completely ignoring reality. The Habs don't exist in a vacuum, if they did your ideas would have merit but that's not the case at all.
My points have merit because they've been put to action and resulted in cups. We've seen it but we haven't learned from it...
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Originally Posted by WhiskeySeven View Post
Molson just bought this team; he is not interested in devaluing it and selling off assets.
You don't know this and neither do I. Who the hell knows what the guy wants? He's an owner. He might ACTUALLY want a cup and be willing to do whatever he has to in order to get one.
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Originally Posted by WhiskeySeven View Post
Also, after selling off good players who eat up minutes competantly we'll have to replace them with scrubs, nobodies, never-beens and generally untalented UFAs or green youngsters. You can't just forfit games, right? So who do you play?
We've played without Markov for three years now. Why can't we play without him now. We've played without Gionta as well...

You probably said the same thing about Koivu. We CAN'T trade him because we'll be in the dark ages for years... then we let him walk for nothing.

Again, what you're saying doesn't make sense.
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Originally Posted by WhiskeySeven View Post
Your "method" depends on strategic talent reduction for high draft picks when in fact it's nearly impossible to maintain that sort of atmosphere without spinning into an uncontrollable phenomenon.
??????

This is rhetoric, not argument. And it's be debunked by the fact that most cup winning teams have been rebuilds.

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Originally Posted by WhiskeySeven View Post
Losing sucks and everyone who has made it into the NHL knows this feeling and is fiercely competitive. I don't feel like you understand or acknowledge the reality of this very pertinent fact (or have ever played competitive sports). Just last year, losing close games over and over took it's toll on the team: 4 veteran starters got traded, 1 bought out and 2 entire coaching staffs were fired. Now we both know that the changes weren't necessarily for the bad, especially the coaches, but it stands that losing = turmoil, change, distruption.
Tell that to the Devils, Avs, Wings and Pens... For them it resulted in cups.

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Originally Posted by WhiskeySeven View Post
I don't need to list off The Blue Jackets, Islanders and the like - do I?
Please do mention the Islanders. As I've pointed out, they traded away a Stanley Cup winning roster of prospects. If they'd just stuck with a rebuild, they'd have been a powerhouse. Mentioning them only proves my point.
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Originally Posted by WhiskeySeven View Post
Now this is all neglecting my primary argument: hockey is entertainment and if the Habs suck to watch the fans WILL go away. You ignored my point and dismissed it as "no they won't we still log onto HFboards"... Under Jacques Martin the hockey we played was brutally boring and less people watched games on RDS (until the playoffs that is.) we had dead arenas and inflated attendence figures, scalpers actually complained about this. This was for a .500 team. Molson doesn't want to lower his ********* ticket prices to keep selling out the Bell Centre, so he's clearly not going to approve some constipated attempt to lose in order to eventually win... maybe. People wil stop watching and it will hurt merchendise sales and the owner. Maybe irreparably.
Do you know that this is actually what Leaf fans have said? The same fans who have watched their team lose for 40+ years and miss the playoffs for ten. They've said that a rebuild would make the fans go away.

Thanks for the good laugh because I had almost forgotten about that. BTW, sure is strange how many fans are still watching and writing on this forum despite last year's horrible finish.

Please stop with this stupid argument.



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Originally Posted by WhiskeySeven View Post
I'm assuming you're aware of the term "Public Image" and the super long term affects of bad public image? The Habs STILL have not fully recovered from the early 2000s. They're a product being sold, like a shampoo, you're saying we should keep changing the formula until we find the magic figures that makes it super duper good. Well no, it won't work that way because no one will buy the fn shampoo if their hair will be falling out - or in the case of the TankHabs, if the team has no #1 centre, and keeps getting scored on because all the vets are traded from the D and Budaj is starting half the games and the players don't give a damn and start half-assing it..
Yeah, the Habs haven't recovered...

And what's funnier is that you think the cure for this is... more mediocrity. Right, let's not fix the problem, let's perpetuate it.
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Originally Posted by WhiskeySeven View Post
It's just such a hair-brained, half-considered scenario and you're so obsessed with this narrative that I can't just ignore you as I typically do. It's just aggressively ignorant to important realities of life, buisness, public relations, hockey, inter-personal skills, etc. that I'm actually worried about you.
Dude, hair brained is continuing the way we have. You talk about the early 2000s, well how the hell do you think we got there in the first place? We didn't rebuild, went for quick fixes and wound up mediocre. And we've been mediocre for a long, long time.
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Originally Posted by WhiskeySeven View Post
It's a new year, a new management organization, a new coach and a new CBA. We weren't that bad last year as we all know, and we will be getting better and better if we keep doing it. I can't promise a cup, no way, but I know they all want to win and will makes the moves they feel is right to achieve the goal.
You don't know squat about what we're going to do. Nobody does. We've got a new owner and we don't know if he's all about the dollars or if its about the cups.

You are an apologist. You come here after every move and defend, defend, defend... I find it truly ironic that you sit here and talk about how the fans will go away. With guys like you out there, the club is safe no matter what it puts on the ice.

And you know it.

You are the worst kind of poster because your arguments are fundamentally dishonest. You KNOW you're shovelling crap when you say this stuff. You don't want to rebuild because you want to go for 8th all the time, but you know I'll destroy you. So instead, you manifacture some ridiculous excuse... just give it up.

You disagree with me on rebuilding, that's fair enough. But I'm honest in my opinions and can back them up in spades. Sitting there manufacturing reasons why we can't is fundamentally dishonest and you deserved to be ripped for it.

This is not a question of abillity. We CAN do this. This is a question of will. Is ownership willing to do this? It's been shown to work and we have the best scouting in the league. The few rebuilding moves we've made have resulted in our best players and prospects... it does work. We just need an owner who's interested in cups instead of short term profits.
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Originally Posted by WhiskeySeven View Post
Besides, we're just spectators afterall.
We are fans and this is a place to discuss what the team should do to achieve success. The path has been there a long time. I'm glad we've started to take it (willingly or not) and get the benefits.

It's up to Molson to decide what he's going to do. It's up to him. I can only argue what he SHOULD do.


Last edited by Lafleurs Guy: 01-18-2013 at 08:43 PM.
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Old
01-18-2013, 09:18 PM
  #186
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I'm confident that we'll see the boys make it into the post-season. Tough to say how deep into the playoffs they go, but I don't doubt that they will put up a hell of a fight this year.
It would be a nice start to not have as many injuries as last year.

I have low expectations this season, and my predictions are pretty much in line with the consensus. This team will struggle to make the playoffs.

If Markov can get to his 2008 form, Price plays like a vezina contender, and bourque bounces back with 25-30 goals (or whoever ends up being that top 6 forward), then I'll like their chances, but all of them are big ifs, outside of the idea that price will shine.

I also forgot to include that the 2.5 men have to pick up where they left off too.

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01-18-2013, 09:26 PM
  #187
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If ...
  • Price has a Vezina campaign;
  • Desharnais goes point per game for the entire season;
  • Both Cole and Pacioretty score 40 goals;
  • Plekanec bounces back and has a 60 point campaign;
  • Markov isn't injured, in fact there will be no injuries on the D;
  • Subban is signed early enough;
  • Eller grows to become the 30-30 player with 3rd line ice time and no PP time some fans expect;
  • Galchenyuk has a rookie of the year campaign;
  • Emelin and Diaz progress;
  • Prust, Bouillon, Moen, White win all their fights;
  • The PP regresses to the mean;
  • The PK does not regress to the mean;

We'll be 1st in the eastern conference !!!

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01-18-2013, 09:29 PM
  #188
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If ...
  • Price has a Vezina campaign;
  • Desharnais goes point per game for the entire season;
  • Both Cole and Pacioretty score 40 goals;
  • Plekanec bounces back and has a 60 point campaign;
  • Markov isn't injured, in fact there will be no injuries on the D;
  • Subban is signed early enough;
  • Eller grows to become the 30-30 player with 3rd line ice time and no PP time some fans expect;
  • Galchenyuk has a rookie of the year campaign;
  • Emelin and Diaz progress;
  • Prust, Bouillon, Moen, White win all their fights;
  • The PP regresses to the mean;
  • The PK does not regress to the mean;

We'll be 1st in the eastern conference !!!
I think you forgot something, we're only playing 48 games.

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01-18-2013, 09:40 PM
  #189
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Gauthier was an idiot. The broadcasters the day after his rant were talking about the returns we could get on Cammy... when the trade went down they were shocked and then several GMs commented that they had no idea about the deal.

PG was a piss poor GM who grasped at straws to make the playoffs. Make no mistake that was a short term move designed to try to make the playoffs and save face from Cammy's comments. The timing of the deal (which made absolutely no sense) confirm this. Everyone knows this and Bob McKenzie himself said you'd have to be a complete idiot to think that Cammy's comments didn't have something to do with this.

Just another example of the dumb, dumb management we've had in recent years.

How about the fact that we sign the leftovers from other clubs and never drafted high? How about the fact that rather than rebuild (which we should've done an infinite number of times) we went for 8th place?

8th place and making the playoffs became the target for success and many people here became satisified with it. That was the problem.

I think acquiring prospects is great. I just think we should do a whole lot more of this...


Veteran presence is great. But not at the expense of picking up young talent. Nobody had to show Yzerman how to play. Nobody had to show Subban or Price. Good players will develop no matter what. In fact, when you build with a bunch of kids it's probably even better because they grow up together.

And we have vets that we can keep. Hal Gill was supposedly a good vet, Josh Gorges can fill that role. We don't need to turn down good opportunities for the sake of keeping a vet. Markov is woth a hell of a lot more to us as trade bait than he is as a veteran leader.

I know a whole bunch of people are going to freak out on this but it's true. We just never seem to learn this lesson.




You wouldn't deal Markov for Filip Forsberg? Why not?

Who do you think will be the better player in two years or three years? How long do you think Forsberg will be in the league? And even if he flops... what are we losing here? And if he's great... what do we gain?

How the hell is this not worth the risk?
So much fail in one post.

So you want to dump vets and get young players in return and tank yet PG was terrible because he dumped your love child Cammy for basically picks and prospects?

PG grasped at straws by firing Martin mid season and basically causing the team to nose dive thus getting our highest draft pick in 30 years? I guess he traded a bunch of picks in order to make the playoffs too didn't he? Oh wait that never happened.

This mess of an argument is so convoluted and degraded I can't tell what the heck you wanted the team to do. You get mad when the team does badly but you want to trade our vets for young prospects in dumb trades no one would ever make.

Your posts are like a Jackson Pollock painting.

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01-18-2013, 09:48 PM
  #190
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And there, ladies and gentlemen, is the smoking gun. That's where the Habs have been guilty of attempted murder of a franchise. Panic moves like Cammalleri and impulse moves like Halak have left us a cut below where we could've been. No offence to Eller, who should become a solid third-line player, but most GMs would have given far more for Halak after his phenomenal playoff performance, if they had only known he was available! Unfriggin'-believable...
Eller is already a solid third line player, with potential to be a jack of all trades second line player like Plekanec.

I don't know what you'd expect from the Halak trade, we effectively got a top 15 pick for Halak. Did you expect them to give us Backes?

I mean the tank brigade wants us to trade Plekanec, Gionta and Markov to contenders for draft picks that will be at best Eller level.

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01-18-2013, 09:59 PM
  #191
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Eller is already a solid third line player, with potential to be a jack of all trades second line player like Plekanec.

I don't know what you'd expect from the Halak trade, we effectively got a top 15 pick for Halak. Did you expect them to give us Backes?

I mean the tank brigade wants us to trade Plekanec, Gionta and Markov to contenders for draft picks that will be at best Eller level.
Shouldn't be too hard getting a young stud prospect like Forsberg for Markov, apparently we are the only team in the league that want's excellent prospects.

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01-18-2013, 10:27 PM
  #192
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Shouldn't be too hard getting a young stud prospect like Forsberg for Markov, apparently we are the only team in the league that want's excellent prospects.
You say that sarcastically,

But if you compare us to the other bottom-dwellers like Toronto and Columbus, we have the best packages to offer cup contenders for their blue chip prospects.

We can offer Plekanec, Cole, Markov, Gionta, Bourque, Kaberle; I think that's better than what Toronto, Long Island, or Columbus can offer. Calgary will likely be selling off the Iginla rental at the deadline and that will be the prize this year, but we have the pieces to clean up what's left I think.

Of course, if Tyutin and Phaneuf get dangled at the deadline, that will distort the trade market, but I don't expect that to happen.

Obviously, there's only so much demand in the trade market in any given year. If we can get one additional first rounder, I'll be satisfied.

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01-19-2013, 12:01 AM
  #193
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You say that sarcastically,

But if you compare us to the other bottom-dwellers like Toronto and Columbus, we have the best packages to offer cup contenders for their blue chip prospects.

We can offer Plekanec, Cole, Markov, Gionta, Bourque, Kaberle; I think that's better than what Toronto, Long Island, or Columbus can offer. Calgary will likely be selling off the Iginla rental at the deadline and that will be the prize this year, but we have the pieces to clean up what's left I think.

Of course, if Tyutin and Phaneuf get dangled at the deadline, that will distort the trade market, but I don't expect that to happen.

Obviously, there's only so much demand in the trade market in any given year. If we can get one additional first rounder, I'll be satisfied.
So, what ur saying is...

Bc we have more veteran pieces that a contending team would want (you listed 6), we are better positioned to get prospects out of them in trade... Correct?

Presumably you didn't include price, maxpac, subban, gorges, eller (and to a lesser degree, emelin? Diaz? Desharnais) bc you view them as worth keeping & building with? ( since all they would have similar or more trade value, to a broader range of teams looking to get better now/willing to move picks/prospects)

That makes 14 players...
Add in our own top prospects 1-2 yrs away (let's keep it to gally, tinordi, and one of Gallagher, Leblanc, Ellis, bournival, Leblanc, kristo, beaulieu, dumont)...

And that's 17 players, including elite goalie, minute eating dman, dynamic offensive winger & maybe elite fwd...

Each team has 6-8 depth players (and in prust/moen/white, we've got some solid ones)...

And u have a 23 player roster that, by using the same logic u apply to selling off everyone, has the makings of an emerging contender...

We aren't the jackets, jets or laffs... We have holes, but we have both prospects to fill them and money to spend on tweaking next summer, now that Gomez is gone.

If we sign subban, Plekanec, for sure, and cole/gionta (barring "can't say no offers") are part of the solution, not the problem

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01-19-2013, 12:13 AM
  #194
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Put differently:

Maxpac- DD - ???
Cole- pleks- gionta
Gally- Eller - ???
Moen- prust - white

Subban - gorges
Markov- emelin
Kaberle/Diaz - ???

Price

As soon as next year, if we find the right solution in the top 6, markov is healthy (and at least 75-80% of what he was) & we don't screw up with subban, we could have a contending team (and with Gallagher, Leblanc, dumont, bournival , beaulieu, tinordi, kristo, Bennett, colberg... & multiple top 60 picks in 2013, we are well positioned to promote internally/remain cap safe for several yrs)

Gut our veteran depth in the name of prospects, and it'll be at least 4-5 more years, & that's assuming the prospects/picks are home runs as opposed to bunts or worse...


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01-19-2013, 12:38 AM
  #195
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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
So, what ur saying is...

Bc we have more veteran pieces that a contending team would want (you listed 6), we are better positioned to get prospects out of them in trade... Correct?

Presumably you didn't include price, maxpac, subban, gorges, eller (and to a lesser degree, emelin? Diaz? Desharnais) bc you view them as worth keeping & building with? ( since all they would have similar or more trade value, to a broader range of teams looking to get better now/willing to move picks/prospects)

That makes 14 players...
Add in our own top prospects 1-2 yrs away (let's keep it to gally, tinordi, and one of Gallagher, Leblanc, Ellis, bournival, Leblanc, kristo, beaulieu, dumont)...

And that's 17 players, including elite goalie, minute eating dman, dynamic offensive winger & maybe elite fwd...

Each team has 6-8 depth players (and in prust/moen/white, we've got some solid ones)...

And u have a 23 player roster that, by using the same logic u apply to selling off everyone, has the makings of an emerging contender...

We aren't the jackets, jets or laffs... We have holes, but we have both prospects to fill them and money to spend on tweaking next summer, now that Gomez is gone.

If we sign subban, Plekanec, for sure, and cole/gionta (barring "can't say no offers") are part of the solution, not the problem
Montreal has a fair number of good players. It just lacks elite players and is poorly proportioned in the distribution of talent.

Price is a top-15 goalie but not top-5.
Subban is a top-30 dman but not top-15.
Plekanec is a op-30 center but not top-15
etc.

What we're missing are elite pieces. Kings had Quick, Doughty, Kopitar, and Brown; Boston had Thomas, Chara; Chicago had Toews, Kane, Keith, Hossa; Pittsburgh had Crosby, Malkin, Staal, Gonchar; Detroit had Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Lidstrom; etc.

The habs arguably have as many good players as those teams, we just don't have as many elite players. Price and Subban may yet become such players. I expect Galchenyuk will. We need 1 more, add McKinnon/Jones/Lindholm/etc and we'll be set.

I don't think you can build a chamionship team through balance alone, by putting together a bunch of secondary scoring threats, or having 6 2nd pairing dmen. I think you need elite leaders.

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01-19-2013, 12:53 AM
  #196
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Montreal has a fair number of good players. It just lacks elite players and is poorly proportioned in the distribution of talent.

Price is a top-15 goalie but not top-5.
Subban is a top-30 dman but not top-15.
Plekanec is a op-30 center but not top-15
etc.

What we're missing are elite pieces. Kings had Quick, Doughty, Kopitar, and Brown; Boston had Thomas, Chara; Chicago had Toews, Kane, Keith, Hossa; Pittsburgh had Crosby, Malkin, Staal, Gonchar; Detroit had Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Lidstrom; etc.

The habs arguably have as many good players as those teams, we just don't have as many elite players. Price and Subban may yet become such players. I expect Galchenyuk will. We need 1 more, add McKinnon/Jones/Lindholm/etc and we'll be set.

I don't think you can build a chamionship team through balance alone, by putting together a bunch of secondary scoring threats, or having 6 2nd pairing dmen. I think you need elite leaders.
I don't buy quick as being more "elite" than price... Time will tell, but osgood looked great winning the cup, as did fleury, ward, khabibulin...

Price is more than good enough, and unless he implodes, will be cemented as "elite" soon enough.

Same could be said of subban, & probably maxpac (by summer of 2014 we'll know for sure).

Gally is as good an elite prospect as we are going to get... 2-3 years & he should be another ok pirate-esque player...

Can't tell me Boston had more "elite" talent than that when they won... Same with Chicago, Detroit, or anyone else.

2-3 healthy elite players, plus very good supporting cast, plus luck, is what you need (and in a cap system, the best you can hope/plan for)

Price- subban- maxpac- gally

That, if well supported, is enough elite talent to win a cup. Gutting that support to go fishing for a Crosby or Malkin would be stupid.

Just look at Cbj & wpg... Franchises that made slam dunk top picks several times & yet are still bottom feeders

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01-19-2013, 02:12 AM
  #197
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I don't buy quick as being more "elite" than price... Time will tell, but osgood looked great winning the cup, as did fleury, ward, khabibulin...
Price may become as good or better than Quick someday, the odds are good. But thus far, Quick is the better goalie.

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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
Price is more than good enough, and unless he implodes, will be cemented as "elite" soon enough.
Price has the advantage of being consistent, he allows 2 goals, 3 goals; with blowouts and shutouts few and far between.

However, he's consistently mediocre, with save percentages of .912, .923, and .916 in the last three seasons. He is above average, but only slightly.

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Same could be said of subban, & probably maxpac (by summer of 2014 we'll know for sure).
Maybe by the summer of 2014, but thus far Subban is not a top-10 D and Max Pac is not a top-10 winger.

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Gally is as good an elite prospect as we are going to get... 2-3 years & he should be another ok pirate-esque player...
What counts as a pirate?

As for Gally being as good as we're going to get, we'll see. Lindholm, Jones, MacKinnon, Barkov, Monahan, Drouin would all have even odds at worst of becoming more valuable than Galchenyuk.

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Can't tell me Boston had more "elite" talent than that when they won... Same with Chicago, Detroit, or anyone else.
Chara, Toews, and Datsyuk are elite talent in my book.

As are Thomas, Keith, and Lidstrom.

I'll point out the Chicago Blackhawks had two defensemen and 1 forward on the 2010 gold medal hockey team at the Vancouver olympics. That is a crazy amount of talent. Kane and Hossa were also olympic talents I believe.

You mention Subban/Price/Pacioretty/Galchenyuk as our core. OK. First of all, what would be wrong with adding Elias Lindholm or Seth Jones? Second, that core would be inferior to the 2010 Blackhawks, Price and Pacioretty are the only ones with a good shot at playing in the olympics next year in Sochi.

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Just look at Cbj & wpg... Franchises that made slam dunk top picks several times & yet are still bottom feeders
What?

Columbus has made one slam dunk pick: Rick Nash. That's it. He was good enough to keep them from drafting top-5, but not good enough to make them a playoff team. They then drafted Derrick Brassard, Nikita Filatov, Jacub Voracek, Nikolai Zherdev over a few years, all are busts as far as Columbus is concerned. They could have drafted Sean Couturier, but that pick was sent to the flyers in exchange for Jeff Carter, who didn't work out in Columbus.

Winnipeg (Atlanta) made a few good picks such as Bryan Little, Evander Kane and Zach Bogosian. As of last season they were a superior team to the Habs.

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01-19-2013, 07:23 AM
  #198
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So much fail in one post.

So you want to dump vets and get young players in return and tank yet PG was terrible because he dumped your love child Cammy for basically picks and prospects?

PG grasped at straws by firing Martin mid season and basically causing the team to nose dive thus getting our highest draft pick in 30 years? I guess he traded a bunch of picks in order to make the playoffs too didn't he? Oh wait that never happened.

This mess of an argument is so convoluted and degraded I can't tell what the heck you wanted the team to do. You get mad when the team does badly but you want to trade our vets for young prospects in dumb trades no one would ever make.

Your posts are like a Jackson Pollock painting.
I'm not sure why you keep defending PG. Lshap hit the nail on the head with his comment that it was a panic move. And Cammy getting traded for picks and prospects? Yeah right... just because we got middling picks and prospects included doesn't mean they were the principles of the deal. Reminds me of how some people kept pointing to Tom Pyatt in the McD/Gomez fiasco.

The man was desperate to save his job. As Bob Mackenzie himself stated, "it strains credulity" to believe that this was made for anything other than to save face after Cammy's comments. Not only was PG a terrible GM, he was petty.

Thank God he's been shown the door.

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Shouldn't be too hard getting a young stud prospect like Forsberg for Markov, apparently we are the only team in the league that want's excellent prospects.
Nobody is saying this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
So, what ur saying is...

Bc we have more veteran pieces that a contending team would want (you listed 6), we are better positioned to get prospects out of them in trade... Correct?

Presumably you didn't include price, maxpac, subban, gorges, eller (and to a lesser degree, emelin? Diaz? Desharnais) bc you view them as worth keeping & building with? ( since all they would have similar or more trade value, to a broader range of teams looking to get better now/willing to move picks/prospects)

That makes 14 players...
Add in our own top prospects 1-2 yrs away (let's keep it to gally, tinordi, and one of Gallagher, Leblanc, Ellis, bournival, Leblanc, kristo, beaulieu, dumont)...

And that's 17 players, including elite goalie, minute eating dman, dynamic offensive winger & maybe elite fwd...

Each team has 6-8 depth players (and in prust/moen/white, we've got some solid ones)...

And u have a 23 player roster that, by using the same logic u apply to selling off everyone, has the makings of an emerging contender...

We aren't the jackets, jets or laffs... We have holes, but we have both prospects to fill them and money to spend on tweaking next summer, now that Gomez is gone.

If we sign subban, Plekanec, for sure, and cole/gionta (barring "can't say no offers") are part of the solution, not the problem
Maybe Pleks can be part of something but its not likely. He's worth more to us as a tradeable asset and the others should definitely be dealt.

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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
Put differently:

Maxpac- DD - ???
Cole- pleks- gionta
Gally- Eller - ???
Moen- prust - white

Subban - gorges
Markov- emelin
Kaberle/Diaz - ???

Price

As soon as next year, if we find the right solution in the top 6, markov is healthy (and at least 75-80% of what he was) & we don't screw up with subban, we could have a contending team (and with Gallagher, Leblanc, dumont, bournival , beaulieu, tinordi, kristo, Bennett, colberg... & multiple top 60 picks in 2013, we are well positioned to promote internally/remain cap safe for several yrs)
Right... if absolutely everything goes right then maybe we'll be great next year.

Or Markov gets older, Cole doesn't produce the way he did last year and we fight for 8th as we will probably do this year. Which is more likely?

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Gut our veteran depth in the name of prospects, and it'll be at least 4-5 more years, & that's assuming the prospects/picks are home runs as opposed to bunts or worse...
The core players we have now for the future (Price, Max, Galch, PK) might be good enough to win a cup. Those are some really good players to build with. You're right, Price alone can lead us pretty far and I'm a big believer in him.

But we're not contenders next year. We're a bubble team this year and we'll be a bubble team next year. Galchenyuk is just startignn his career now and if we're lucky he'll be a good player in three years.

If we're lucky this team will be strong enough to contend. But maybe not.

If we trade for picks and prospects now though in five years when it really matters we'll be so much further ahead. I don't see how we can't be contenders if we do this. I mean seriously, add a couple of picks this season and a prospect or two to go along with our own (probably high pick if we make those trades) how are we not contenders in five years? We'd be pretty much assuring ourselves of being contenders.

Next year won't be so bad without those vets either. We add Galagher, Galchenyuk maybe LL or some other younger player, we might miss the playoffs again next year maybe. After that its a progression upwards. We'd be too good not to start making the playoffs year after year.

We aren't starting from where the Oilers were. We have talent already. If we go with what we've got now and we don't become contenders in 5 years, it's a wasted window. Why not make the deals now to ensure that we're a powerhouse going forward? I really don't see how we don't if we add to what we have now. Some of what we trade for might not pan out, but some will... and in five years we'd be happy that we did it.

You've seen what I've written on our core. I think it's a great core to build with. I don't remember us having this kind of young talent in the system and it's something to be excited about. It might become a contender anyway... I just want to make sure that it is.


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01-19-2013, 02:09 PM
  #199
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Price may become as good or better than Quick someday, the odds are good. But thus far, Quick is the better goalie.


Price has the advantage of being consistent, he allows 2 goals, 3 goals; with blowouts and shutouts few and far between.

However, he's consistently mediocre, with save percentages of .912, .923, and .916 in the last three seasons. He is above average, but only slightly.
Don't you think the team in front of him & the coaching play a role?

And regardless, bottom line is that price is more than good enough to be an impact in nets on a winning team. There aren't more than 3-4 goalies in the league that would be a clear upgrade.


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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Maybe by the summer of 2014, but thus far Subban is not a top-10 D and Max Pac is not a top-10 winger.
Ok... But a minute ago you were saying subban wast top-30?

Maxpac is definitely a top-ten LW in my books, agree to disagree I guess.


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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
What counts as a pirate?

As for Gally being as good as we're going to get, we'll see. Lindholm, Jones, MacKinnon, Barkov, Monahan, Drouin would all have even odds at worst of becoming more valuable than Galchenyuk.


Chara, Toews, and Datsyuk are elite talent in my book.

As are Thomas, Keith, and Lidstrom.

I'll point out the Chicago Blackhawks had two defensemen and 1 forward on the 2010 gold medal hockey team at the Vancouver olympics. That is a crazy amount of talent. Kane and Hossa were also olympic talents I believe.
Interesting to see how many guys from our current group are in Sochi....

Maxpac, pleks, price, Diaz and Markov (if healthy) are locks, subban, Gally, Cole, Emelin all have a good shot.
Aside from Diaz, all of them could easily be gold medallist.

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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
You mention Subban/Price/Pacioretty/Galchenyuk as our core. OK. First of all, what would be wrong with adding Elias Lindholm or Seth Jones? Second, that core would be inferior to the 2010 Blackhawks, Price and Pacioretty are the only ones with a good shot at playing in the olympics next year in Sochi.
Nothing is wrong with it....

But how in the world you think a team likely to finish with a top-5 pick is going to trade that to us for any combination of the veterans you want to trade is beyond me....
This isn't ea sports.

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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
What?

Columbus has made one slam dunk pick: Rick Nash. That's it. He was good enough to keep them from drafting top-5, but not good enough to make them a playoff team. They then drafted Derrick Brassard, Nikita Filatov, Jacub Voracek, Nikolai Zherdev over a few years, all are busts as far as Columbus is concerned. They could have drafted Sean Couturier, but that pick was sent to the flyers in exchange for Jeff Carter, who didn't work out in Columbus.

Winnipeg (Atlanta) made a few good picks such as Bryan Little, Evander Kane and Zach Bogosian. As of last season they were a superior team to the Habs.
Filatov, zherdev, voracek, brassard, brule, Picard, klesla, leclaire....

All of these guys were picked right around where they were rated.... None were big reaches.

Prospects are just that, prospects.... Not sure things.

Development and luck play huge roles in going from prospect to elite nhler, thinking this years list of cant miss guys are any different is foolish

Brule & zherdev were every bit as likely to be stars as mackinnon or jones.

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Right... if absolutely everything goes right then maybe we'll be great next year.
Not everything, that is virtually impossible... But to build a contender, a lot has to go right....that's part of sport.

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01-19-2013, 03:48 PM
  #200
Lafleurs Guy
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Not everything, that is virtually impossible... But to build a contender, a lot has to go right....that's part of sport.
Dude, you're one of the better posters on this board. You understand that it's about winning cups. I'm asking you to take the emotion out of this. Think about it for a second without worrying about the short term.

Look at our core right now going forward. I agree, it's a good core. I also agree that it might be good enough to contend in a few years. Not this year, not next but maybe (if we're lucky) two or three years from now. But it's a maybe... its not a sure thing with what we've got.

Even assuming that it is though, that's two or three years where we could be developing prospects that we could be trading for now. That's also two or three years where guys like Markov, Cole and Pleks will be drained of their diminishing returns.

If we got even late firsts for Cole and Subban + a good prospect for Pleks (which is realistic) then we'll probably fall in the standings this year (we may fall anyway) and get another top pick. Now add that to what we already have. How could we NOT be contenders in three years?

You're saying that we might be contenders with what we have in a few years and maybe you're right. I think if we cash in some assets now, we'd be ensuring ourselves of it. And all I care about are cups. That's it.

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