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P.K. Subban Thread - Mk III - Unsigned Edition

View Poll Results: Who should break first
Bergevin 61 25.00%
Subban 183 75.00%
Voters: 244. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
01-18-2013, 01:42 PM
  #351
Knuckles30
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Originally Posted by haburger View Post
you re telling me the habs cant find a way to fit they re best d man into the lineup because of cap constraints?ha ha ha.ok.good thing mb signed prust.
They have enough cap space to follow their plan, which obviously was to sign Subban to a bridge deal similar to those signed by Pacioretty and Price.

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01-18-2013, 01:45 PM
  #352
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
They have all the cap space they want. It's not about HVAING enough cap space it's about only using what SHOULD be used so you have room to build a strong team. Add other players from outside and keep our own RFA's/UFA's.
That's not always possible, in fact, it rarely is...every team is going to have difficult decisions to make with a salary cap. Sometimes you have to overpay some players, while trying to find bargains elsewhere to offset it...or sometimes you have to get creative with trades, etc.

Teams like the Flyers, Devils or Rangers for example have always been capped teams, yet they always find a way to get around it. If you draft & develop well, make astute trades and signings, then the salary cap is just a puzzle and some GM's are better than others at making the pieces fit.

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01-18-2013, 01:48 PM
  #353
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They have enough cap space to follow their plan, which obviously was to sign Subban to a bridge deal similar to those signed by Pacioretty and Price.
very rare are instances, where teams are limited in trying to improve their team, because they don't have enough cap space

It's a myth...teams that need to make cap space to do something specifically, always find a way.

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01-18-2013, 01:48 PM
  #354
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
50 mil over how many years? Doughty is 56 over 8.
I think the most they are asking is 36M over 6y. Hopefully they could negotiate a deal so that it ends up around 5.25M for 6y. Something along those lines.

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01-18-2013, 01:50 PM
  #355
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Originally Posted by 2 Chainz View Post
Pacioretty has one season over 25 points and he's apparently proven yet Subban isn't proven, makes sense.
It's not over being proven. It's over NOT letting the inmates run the asylum. Pacioretty and Price both signed small deals after their ELC. Same with guys like Higgins. That's what Bergy wants. And if he wants that to be a team policy, he can't break on the very first guy he tries to sign. A couple years down the road, maybe you bend if a player is that good. However, not here.

Now if Subban wanted a long-term deal worth $4.5M or something, I'm sure Bergy would entertain that because that's fair value if Subban wants to skip his RFA years. But the rumored $6M over 8-years is completely ridiculous at this point, especially with the cap going down and having to sign Desharnais next year.

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01-18-2013, 01:54 PM
  #356
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
very rare are instances, where teams are limited in trying to improve their team, because they don't have enough cap space

It's a myth...teams that need to make cap space to do something specifically, always find a way.
I absolutely agree, but circumstances where training camp is 1 week long and the cap is dropping by 6M next year are not normal.

I'm not saying the Habs shouldn't sign Subban to a $6M a year deal, I'm saying that they can't without altering their roster, short of deferring bonuses. This is not opinion. This is fact.

Personally, I would be thrilled if PK signed for 8 years at anything under $6M. I think the guy is a star and a breath of fresh air for the league. My only point is that even if Bergevin agrees with me, he can't do it until he clears the cap space.

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01-18-2013, 01:56 PM
  #357
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Originally Posted by Knuckles30 View Post
Ok, so let's assume they defer the $2.5 million in bonuses and sign Subban to a $6M deal. Then next year is at $8.57 cap space - $2M deferred bonuses - $6M for Subban = $570K cap space, with only 17 players under contract. Even if you buy out Kaberle, you've now got ~$5M to sign 7 players, including Desharnais.

Pushing the bonuses to next year would be a HUGE mistake.
A good chunk of the bonuses are probably unlikely to be earned unless Galchenyuk wins a trophy or is like top 10 in league scoring.

Like 417 said, there are several ways to manage the cap. There are always options. If Galchenyuk is good enough to be earning his bonuses, then you can entertain trading a Plekanec or Desharnais to save cap room and then you put Galchenyuk at center. You can amnesty Bourque and retain salary in a Kaberle trade. Maybe Cole retires.

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01-18-2013, 01:56 PM
  #358
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I think they signed Prust to be a role player and foster a different culture in the room - which is one of the reasons they let Gomez go imo. Do you think they hired Therrien to coach us to the cup?

Your argument would hold if we lose PK, but we are in full control of the situation with PK. Sign him short term, then lock him up if he continues to put up the points - it might cost us 'more' but at that point in time MB will have more faith when he signs him. Like I said before, if that time comes and PK isn't signed THEN I will criticize MB.
Prust remains a dime a dozen player. We could have re-signed Staubitz for a year at 1m or less, and then grab another guy next year. No need to give a scrapper 2.5M for 4years. You'd think we'd have learned that with Laraque. Prust will be a fan favorite because of his role here, but he still is easily replaceable.

Our best Dman and arguably most promising young star is sitting at home, hasn't practiced one day with us, and will likely not play the season opener because he still is without a contract, yet you think we are in full control? You are quite gullible..

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01-18-2013, 01:58 PM
  #359
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Originally Posted by Knuckles30 View Post
I absolutely agree, but circumstances where training camp is 1 week long and the cap is dropping by 6M next year are not normal.

I'm not saying the Habs shouldn't sign Subban to a $6M a year deal, I'm saying that they can't without altering their roster, short of deferring bonuses. This is not opinion. This is fact.

Personally, I would be thrilled if PK signed for 8 years at anything under $6M. I think the guy is a star and a breath of fresh air for the league. My only point is that even if Bergevin agrees with me, he can't do it until he clears the cap space.
And maybe altering the roster improves the team?

Last year around this time, we were having a miserable season and had Scott Gomez's albatross salary as well as Mike Cammalleri's 6M on the books for a guy who clearly didn't want to be here.

1 year later they're both gone from the books (I realize we needed to acquire a salary back in Bourque)

Things can change quickly in the span of 1 year...

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01-18-2013, 01:59 PM
  #360
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Prust remains a dime a dozen player. We could have re-signed Staubitz for a year at 1m or less, and then grab another guy next year. No need to give a scrapper 2.5M for 4years. You'd think we'd have learned that with Laraque. Prust will be a fan favorite because of his role here, but he still is easily replaceable.

Our best Dman and arguably most promising young star is sitting at home, hasn't practiced one day with us, and will likely not play the season opener because he still is without a contract, yet you think we are in full control? You are quite gullible..
Cmon man !!! Staubitz is NO Prust. Either you haven't seen what Prusty brings to the table or you are just guessing.

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01-18-2013, 02:07 PM
  #361
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
And maybe altering the roster improves the team?

Last year around this time, we were having a miserable season and had Scott Gomez's albatross salary as well as Mike Cammalleri's 6M on the books for a guy who clearly didn't want to be here.

1 year later they're both gone from the books (I realize we needed to acquire a salary back in Bourque)

Things can change quickly in the span of 1 year...
Read my post again. I am not against altering the roster, but these things require time and a willing partner, and PK can't be signed to a big contract until it is done.

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01-18-2013, 02:09 PM
  #362
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Originally Posted by Marc the Habs Fan View Post
A good chunk of the bonuses are probably unlikely to be earned unless Galchenyuk wins a trophy or is like top 10 in league scoring.
My understanding was that the full bonus cap hit gets applied to next year regardless. Is that not the case? If it's only the earned portion, then why doesn't every team defer all bonus cap hit every year?

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01-18-2013, 02:10 PM
  #363
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Read my post again. I am not against altering the roster, but these things require time and a willing partner, and PK can't be signed to a big contract until it is done.
Of course he can...it'll just require Bergevin to get extra creative or in other words, it'll require Bergevin to do what he's paid for.

Manage

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01-18-2013, 02:13 PM
  #364
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
Of course he can...it'll just require Bergevin to get extra creative or in other words, it'll require Bergevin to do what he's paid for.

Manage
umm... no he can't. The contract will not be approved by the league unless they have the cap space (as of midnight tonight - technically they can be 10% over the cap during the day today).

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01-18-2013, 02:14 PM
  #365
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Prust remains a dime a dozen player. We could have re-signed Staubitz for a year at 1m or less, and then grab another guy next year. No need to give a scrapper 2.5M for 4years. You'd think we'd have learned that with Laraque. Prust will be a fan favorite because of his role here, but he still is easily replaceable.

Our best Dman and arguably most promising young star is sitting at home, hasn't practiced one day with us, and will likely not play the season opener because he still is without a contract, yet you think we are in full control? You are quite gullible..
I'm not saying Prust is worth his cap hit, he probably won't be from a pure value standpoint, but they had to overpay to get him. He adds a dimension of balls/grit/toughness that the team needed. Staubitz is as good a fighter, but he can't play a regular shift. Prust is reliable defensively, plays an "energy" role and can kill pemalities.

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01-18-2013, 02:17 PM
  #366
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That's not always possible, in fact, it rarely is...every team is going to have difficult decisions to make with a salary cap. Sometimes you have to overpay some players, while trying to find bargains elsewhere to offset it...or sometimes you have to get creative with trades, etc.

Teams like the Flyers, Devils or Rangers for example have always been capped teams, yet they always find a way to get around it. If you draft & develop well, make astute trades and signings, then the salary cap is just a puzzle and some GM's are better than others at making the pieces fit.
It's not just about the cap structure it's also about sending a message to other players oin the way to 2nd contracts(DD) that they do their business a certain way. Not sure it's the right or wrong plan but MB has a plan.

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01-18-2013, 02:19 PM
  #367
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Originally Posted by Knuckles30 View Post
My understanding was that the full bonus cap hit gets applied to next year regardless. Is that not the case? If it's only the earned portion, then why doesn't every team defer all bonus cap hit every year?
It's only if he earns the bonuses.

Deferring the bonuses is only available if you don't have the cap room to absorb them this year. Not every team spends to the cap.

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01-18-2013, 02:25 PM
  #368
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Your are picking and choosing now. Many proven D make much less than what Subban is asking for.
You're correct. I was picking and choosing - Habs' d-men past and present. I look at supply and demand on a league wide basis and on a team by team basis. On this team if Josh Gorges is worth 3.9 / yr. for six years and a NTC then Subban is worth at least 5 mil. I admit I am biased when it comes to multi dimensional d-men. PK can hit. PK can play D. PK can move the puck. PK can shoot. Gorge does about one of those. I'm not trying to take anything away from Gorges but what exactly did he prove. His name surfaced league wide after the 2009 - 2010 playoffs. He missed half of the 2010 - 2011 season.

IDK, I don't care if PK is a UFA, RFA or UFO (laugh) I think he's worth more than Gorges' almost 4 mil by a longshot. So that easily puts him in the 5 mil or 6 mil range I guess.

Look at Kaberle? The Habs' acquired that contract for an offensive, super soft d-man. They handed Markov a contract earned by riding the infirmary.

I guess if I am PK's agent I'm maybe pointing those things out.

I thought I saw this comment different times "what has PK done in two years". My answer to that is more than Markov, Kaberle and Gorges combined.

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01-18-2013, 02:26 PM
  #369
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Originally Posted by Marc the Habs Fan View Post
It's only if he earns the bonuses.

Deferring the bonuses is only available if you don't have the cap room to absorb them this year. Not every team spends to the cap.
I stand corrected, then. I don't know the details of the bonuses, but half of it is probably unattainable.

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01-18-2013, 02:34 PM
  #370
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Pacioretty has one season over 25 points and he's apparently proven yet Subban isn't proven, makes sense.
Pacioretty put together a full season and a half consecutively at a very high level. Subban has been inconsistent and has been good for stretches but he hasn't put it all together like Pacioretty has yet.

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01-18-2013, 02:35 PM
  #371
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umm... no he can't. The contract will not be approved by the league unless they have the cap space (as of midnight tonight - technically they can be 10% over the cap during the day today).
I might be wrong, I haven't reviewed all the modalities of the new CBA..but it was my understanding teams could spend up to 70M this year.

They just needed to be under the 64.5M cap for the 2013-2014 season

I might be wrong though

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01-18-2013, 02:37 PM
  #372
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Well my thought is if Bergevin can't sign Subban without losing another core player later then trade Subban.Columbus would be in another division so they would be good trading partners,say Columbus's three 1st round picks for 2013 for Subban.This would solve the Salary Cap problems and probably give the Habs a great draft position all at once,I for one have no problem with that idea.Subban is looking for money along the lines of a top star which he hasn't proven yet and may never reach.

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01-18-2013, 02:39 PM
  #373
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It's not just about the cap structure it's also about sending a message to other players oin the way to 2nd contracts(DD) that they do their business a certain way. Not sure it's the right or wrong plan but MB has a plan.
I hope you're not running away or planning on welching on the bet you lost to me.

I would hope you would be a man of your word. Was I wrong??

As of yet, you haven't acknowledged any of my posts or pm's.

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01-18-2013, 02:41 PM
  #374
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Chantal Desjardins ‏@ChantalCJAD
I just spoke to Don Meehan who says talks are still ongoing with the #Habs regarding @PKSubban1. He stresses talks have not broken off.

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01-18-2013, 02:45 PM
  #375
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Chantal Desjardins ‏@ChantalCJAD
I just spoke to Don Meehan who says talks are still ongoing with the #Habs regarding @PKSubban1. He stresses talks have not broken off.
Who the hell is Chantal Desjardins?

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