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Zack Bogosian to Detroit

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Old
01-18-2013, 06:16 AM
  #276
almostawake
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Townsend Beasley View Post
Wonder what kind of value helm has to wpg?
A fair bit, but he's not a player they'd be looking for in a Bogosian trade.

If the Jets traded Bogosian they'd need guys with first line/first pairing potential.

As much as the Jets would love to get Helm he wouldn't have enough impact on their line-up to be a significant component of a Bogosian trade.

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01-18-2013, 07:15 AM
  #277
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
I don't believe Winnipeg will deal a talented, young, established defenseman like Bogosian just because they have an 18 year old defenseman looking good in college.

And if they for some reason do choose to deal him, I really don't believe they'd be stupid enough to trade him for NHL-unproven, non blue-chip prospects.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
1. Nyquist is a good prospect. He's not a blue-chip prospect.
2. Kindl's draft position has little bearing on his current value. Or can Isles fans call Thomas Hickey's value a "4th overall"?
3. There are no guarantees on draft position, especially if the Wings were to gain a top-pairing defenseman in a deal like this.

Bogosian is 22, 6'3", strong as an ox, played 23 minutes a game last year, led his team in SHTOI, and scored 30 points in 65 games.

The Jets are not idiots, and so have no reason to give the Wings a young, talented, all-around top pairing defenseman for a mediocre defenseman and a handful of magic beans.
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Originally Posted by billybudd View Post
No package built from any combination of 2 or 3 of these players would be nearly enough.

Keep in mind, Bogo is a big, physical, proven, youthful player with fantastic pedigree who plays the position of greatest current scarcity.

White's a pending UFA. Quincey is a gigantic downgrade and older. Nyquist and Tatar are small forwards who haven't demonstrated the ability to do much of anything in the NHL. And Kindl, like Quincey, is worse and older.

You can't acquire a player like Bogosian for a collection of smallish "maybes" and older, worse players.
Thank you. I will take the above as proof that the majority of Wings fans are knowledgable and realistic.

As everyone can see from 10 pages of posts that Bogo is extreamly popular in Winnipeg, and probably the overall fan favorite. Not one Jet fan wanted any part of the original proposal or any combination of alternatives. Any sane organization holds onto defenseman like Bogosian with all their might as he represents the most valuable comodity in hockey. Young, big, skilled, mobile d-man who has already demonstrated top pairing potential at 22. Jets are much more likely to sign him to a max length 8 year big ticket contract than trade him.

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01-18-2013, 07:44 AM
  #278
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KingBogo View Post
Thank you. I will take the above as proof that the majority of Wings fans are knowledgable and realistic.
You just quoted two guys that are not Wings fans, at least from what I have seen around here.

There are plenty of realistic Wings fans though. Some are more optimistic others are more pessimistic, like all the fanbases around here we run the gamut. As long as realistic doesn't stand for code of agreeing with me in this instance that is fine, often when thrown out around here though that is what realistic seems to mean.

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01-18-2013, 08:53 AM
  #279
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Originally Posted by KingBogo View Post
Thank you. I will take the above as proof that the majority of Wings fans are knowledgable and realistic.
Except the part about where he says Nyquist is not a Blue Chip Prospect. That is a load of dung. As far as draft position that is part of why the Isles took Hickey. It speaks to his pedigree/untapped potential. Is draft position significant on a waiver pickup not really but its part of the player no doubt. (especially with a defensemen who develop so slowly).

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01-18-2013, 09:18 AM
  #280
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Townsend Beasley View Post
Wonder what kind of value helm has to wpg?
Definitely not the value he has to Detroit from what I understand.

I saw him bandied around as a main piece in a deal and he absolutely would not be that for us. I think he forever stays in Detroit, due to the value he has with them.

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01-18-2013, 09:23 AM
  #281
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
1. Nyquist is a good prospect. He's not a blue-chip prospect.
He is very much a blue chip prospect when you look at his overall game. He is ranked top 20-30 in nearly every scouting service and played very well at both ends of the rink with Grand Rapids. He was also one of the best college players. He's been highly touted everywhere he's been.

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01-18-2013, 09:32 AM
  #282
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Originally Posted by broc View Post
I just don't think the Wings have enough high value young pieces for a realistic offer at a Bogosian or Kane. Most of these offers are worthy of an immediate knee-jerk "no"... - as in, they're not even close.
^that's the key....good pieces, but not high end, and that's what's being forgotten here me thinks from Wings fans point of view. the Jets would essentially be trading a not so easy to come by high end d-man for a group of useful, but not as high end players.

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01-18-2013, 09:32 AM
  #283
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stakesishigh View Post
Not enough going the Jets way.
Agreed, no way they make that one for one move.

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01-18-2013, 09:42 AM
  #284
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Originally Posted by Tortorella View Post
He is very much a blue chip prospect when you look at his overall game. He is ranked top 20-30 in nearly every scouting service and played very well at both ends of the rink with Grand Rapids. He was also one of the best college players. He's been highly touted everywhere he's been.
Is that so? Like McKeen's? HF?

Listen, as a Pens fan, my team some prospects that are consistently ranked as high or higher than Nyquist - Morrow, Despres, etc. I don't consider them blue chip prospects either.

You're talking about a guy that's supposed to be the main piece coming back for a 22 year old first pairing defenseman with size, strength, and a great all-around game. He's not a sure enough thing to bank on.


Last edited by Warm Cookies: 01-18-2013 at 09:49 AM.
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01-18-2013, 10:26 AM
  #285
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Nyquist isn't quite enough.

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01-18-2013, 12:31 PM
  #286
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I think Detroit would have to offer Nyquist, another prospect and a pick. Or maybe even another pick, but then they need to get a lower pick in return too.

And got to keep in mind that defense-men often is valued lower than forwards.

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01-18-2013, 12:33 PM
  #287
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Originally Posted by TheFactor View Post
Sorry but year after year I hear and see their names high in the prospect ranks, but have yet to see what they can do in the NHL. Is that brendan Smith dude ever gonna make it?
Just because Ken Holland likes to play dinosaurs over youth doesn't diminish Nyquist or Smith's value.

The problem with Red Wing draft picks is they are too low so they aren't as good looking as teams that have sucked and have a handful of #1s *cough cough* Pittsburgh, Edmonton *cough cough*

That's the nature of the NHL now though, tank for a couple years and stock up on draft picks.

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01-18-2013, 12:51 PM
  #288
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It will definately take more than what the poster has offered. WIN doesn't really need another small fwd in their top 6 do they. I would say the following
One of Quincey/Kindl
prospect
1st
I can't see DET giving up Smith as they have been developing him for years. He is not that far off from Bogo.

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01-18-2013, 01:03 PM
  #289
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Nyquist isn't enough that's for sure.

We won't be trading Smith as package because that doesn't solve our problem.
We would probably trade White/Quiency/Kindl as part of package if we have to send D back.

We don't really have anything Jets want that we are willing to part with => bad trading partner

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01-18-2013, 02:02 PM
  #290
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Originally Posted by rockinghockey View Post
It will definately take more than what the poster has offered. WIN doesn't really need another small fwd in their top 6 do they. I would say the following
One of Quincey/Kindl
prospect
1st
I can't see DET giving up Smith as they have been developing him for years. He is not that far off from Bogo.
Can you please explain to me how Brendan Smith, picked 27th overall who is 24 years old with a whopping 14 career NHL games is not that far off from Bogosian drafted 3rd overall, still only 23, and already playing 264 NHL games?

Smith is a decent prospect for sure, but if you put up a poll I am sure over 90% would take Bogo over him.

Bogo > Smith AINEC

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01-18-2013, 02:28 PM
  #292
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Originally Posted by crashman View Post
This is true, but Detroit develops their players slow and this is Smith rookie year. At the end of this short season those 90%ers might want to change their vote. I personally think that Bogosian was rushed into the NHL.

Bogo did appear to be rushed but seemed to begin a positive turnaround last year with the help of Charlie Huddy. I really hope he can develop into what we all expect.

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01-18-2013, 02:33 PM
  #293
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Originally Posted by crashman View Post
This is true, but Detroit develops their players slow and this is Smith rookie year. At the end of this short season those 90%ers might want to change their vote. <b>I personally think that Bogosian was rushed into the NHL.</b>
Every Thrasher first rounder in the last 3 years of the organization were rushed in. It stunted their growth, to be sure. Bogosian's maturation was also stymied by the defense coach, and flourished under Charlie Huddy's watch last year. When Bogo's wrist is 100% fully healed, the kid will only trend upward offensively while maintaining his hard nosed defensive play that the Jets fans were privy to watch last year.

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01-18-2013, 02:41 PM
  #294
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Originally Posted by TOGuy14 View Post
Can you please explain to me how Brendan Smith, picked 27th overall who is 24 years old with a whopping 14 career NHL games is not that far off from Bogosian drafted 3rd overall, still only 23, and already playing 264 NHL games?

Smith is a decent prospect for sure, but if you put up a poll I am sure over 90% would take Bogo over him.

Bogo > Smith AINEC
The bolded is about the only thing in the post you were even close on.

1. When you were drafted doesn't mean jack squat in terms of how good of a player you are.

2. Smith is 23, and it's very well known that Detroit holds their prospects down until they're PAST being ready to be in the NHL. Not to mention, Detroit was very deep defensively up until this year. If you honestly think Smith wouldn't have cracked the Jets lineup by now, you're delusional.

3. I'm absolutely positive people would take Bogosian over Smith, because he's actually played. A better option might be able to make that poll in three years.

4. Looking at Bogosian's numbers, I think that's pretty attainable for Smith considering his projection. So sure, Bogosian is better, but to say "AINEC" is BS.

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01-18-2013, 03:12 PM
  #295
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I like how people de-value Detroit's prospects simply because they are a few years older than other prospects. Detroit is committed to developing players in the minors/overseas and over-ripening them before giving them a shot on the big club. Whether that's a good strategy or not is debatable, but it doesn't automatically negate a player's potential.

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01-18-2013, 03:39 PM
  #296
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Originally Posted by Bob Probert Owns You View Post
I like how people de-value Detroit's prospects simply because they are a few years older than other prospects. Detroit is committed to developing players in the minors/overseas and over-ripening them before giving them a shot on the big club. Whether that's a good strategy or not is debatable, but it doesn't automatically negate a player's potential.
Truth...
But NHL proven >>>>> any other proven
same with AHL/KHL proven >>>> junior proven

This just sometimes seems to escape people...

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01-18-2013, 03:41 PM
  #297
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Probert Owns You View Post
I like how people de-value Detroit's prospects simply because they are a few years older than other prospects. Detroit is committed to developing players in the minors/overseas and over-ripening them before giving them a shot on the big club. Whether that's a good strategy or not is debatable, but it doesn't automatically negate a player's potential.
It doesn't negate their potential, but it doesn't help to overinflate potential just because of Detroit's MO.

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01-18-2013, 04:11 PM
  #298
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Probert Owns You View Post
I like how people de-value Detroit's prospects simply because they are a few years older than other prospects. Detroit is committed to developing players in the minors/overseas and over-ripening them before giving them a shot on the big club. Whether that's a good strategy or not is debatable, but it doesn't automatically negate a player's potential.
Quote:
Originally Posted by garret9 View Post
Truth...
But NHL proven >>>>> any other proven
same with AHL/KHL proven >>>> junior proven

This just sometimes seems to escape people...
Quote:
Originally Posted by DespoticNewt View Post
It doesn't negate their potential, but it doesn't help to overinflate potential just because of Detroit's MO.

all three of these are totally accurate.

Just because they haven't played in the NHL yet like others have said doesn't mean they're worse prospects.

Just because they're on detroit and haven't made the NHL doesn't mean they would on any other roster.

But, regardless of what system your in, a player having proven an ability at a lower level (ex as a 3rd /4th liner) does not necessarily move your ceiling of a higher level but definitely brings your floor up. A player doing great in the AHL doesn't move his ceiling, but it also doesn't move his floor up past that of an AHL player. Nothing's a sure bet until it happens.

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01-18-2013, 04:27 PM
  #299
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If Winnipeg was trading him it would only make sense to trade him for a young impact proven forward. Think Matt Duchene/Tyler Seguin ect. I don't see us trading him for a combination of pieces that could be considered "fair value"

It makes no sense for Winnipeg to trade him for less when what they are lacking is high end impact players.

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01-18-2013, 05:25 PM
  #300
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Quote:
Originally Posted by garret9 View Post
Truth...
But NHL proven >>>>> any other proven
same with AHL/KHL proven >>>> junior proven

This just sometimes seems to escape people...
I would say one of the big things I have seen out of the new Jets group is that they are drafting players with mature games. Mark Scheifele was more of a projection type, but that was signed off on by a Jets legend.

It would not surprise me given this trend if they didn't value some of the older prospects a little more than other teams. They play more complete pro games because of the leagues they are developing in.

A big chunk of Detroit's prospects play pro hockey. That means their floor values are a little higher than a lot of people that want to not believe in their system.

Jarnkrok, Smith, Nyquist, Tatar all give pro numbers when you're evaluating them. When looking at the whole system you also have Ferraro, Marchenko, Pulkkinen, Andersson, Almqvist, Backman and now both Sheahan and Mrazek putting up good pro numbers. As pointed out that might not change their ceiling but it does allow for a better understanding of what they do against men and higher age groups.

Like you said NHL proven should be a big deal and it certainly is for for Bogosian especially after his rebound season. But there is something to be said for Nyquist and Smith who have never had a sub-par season the closest you can get is some five years ago as freshman. That is an impressive track record, for instance Nyquist outperformed many of the young proven NHL players during this lockout down in the AHL and I don't think that is an accident. He will need to get the NHL games in to get his value to where people in Detroit truly think it is, but GMs and talent evaluators around the league probably have a good understanding about what he is about and trust that he is an NHL caliber player and circumstances are at work preventing it.

I don't think Nyquist or Smith have lost a lot of value to people running teams in the NHL despite what is pointed out in terms of age and NHL games played by a lot of people around here.

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