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Old
01-17-2013, 07:06 PM
  #101
DeuceMN
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Originally Posted by CanadienShark View Post
Eller is a two way centre with scoring upside. Does that describe Coyle? Seriously asking haha! I feel like I should know, as a Sharks fan, however I only became knowledgeable about prospects over the past 6 months or so.
Minnesota also have another strong two-way C prospect in Larsson. While no disrespect to Eller, he's not what we need.

We need a true sniper and at least one more top 4 d.

In some respects we have the d developing, but we shall see on that. They are probaly 2-3 years for both Brodin and Dumba.

Any trade involving Granlund and/or Dumba at this point will not happen.

Our management is too high on both, and the resources it would take to realistically try and get them would make it unreasonable for the other team.

One other note: Subban is a very gifted player, but our management has been seeking players of strong character that are good teammates. Based on the reputation Subban is starting to garner for himself, I really don't see the Wild being interested, especially for the cost it would take to get him.

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01-17-2013, 10:34 PM
  #102
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God no from Minnesota. Rather wait and see what Dumba does. The 1st is way to big to give up.

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01-18-2013, 04:53 AM
  #103
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Originally Posted by the8bandarmadillo View Post
God no from Minnesota. Rather wait and see what Dumba does. The 1st is way to big to give up.
That 1st would be pretty low, no? Your prospect pool is kind of stacked anyway.

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01-18-2013, 07:02 AM
  #104
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Subban doesn't really interest me. Attitude problems, contract status, and our RHD depth is okay right now.

What about Josh Gorges? Something around Setoguchi or Clutterbuck? You'd need to take Cullen or retain some salary though, shouldn't be too much of a problem now that Gomez got waived. Setoguchi+Phillips+2nd+3rd for Gorges and MTL retains 1M?

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01-18-2013, 07:06 AM
  #105
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Terrible deal for the Wild.

Giving up Dumba on an elc, a first round pick in a deep draft, and a good secondary scorer for a player who may be very good, or may not be, who is going to be paid big dollars. And last but not least, a capped out team is going to take on more salary with the cap dropping drastically next year.

Horribly bad proposal.

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01-18-2013, 07:11 AM
  #106
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Best proposal and most logical proposal I've seen regarding Subban so far. Well done!

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01-18-2013, 08:35 AM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Puhis View Post
Clutterbuck
Setoguchi
Phillips
2014 3rd round pick

For

P.K. Subban
2013 4th round pick

Habs get a fast, shoot-first winger of proven quality and a 3rd-line grinder/energy-guy who can chip in offensively. In addition, Zack Phillips is a promising center who has excellent hands, good vision, very talented offensively without being a liability defensively AND has the ability to grow a great beard.

Wild gets Subban and a mid-round pick.

Remember that Phillips is not just a throw-in: He was a 1st round pick in 2011 draft, and has progressed fairly well. He projects to be a top-6 forward and he has a very high upside. Only reason we'd be interested in moving him is that, well, we're pretty stacked on forward prospects. He'd have to fight Granlund, Zucker, Coyle and Larsson to get a roster spot, and that doesn't include the vets/established NHLers. It's not a knock on him, but right now, there's no room for him.
I don't think this works. Clutterbuck and Setoguchi would both get into the Habs line-up, but it's not a big enough improvement. Clutterbuck would slot into the 4th line above Colby Armstrong, while Setoguchi is basically an Andrei Kostitsyn clone and will slot in on the 2nd line (where we have Galchenyuk right now). Phillips is a solid piece but this is a much worse proposal than the original. I think the original favors the Habs (MTL would have to add a small piece, maybe an Aaron Palushaj who could still be a top-9 forward), but in the deal you proposed it favours Minny and they would have to add a very solid piece. 1st Rounder, at least.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Chreider View Post
Subban doesn't really interest me. Attitude problems, contract status, and our RHD depth is okay right now.

What about Josh Gorges? Something around Setoguchi or Clutterbuck? You'd need to take Cullen or retain some salary though, shouldn't be too much of a problem now that Gomez got waived. Setoguchi+Phillips+2nd+3rd for Gorges and MTL retains 1M?
Gorges is our best defenseman, we're not giving him up for a slight Top-9 upgrade and a couple picks. If I'm trading Gorges, I'd want the original proposal minus Setoguchi (will Cullen coming back to off-set salary). Crazy high price, but crazy thought to think MTL moves Gorges.

Gorges is probably going to be the next captain of this team and is one of the most important pieces. There's a reason a defensive defenseman is getting $3.9M per season. He's THAT good.

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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
Terrible deal for the Wild.

Giving up Dumba on an elc, a first round pick in a deep draft, and a good secondary scorer for a player who may be very good, or may not be, who is going to be paid big dollars. And last but not least, a capped out team is going to take on more salary with the cap dropping drastically next year.

Horribly bad proposal.
May or may not be very good? What?

36 points a +9 rating on a team with only 4 guys over +3.

He's already great and I don't even like him.

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01-18-2013, 11:16 AM
  #108
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
Terrible deal for the Wild.

Giving up Dumba on an elc, a first round pick in a deep draft, and a good secondary scorer for a player who may be very good, or may not be, who is going to be paid big dollars. And last but not least, a capped out team is going to take on more salary with the cap dropping drastically next year.

Horribly bad proposal.
I think you are overexagerating by quite a bit. Not to mention taking all factors into account.

Right now, Minnesota has great players playing and great prospects coming up. They would greatly benefit from adding another top 4 or top pairing defender and Subban would be perfect as he is young, still developing and constantly improving it seems.

The price is very reasonable. They are essentially giving up Dumba who in 2-4 years time COULD end up like Subban if all works out well. They give up a good secondary scorer in Setoguchi who can be replaced by one of their forward prospects in the line up. The first is not too much because Subban would essentially put them over the top and into the playoffs, making it a late first at best, that is barring they wouldn't severly underacheive.

The Habs essentially start a new rebuild. They get another first in a deep draft, a young replacement for Subban in a couple of years, a very good top six winger and probably make their own pick a top 5 in the draft, allowing them to draft Jones, Drouin, MacKinnon, Barkov or whoever they want. I think they would be better off having a terrible season this year, being a shortened one at that as they would be better prepared for the future than if they were to keep him and overpay if they had to.

Just my $0.02 though.

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01-18-2013, 11:38 AM
  #109
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Originally Posted by J StClair28 View Post
I don't think Minnesota does it. They know, or at least should know that this isn't their year. I doubt they trade Dumba (although still 2-3 years away from making an impact), who could very well turn into Subban, AND a first. Not to mention Setoguchi, who they currently don't have a replacement for.
They make the two biggest signings and they still think they are not going to make the playoffs, I think this would be a good deal for MIN but as an EDM fan would hate it as it would really help MIN.

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01-18-2013, 12:28 PM
  #110
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They make the two biggest signings and they still think they are not going to make the playoffs, I think this would be a good deal for MIN but as an EDM fan would hate it as it would really help MIN.
That's not what they think. Minnesota is in the position where they expect to make the playoffs, with anything less being a failure of a season. And despite the fact that once you're in, anything can happen, they realistically understand that this probably isn't the year for them to win the cup.

Basically, it's stupid for them to have an all-or-nothing mentality, which is what this trade would be signifying.

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01-18-2013, 12:35 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by I3ig13ig View Post


P.K. Subban (on basis that a deal would be ready to sign with the Wild)





RW Devin Setoguchi
D Matt Dumba
1st Round Pick in 2013






This is just an outside fan thinking outside the box. The Wild need another top 4 dman and would get a top pairing one in Subban. The Habs get a quality top 6 forward, an excellent d prospect who could turn out like Subban and a 1st round selection in a very deep draft this season. I think this would definitely give Minny another huge boost towards going deep in the playoffs. This would help the Habs in the forward department while their talented defensive prospects such as Tinordi, Bealieau, Dumba, and Ellis can begin to step in to try and fill Subban's void.

I think this is a good basis for a deal, although I know the Habs would be reluctant to trade Subban. Probably some different tweaks and what not would help it out as well. What do you think?

In a vacuum, as a Wild fan I would do this trade in a heart beat if Montreal added a little(3rd round pick/B level bottom 6 type prospect) and was able to take another cap dump(cullen, or maybe Stoner). We can only hope Dumba becomes Subban who is still very young. Seto is fairly avg top 6, but probably doesn't have much of a long term future here. We can afford to give up a first. Trading for Subban would give us a bottom 6 of

Suter-Subban
Gilbert-Brodin
Scandella/Stoner/Falk-Spurge.

Thats a fantastic D core in two years.

Unfortunatly, we don't live in a Vacuum and it would be impossible to make the cap hits work long term. Need those ELCs and second contracts for the next 4-6 years until the cap gets high enough.

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01-18-2013, 12:39 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by HawkeyeCB View Post
I don't think this works. Clutterbuck and Setoguchi would both get into the Habs line-up, but it's not a big enough improvement. Clutterbuck would slot into the 4th line above Colby Armstrong, while Setoguchi is basically an Andrei Kostitsyn clone and will slot in on the 2nd line (where we have Galchenyuk right now). Phillips is a solid piece but this is a much worse proposal than the original. I think the original favors the Habs (MTL would have to add a small piece, maybe an Aaron Palushaj who could still be a top-9 forward), but in the deal you proposed it favours Minny and they would have to add a very solid piece. 1st Rounder, at least.
Just curious, who is on Montreals third line that Clutterbuck wouldn't make it? Seems to me he would be a third liner on most teams in the league. Just found that surprising.

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01-18-2013, 12:40 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by I3ig13ig View Post
Right now, Minnesota has great players playing and great prospects coming up. They would greatly benefit from adding another top 4 or top pairing defender and Subban would be perfect as he is young, still developing and constantly improving it seems.

The price is very reasonable. They are essentially giving up Dumba who in 2-4 years time COULD end up like Subban if all works out well. They give up a good secondary scorer in Setoguchi who can be replaced by one of their forward prospects in the line up. The first is not too much because Subban would essentially put them over the top and into the playoffs, making it a late first at best, that is barring they wouldn't severly underacheive.
You're right, they would benefit from acquiring Subban. Perhaps in 3-4 years, their top four of Suter, Brodin, Subban and Spurgeon would be among the best in the league, even.

However, Setoguchi CANNOT be replaced RIGHT NOW, and anyone who tells you otherwise is mistaken. With the second line already looking weak as it is,and injuries being a concern for Minnesota, that first round pick could very well end up being a 15-20 if they make the playoffs, or possibly even a 10-15 if injuries get too bad.

In the end, it's just too much for Minnesota to give up right now, in my opinion, when they aren't in win-now mode. Although the value of the original proposal is fantastic. Very well done.

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01-18-2013, 12:42 PM
  #114
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Just curious, who is on Montreals third line that Clutterbuck wouldn't make it? Seems to me he would be a third liner on most teams in the league. Just found that surprising.
Right now, MTL's third line is Travis Moen (who is similar to Clutterbuck), Lars Eller, and Rene Bourque.

Don't get me wrong, huge Clutterbuck fan, but don't see the fit.

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01-18-2013, 12:48 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by J StClair28 View Post
You're right, they would benefit from acquiring Subban. Perhaps in 3-4 years, their top four of Suter, Brodin, Subban and Spurgeon would be among the best in the league, even.

However, Setoguchi CANNOT be replaced RIGHT NOW, and anyone who tells you otherwise is mistaken. With the second line already looking weak as it is,and injuries being a concern for Minnesota, that first round pick could very well end up being a 15-20 if they make the playoffs, or possibly even a 10-15 if injuries get too bad.

In the end, it's just too much for Minnesota to give up right now, in my opinion, when they aren't in win-now mode. Although the value of the original proposal is fantastic. Very well done.
Can Seto be replaced fully? Not likely, but the exchange of value between Subban vs Prosser and Seto vs Zucker/Coyle is what matters when evaluating the deal. I think its likely the drop off to Zucker/Coyle would be more than compensated on the backend by banishing Prosser, replacing him with Subban and knocking everyone but Suter a peg down the depth chart. Which means for this season, it would likely be a net positive for the Wild.

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01-18-2013, 12:51 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by HawkeyeCB View Post
Right now, MTL's third line is Travis Moen (who is similar to Clutterbuck), Lars Eller, and Rene Bourque.

Don't get me wrong, huge Clutterbuck fan, but don't see the fit.
If it was me, i'd knock Moen down to the fourth as Clutterbuck has a bit more secondary scoring. But to each their own I guess.

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01-18-2013, 12:56 PM
  #117
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If it was me, i'd knock Moen down to the fourth as Clutterbuck has a bit more secondary scoring. But to each their own I guess.
Moen was on probably one of the greatest checking 3rd lines ever in Anaheim and 16 points in 48 games last year with 9 goals.

Clutterbuck had 27 points in 74 games so basically on par with what Moen was doing.

It's basically redundant like a poster above stated and would not really make sense basing a trade around.

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01-18-2013, 01:00 PM
  #118
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If it was me, i'd knock Moen down to the fourth as Clutterbuck has a bit more secondary scoring. But to each their own I guess.
I don't think the 2-point difference last season is going to make much of a difference. Plus, Eller & Moen have a lot of chemistry together. Even when they aren't scoring, they are dominating with the cycle and therefore keeping the opposition out of our zone.

Clutterbuck might be a wee bit better than Moen, but not enough to justify working a trade around PK Subban for that.

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01-18-2013, 01:09 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by ThatGuy22 View Post
Can Seto be replaced fully? Not likely, but the exchange of value between Subban vs Prosser and Seto vs Zucker/Coyle is what matters when evaluating the deal. I think its likely the drop off to Zucker/Coyle would be more than compensated on the backend by banishing Prosser, replacing him with Subban and knocking everyone but Suter a peg down the depth chart. Which means for this season, it would likely be a net positive for the Wild.
Then you have to ask yourself, "are Zucker and Coyle ready to step into a top six NHL role right now?" The answer is: Zucker, maybe, but Coyle, absolutely not. Now that that's answered, ask yourself if it's a smart idea to put two rookies on one line and expect them to be your second go-to line.

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01-18-2013, 01:09 PM
  #120
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Originally Posted by HawkeyeCB View Post
I don't think the 2-point difference last season is going to make much of a difference. Plus, Eller & Moen have a lot of chemistry together. Even when they aren't scoring, they are dominating with the cycle and therefore keeping the opposition out of our zone.

Clutterbuck might be a wee bit better than Moen, but not enough to justify working a trade around PK Subban for that.
Not just comparing last year, Clutterbucks career low is 18 as a rookie, Moen's career high is 21(his point pace last year not withstanding). Clutterbuck scored 34 two years ago, and 27 last year.

I wasn't comparing for a trade, as I think we would have to add far to much to work it around clutterbuck to make it work for the Habs. Just found it interesting and a conversation piece about Clutterbuck on the fourth line.

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01-18-2013, 01:18 PM
  #121
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Originally Posted by J StClair28 View Post
Then you have to ask yourself, "are Zucker and Coyle ready to step into a top six NHL role right now?" The answer is: Zucker, maybe, but Coyle, absolutely not. Now that that's answered, ask yourself if it's a smart idea to put two rookies on one line and expect them to be your second go-to line.
In this hypothetical world where I am GM and Coach, I wouldn't put two rookies on the same line.

Parise-Koivu-Zucker
PMB/Cullen-Granlund-Heatley

Zucker's speed and shot could raise havoc on that line were people are keying on Parise and Koivu. And Heatley has the perfect shot to go with Granlund's passing ability.

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01-18-2013, 02:08 PM
  #122
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That 1st would be pretty low, no? Your prospect pool is kind of stacked anyway.
We'll be bringing a few guys up soon. We'd like to keep a stacked prospect group.

Deal might sound fair for Montreal but not Minnesota as they give up way too much.

BTW would you say Subban is as good as Burns?

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01-18-2013, 02:59 PM
  #123
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We'll be bringing a few guys up soon. We'd like to keep a stacked prospect group.

Deal might sound fair for Montreal but not Minnesota as they give up way too much.

BTW would you say Subban is as good as Burns?
Not yet imo but I think he has about the same value. And potential to be better than Burns, Subban has better hockey sense imo.

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01-18-2013, 03:25 PM
  #124
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Not yet imo but I think he has about the same value. And potential to be better than Burns, Subban has better hockey sense imo.
Isn't that like saying a Rabbit is better than a mouse at math?


bazinga...

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01-18-2013, 03:53 PM
  #125
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Isn't that like saying a Rabbit is better than a mouse at math?
I thought it was common knowledge that they are?

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