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Value of Malkin (compared to Crosby)?

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Old
01-18-2013, 02:19 PM
  #51
Shady Machine
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ugene Malkin View Post
That's nice and all, but Geno won his Conn smythe the year of Sids bad ankle sprain which takes a full year to heal while not straining it, now put in that he's skating 2/3 months later.

I look at it the most easiest way possible.

Take away Malkins wingers, now take away Sids.

Enough said.

Other than injuries to, Sid, Geno can't keep up. Before Sids head issues he was ready to set the bare that I don't think anyone has touched since he himself put up 122. When Geno can do this stuff when Sids playing "fully" healthy, Geno's a notch below.

Unfortunately they lost a half a season so this stuff will have to be relegated to next season.
What are you talking about? Sid had his ankle injury in the 07-08 season. Malkin won the Conne Smythe and Art Ross in the 08-09 season. So he went head to head with healthy Sid and beat him (at least in the playoffs unless you are really arguing that Sid wasn't healthy 15 months after the injury).

Also, Sid had Kunitz-Guerin in the playoffs while Geno had Talbot Feds so I'm not sure what you're getting at there. Until Neal, Sid has had the first crack at the top winger on the team. So when you take all of that away, you're argument doesn't have a leg to stand on.

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01-18-2013, 02:21 PM
  #52
wgknestrick
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Originally Posted by 10 Min Misconduct View Post
If I had to rate them out of 10;

Crosby= 9.25

Malkin= 8.0
GTFO

8.0? Kessel and Hossa are 8s.

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01-18-2013, 02:22 PM
  #53
Shady Machine
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Originally Posted by MonsterSurge View Post
Crosby can make 3rd line players look like 1st line players. Malkin can't do that. However, when Malkin is on his game, he's almost unstoppable.
Examples please? This is mostly false. The only possible example is Armstrong. Also, Malkin won the Conne Smythe with Talbot and Feds as his wingers.

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01-18-2013, 02:23 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by wgknestrick View Post
GTFO

8.0? Kessel and Hossa are 8s.
Didn't you hear? Kessel is a gutless, lazy punk with no heart and Hossa just sucks because hahawebeatyouinthefinals.

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01-18-2013, 02:23 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by 10 Min Misconduct View Post
If I had to rate them out of 10;

Crosby= 9.25

Malkin= 8.0
That's quite a big gap. I strongly disagree. I could see Sid 9.25 and Malkin 8.75 but any gap larger than that is wrong IMO.

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01-18-2013, 02:24 PM
  #56
UnderratedBrooks44
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Originally Posted by Shady Machine View Post
That's quite a big gap. I strongly disagree. I could see Sid 9.25 and Malkin 8.75 but any gap larger than that is wrong IMO.
Jeez I think you guys are harsh. Malkin is an 8.75 on a list of all-time greatest players. Too many Art Ross trophies in this town clouding people's perspective I think

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01-18-2013, 02:26 PM
  #57
Shady Machine
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Originally Posted by UnderratedBrooks44 View Post
Jeez I think you guys are harsh. Malkin is an 8.75 on a list of all-time greatest players. Too many Art Ross trophies in this town clouding people's perspective I think
I didn't make my point clear. I don't know where he got his rating system but I was saying that IF you believe Sid is better than Malkin, at MOST it is by .5 points on this strange scale. Personally, if 10 is the perfect player, Gretz and Lemieux are 9.5's, Sid and Geno at this point are 9's. Again, this scale is totally subjective and made up off the top of my head.

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01-18-2013, 02:30 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shady Machine View Post
Examples please? This is mostly false. The only possible example is Armstrong. Also, Malkin won the Conne Smythe with Talbot and Feds as his wingers.
That's how I see it. It's my opinion...

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01-18-2013, 03:00 PM
  #59
Shady Machine
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Originally Posted by MonsterSurge View Post
That's how I see it. It's my opinion...
Fair enough. My opinion is that it is a wrong opinion

I can point to Duper being every bit as productive with Staal as with Sid so there really isn't any evidence. But you're allowed to have an opinion not based on evidence if you want.

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01-18-2013, 03:03 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Shady Machine View Post
Fair enough. My opinion is that it is a wrong opinion

I can point to Duper being every bit as productive with Staal as with Sid so there really isn't any evidence. But you're allowed to have an opinion not based on evidence if you want.
Does it really bother you that much that I think that?

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01-18-2013, 03:07 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by MonsterSurge View Post
Does it really bother you that much that I think that?
No, not at all

This is a message board and you made a declarative statement that has little to no evidence to support it so I just disagreed. I'm not sure why you think I would be upset by simply countering your statement.

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01-18-2013, 03:12 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Shady Machine View Post
No, not at all

This is a message board and you made a declarative statement that has little to no evidence to support it so I just disagreed. I'm not sure why you think I would be upset by simply countering your statement.
I was just curious. I don't know how to pick apart someone's skating and such, so I just base it off of what I think. I'd like to learn how to put my thoughts on players to text.


(Sorry for the random side conversation)

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Old
01-18-2013, 03:30 PM
  #63
Shady Machine
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MonsterSurge View Post
I was just curious. I don't know how to pick apart someone's skating and such, so I just base it off of what I think. I'd like to learn how to put my thoughts on players to text.


(Sorry for the random side conversation)
No problem. Yeah I mean the "Sid makes players better" argument has been used a lot around here over the years (well at least since I joined the site in 2010). It's not necessarily wrong, I just don't see statistical evidence to support it. I think the better statement might be "Sid can succeed with nearly anyone on his line". He doesn't NEED an all star winger to be the best player in the game. Of course, it certainly would help.

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Old
01-18-2013, 05:02 PM
  #64
Darth Vitale
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Since neither player's astronomical value can be estimated by any mathematical techniques known to modern man, the question cannot be answered. But conservatively, he's worth .0966 percent less than Crosby. And about 4000% more than anyone else in the league. And at least 782% of that is due to his accent and personality.

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01-18-2013, 05:15 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Chancellor Vitale View Post
Since neither player's astronomical value can be estimated by any mathematical techniques known to modern man, the question cannot be answered. But conservatively, he's worth .0966 percent less than Crosby. And about 4000% more than anyone else in the league. And at least 782% of that is due to his accent and personality.
This seems about right.

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Old
01-18-2013, 06:13 PM
  #66
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Always believed this: Geno's high is Lemieuxesque (or prime Jagr), in the sense that he just totally controls the flow of the game.

Great/'On' Geno > Great/'On' Sid. BUT, you see great Sid with a lot more consistency (then again, in Geno's defense, if he were consistently as great as he sometimes can be, he'd be Mario 2.0, and we're never going to see that again).

Average/Good Sid > Average/Good Geno. Nobody should debate that.

I also think that Sid is a player who is a perfect fit for Bylsma's system, while Geno is a better fit for a more defensively oriented, trapping system. Just a thought . . .

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01-18-2013, 06:14 PM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chancellor Vitale View Post
Since neither player's astronomical value can be estimated by any mathematical techniques known to modern man, the question cannot be answered. But conservatively, he's worth .0966 percent less than Crosby. And about 4000% more than anyone else in the league. And at least 782% of that is due to his accent and personality.
Link to mathematical formulas?

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Old
01-18-2013, 07:01 PM
  #68
Ugene Malkin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chancellor Vitale View Post
Since neither player's astronomical value can be estimated by any mathematical techniques known to modern man, the question cannot be answered. But conservatively, he's worth .0966 percent less than Crosby. And about 4000% more than anyone else in the league. And at least 782% of that is due to his accent and personality.

They don't take into consideration the differences in defensive match-ups in the playoffs, all the injuries to everyone throughout the seasons and the simple fact with two top wingers the majority of the season, Geno at best was only gonna match his best season around the 113 mark. (missed 7 Games)

Sid has shown he takes his game well above the level Geno has put forth at any given point in his career, not once but twice.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Shady Machine View Post
What are you talking about? Sid had his ankle injury in the 07-08 season. Malkin won the Conne Smythe and Art Ross in the 08-09 season. So he went head to head with healthy Sid and beat him (at least in the playoffs unless you are really arguing that Sid wasn't healthy 15 months after the injury).

Also, Sid had Kunitz-Guerin in the playoffs while Geno had Talbot Feds so I'm not sure what you're getting at there. Until Neal, Sid has had the first crack at the top winger on the team. So when you take all of that away, you're argument doesn't have a leg to stand on.
Crosby's injury I assure you wasn't healed 100%. When those types of injuries happen they take a regular person an entire year to heal who doesn't skate for a living. Now put into place he was skating on it just months after he did it. It's going to take longer because he's putting all that strain on it. It showed the next season especially early.

Read above on some of your takes I wrote above. Players were injured for good portions of seasons and playing hurt as well. Kunitz = Hernia.

My main point is look at all of it before you judge.

I'd label Sid as a clear 10.0>>>Malkin = 9.0>>>>>>everyone else.

It's the same thing when he got hurt with the ankle, they all wanted to try and lump everyone else with him, but when actually healthy he sets the bar higher than the previous one he set before he got hurt the first time. Then the Winter classic happened.

You all are selling him short again, and I'm sure everyone is gonna get a reality check once more.

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Old
01-18-2013, 11:19 PM
  #69
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01-18-2013, 11:28 PM
  #70
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It changes on a yearly basis but I don't see how you can chose Crosby over Malkin at the moment.

This of course may change in a month.

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01-18-2013, 11:42 PM
  #71
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I have to see Sid get back to where he was in 2010. If it's true he's in the best shape of his life, I think anything is possible this season for him. Would love to see him truly separate himself in the scoring race. In a shortened season, if he can get on a tear, he could run away with it.

Lest we forget, he put up 50 pts in his 25 game pt streak on a team without Staal, a gimpy Malkin and no Neal. If he only needs a couple weeks to get back in that form? I wouldn't put it past him to push 100 pts this year.

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01-18-2013, 11:46 PM
  #72
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The season Sid went down with his concussions, he was playing better than Malkin ever has. He was racking up goals and points at an unreal clip, but he was also dominating faceoffs, playing great defense, and managing the puck better than any superstar I've seen. He never compromised the smart play so he could try a fancy, high-risk play to score.

I take that Sid over Geno, amazing as he was last year. A total full-menu superstar. Remains to be seen if he can hit those heights again though.

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01-18-2013, 11:55 PM
  #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mpp9 View Post
I have to see Sid get back to where he was in 2010. If it's true he's in the best shape of his life, I think anything is possible this season for him. Would love to see him truly separate himself in the scoring race. In a shortened season, if he can get on a tear, he could run away with it.

Lest we forget, he put up 50 pts in his 25 game pt streak on a team without Staal, a gimpy Malkin and no Neal. If he only needs a couple weeks to get back in that form? I wouldn't put it past him to push 100 pts this year.
IMO Sids Rocket season is nothing short of insanity. Winning a Rocket while playing the full 200' of the ice is crazy. Think about it... who else does that? It wasn't Mario, Gretz or Jags. Good defensive wingers like Howe and Iggy don't have to come all the way back in the defensive zone. Players that play like Sid are usually assist heavy in stats like Trottier, Forsberg or Dats. Sids pretty unique in terms of great players. I hope he can keep that goal scoring up.

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Old
01-19-2013, 12:01 AM
  #74
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Yep. Geno had a hell of a season last year. Played the best hockey of his career and is currently the best player on the planet.

But Sid's 2010 season was just insanity. Like RRP said, he didn't make high risk plays or sacrifice his defensive duties to hit those numbers. He was our most reliable player on the ice every night.

I think we're just scratching the surface of what he can do.

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01-19-2013, 12:17 AM
  #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mpp9 View Post
I have to see Sid get back to where he was in 2010. If it's true he's in the best shape of his life, I think anything is possible this season for him. Would love to see him truly separate himself in the scoring race. In a shortened season, if he can get on a tear, he could run away with it.

Lest we forget, he put up 50 pts in his 25 game pt streak on a team without Staal, a gimpy Malkin and no Neal. If he only needs a couple weeks to get back in that form? I wouldn't put it past him to push 100 pts this year.
What if Malkin gets where he was in 2009, 2012 ?
What if he will score in PO 2013 the same way he scored in 2009 PO?
I think anything is possible this season for him too.

Let's not forget that this points issue is a secondary thing. Points are needed only to win the SC, otherwise they are USELESS, or just to entertain fans, no more.
Let me remind that Malkin's superperformance (and his points of course) in 2009 PO was not IN VAIN, WAS NOT USELESS. Stanley Cup is a proof.
It seems to me that a lot of fans always keep talking about Crosby's potential in the future, not merits in the past: "Sid will put up a helluva number of points this season that will allow Pens to win SC".
May be. He is a great player and he can do it for sure. But Malkin too can do it. We've seen it already.
It's not fair to forget the player's merits. Especially for Pens fans

Quote:
Originally Posted by mpp9 View Post
Yep. Geno had a hell of a season last year. Played the best hockey of his career
I don't agree with this simply cos it didn't help Pens to win SC last season


Last edited by od71: 01-19-2013 at 09:58 AM.
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