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Sam Gagner vs Kyle Turris

View Poll Results: Who will have a better season?
Sam Gagner 239 48.19%
Kyle Turris 257 51.81%
Voters: 496. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
01-18-2013, 06:45 PM
  #101
Rumcajs
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I think Gagner right now for sure but overall i think Turris will break out with Ottawa in the next coming years.

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01-18-2013, 06:53 PM
  #102
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Can't wait to bring up this debate again in a few months.

Turris scores 40 points this season if healthy (68 point pace for full 82 game season). It's actually hilarious seeing so many people think Gagner is God's gift to mother Earth. Kyle Turris is probably the most under-rated player on the Sens roster and it'll show this season.

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01-18-2013, 06:55 PM
  #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSilfverBullet View Post
Kyle Turris is probably the most under-rated player on the Sens roster and it'll show this season.
Underrated at what? Being mature?

Gagner

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Old
01-18-2013, 06:56 PM
  #104
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Underrated at what? Being mature?

Gagner
Sorry that your team couldn't handle their talented youth. Thanks for the #2 C though.

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01-18-2013, 07:08 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by jbeck5 View Post
I get what you're saying and all...but in material and data management for businesses, they actually remove the outliers of their samples...Which is basically what he did.

You're both right. He's doing it to make his argument look better, however it isn't as random to remove outliers as you think. In several cases, it can provider a clearer picture.

Just letting you know as you may not have known this. Carry on.
Definitely, but in sports it's pretty ridiculous to negate a player's career game in an argument using statistics from one season. It's pretty easy to pick and choose which games they're going to include for each player to make their argument look better in a head-to-head comparison.

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01-18-2013, 07:12 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by TheSilfverBullet View Post
Can't wait to bring up this debate again in a few months.

Turris scores 40 points this season if healthy (68 point pace for full 82 game season). It's actually hilarious seeing so many people think Gagner is God's gift to mother Earth. Kyle Turris is probably the most under-rated player on the Sens roster and it'll show this season.
Yes, Oiler fans really do think that Gagner is God's gift to mother Earth, that's why he's in every single trade proposal on these boards that Oilers fans make... right?
I find it pretty funny that you think it's insane that some people believe Gagner is a good player, and then you go on to emphatically declare that Turris is going to score at a much higher pace than he has in the past. Gagner sucks, Turris > Crosby, we get it.

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01-18-2013, 07:48 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Yeah15 View Post
Yes, Oiler fans really do think that Gagner is God's gift to mother Earth, that's why he's in every single trade proposal on these boards that Oilers fans make... right?
I find it pretty funny that you think it's insane that some people believe Gagner is a good player, and then you go on to emphatically declare that Turris is going to score at a much higher pace than he has in the past. Gagner sucks, Turris > Crosby, we get it.
68 point pace means "better than Crosby" apparently.

The whole "Gagner AINEC" is where I get the assumption that Gagner must be a fawking all-star. Because it is close. I think the two are very close in production. I think Gagner will score around where Turris scores this year, but, Turris is a superior player in his own end.

I stand by my statement. If I'm putting money on anyone on the Sens roster becoming a very respectable scorer, it's Kyle Turris.

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01-18-2013, 08:13 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Yeah15 View Post
Definitely, but in sports it's pretty ridiculous to negate a player's career game in an argument using statistics from one season. It's pretty easy to pick and choose which games they're going to include for each player to make their argument look better in a head-to-head comparison.
Well removing one game, shouldn't be an issue...unless that game is an anomoly. In gagners case, it is. It's an extremely rare occurrence. To get a better idea of a sample, you take every sample within a range...and exclude the extremely rare anomaly's that stand out as not in the norm.

Knowing the above, it almost makes sense to leave out the phoenix games...as it has no effect on his play since arriving to ottawa.

It's just simple math practices to find out what usually happens. Outliers pull the average one way or another...which is not giving you proper data to evaluate. It's swaying it.

I'll give you the simplest example i can.

You have someone taking 10 exams...on 9 exams, he gets 10% on each...but on one he gets everything right plus bonuses and gets 125%.

His average would be 21.5%...but it would be smarter for you to assume his next test will be 10%...therefore you take out the outlier to make a better measurement for the future. It's actually a very common practice.

Taking away 1 players 8 point game to get a better idea of how that player regularly produces.

I also understand your side of the story that you can always hand pick things to include or exclude to make your point look better.

I think the right way to go about it would be to bring up both sets of data...one with outliers included...and one with outliers not included...and people can draw their own conclusions...don't trash either set of data, because both sets data are useful.

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Old
01-18-2013, 08:14 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by TheSilfverBullet View Post
Sorry that your team couldn't handle their talented youth. Thanks for the #2 C though.
75 points in three seasons.

The talent is too much to handle.

inb4 Selke predictions.

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01-18-2013, 08:17 PM
  #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSilfverBullet View Post
Can't wait to bring up this debate again in a few months.

Turris scores 40 points this season if healthy (68 point pace for full 82 game season). It's actually hilarious seeing so many people think Gagner is God's gift to mother Earth. Kyle Turris is probably the most under-rated player on the Sens roster and it'll show this season.
It's because Gagner has out produced him at every level. Once Turris shows that he can outscore Gagner the poll will look different.

People need to give him props for his offense last year considering how many games he played, but whenever Oilers fans call Gagner a 50 point player for putting up 47 points in 68 games or 49 in 78 they get told it doesn't count until he does it. The same thing could be applied to Turris.

It's also kinda funny that he was supposed to be an offensive player but then as soon as he joined Ottawa suddenly he's this terrific two way player being compared to Zajac and O'Rielly.

He's a bit of an enigma, and some people probably don't think too highly of him because of his little hold out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSilfverBullet View Post
Sorry that your team couldn't handle their talented youth. Thanks for the #2 C though.
Couldn't someone just easily turn it around and say Turris doesn't have any heart or is spoiled because of the hold out? Is his lack of development really phoenix' fault? They've developed OEL pretty well...

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Old
01-18-2013, 08:25 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by NyQuil View Post
Just because Sammy Gagne gets 6 points in a single game means we're all supposed to be impressed?

Please!
8 points smart guy.

And even if you don't count it, Gagner. He's done more so far, is in a very good spot on the Oilers, and has shown he can be good for more than 50 games in his career.

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01-18-2013, 08:27 PM
  #112
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As per the point "pace", I'll respond the same way that the dozens of Gagner bashers respond when someone mentions his point pace...pace doesn't matter, its points on the board that matter, actually putting up the points is very different than being on "pace" to do it.

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01-18-2013, 08:44 PM
  #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSilfverBullet View Post
Can't wait to bring up this debate again in a few months.

Turris scores 40 points this season if healthy (68 point pace for full 82 game season). It's actually hilarious seeing so many people think Gagner is God's gift to mother Earth. Kyle Turris is probably the most under-rated player on the Sens roster and it'll show this season.
Yeah if HF can agree on one thing, it's that they all love Gagner.

You guys couldn't be more obnoxious in this thread, if everyone doesn't agree that a Sens player is better than anyone else, we have to hear about it and read snarky posts for the next 10 pages.

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Old
01-18-2013, 08:55 PM
  #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSilfverBullet View Post
Can't wait to bring up this debate again in a few months.

Turris scores 40 points this season if healthy (68 point pace for full 82 game season). It's actually hilarious seeing so many people think Gagner is God's gift to mother Earth. Kyle Turris is probably the most under-rated player on the Sens roster and it'll show this season.
No disrespect, but God himself couldn't score 8 points in a single game.

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01-18-2013, 09:14 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by TheSilfverBullet View Post
68 point pace means "better than Crosby" apparently.

The whole "Gagner AINEC" is where I get the assumption that Gagner must be a fawking all-star. Because it is close. I think the two are very close in production. I think Gagner will score around where Turris scores this year, but, Turris is a superior player in his own end.

I stand by my statement. If I'm putting money on anyone on the Sens roster becoming a very respectable scorer, it's Kyle Turris.
I agree, I think Gagner and Turris will score around the same this year. But I highly, highly doubt that those point totals will be anywhere near 40 points.

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01-18-2013, 09:15 PM
  #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSilfverBullet View Post
Can't wait to bring up this debate again in a few months.

Turris scores 40 points this season if healthy (68 point pace for full 82 game season). It's actually hilarious seeing so many people think Gagner is God's gift to mother Earth. Kyle Turris is probably the most under-rated player on the Sens roster and it'll show this season.
"TheSilvferBullet", Alfredsson avatar and from Ontario? Gee I wonder who you'll think is better, put away your homer glasses son, youre embarrassing yourself.

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01-18-2013, 09:55 PM
  #117
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Turris has more playoff points. Gagner doesn't even have 1 one. Its all about points and not games played.

Turris > Gagner

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Old
01-18-2013, 09:57 PM
  #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Puritania View Post
Yeah if HF can agree on one thing, it's that they all love Gagner.

You guys couldn't be more obnoxious in this thread, if everyone doesn't agree that a Sens player is better than anyone else, we have to hear about it and read snarky posts for the next 10 pages.
Id say the majority of sens fans are saying its either even or really close. The only people saying "not close" are Edmonton fans.

Also that kinda came off as obnoxious...

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01-19-2013, 12:41 AM
  #119
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Id say the majority of sens fans are saying its either even or really close. The only people saying "not close" are Edmonton fans.

Also that kinda came off as obnoxious...
Actually almost all the neutral fans are saying it's not close in favor of Gagner.

I can't imagine my criticism gave you a warm feeling in your chest. It happens in every poll involving the Sens. If your guy doesn't get overwhelming support its mean spirited posts and insults. Rinse repeat.

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01-19-2013, 12:57 AM
  #120
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Originally Posted by Pekka Rinne View Post
"TheSilvferBullet", Alfredsson avatar and from Ontario? Gee I wonder who you'll think is better, put away your homer glasses son, youre embarrassing yourself.
Clearly no one else but Senators fans watched Kyle Turris play last season. Clearly if you're a fan of a specific team then you obviously don't know a thing about the players on your team. Clearly Edmonton fans speak without bias all the time, and especially in this thread.


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01-19-2013, 12:58 AM
  #121
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Originally Posted by Puritania View Post
Actually almost all the neutral fans are saying it's not close in favor of Gagner.

I can't imagine my criticism gave you a warm feeling in your chest. It happens in every poll involving the Sens. If your guy doesn't get overwhelming support its mean spirited posts and insults. Rinse repeat.
Im sorry that makes you feel so bitter.

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01-19-2013, 01:17 AM
  #122
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Originally Posted by jbeck5 View Post
Well removing one game, shouldn't be an issue...unless that game is an anomoly. In gagners case, it is. It's an extremely rare occurrence. To get a better idea of a sample, you take every sample within a range...and exclude the extremely rare anomaly's that stand out as not in the norm.

Knowing the above, it almost makes sense to leave out the phoenix games...as it has no effect on his play since arriving to ottawa.

It's just simple math practices to find out what usually happens. Outliers pull the average one way or another...which is not giving you proper data to evaluate. It's swaying it.

I'll give you the simplest example i can.

You have someone taking 10 exams...on 9 exams, he gets 10% on each...but on one he gets everything right plus bonuses and gets 125%.

His average would be 21.5%...but it would be smarter for you to assume his next test will be 10%...therefore you take out the outlier to make a better measurement for the future. It's actually a very common practice.

Taking away 1 players 8 point game to get a better idea of how that player regularly produces.

I also understand your side of the story that you can always hand pick things to include or exclude to make your point look better.

I think the right way to go about it would be to bring up both sets of data...one with outliers included...and one with outliers not included...and people can draw their own conclusions...don't trash either set of data, because both sets data are useful.
No it's unfair. You take the larger sample size. It's pretty clear that Gagner's production has been consistent season to season, you don't just make up random conditions on how good a game (or 1/75th of the sample size) can be. At the end of the day one outlier in a large season is called statisical variance and when we look at his season to season scoring totals it seems that the variance is allowable as it does not create an outlier over the much much much larger sample size. If they are comparing seasons relevant outliers are not based on an insignificant portion of the sample size but best based on whole sample sizes, or to say full seasons. Sam Gagner's season was not an outlier so why should he be punished for a case of statisitical variation that still regressed to a mean over the whole? The variation is extreme enough to be considered an outlier in terms of game to game performance but it still was part of a larger sample size that was not an outlier, the larger sample size is the one being compared.

Also did you consider perhaps there was a stretch of games that was an outlier for the worse? Like in his first 13 games coming back from injury he only scored 2 points in limited ice time. Is that not an outlier by your definition? Or is it not an outlier because he's had other scoring slumps? But if we say that then you agree that the larger sample size is more relevant, as you'd have to compare data over a larger sample size to know that scoring slumps are standard. Comparing data over a larger sample size gives more accurate results as it allows for statistical variation. It's not fair to discount it as it fits your argument, and if you do it should go both ways.

Also this creates an example of the sorties paradox of where do you draw the line. When is one game's production so good that it's an outlier so extreme it ought to be dismissed? What is the highest example of production that isn't an outlier? How did you decide on that number? Is it by unbiased methods, or therefore fair?

But really this is nonsense, Sam Gagner scored 8 points and it was a tremendous accomplishment. It's not a negative thing nor is it something he's uncapable of, so why would you punish him for it? It makes no sense. He did it, give credit where credit is due.

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Old
01-19-2013, 01:44 AM
  #123
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Originally Posted by dss97 View Post
On February 2 2012, Gagner scored 4 goal and 4 assists for 8 points. On the same day, Turris scored 0 points.

Gagner AINEC.
It's funny because Gagner had twice as many points in that one game than Turris did in all of February. Weird.

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01-19-2013, 02:39 AM
  #124
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I love this. Every Oilers fan (we remember you from the past discussions, and EK threads, or at least I do) is all "Gagner so much better AINEC, lol Turris sucks offensively and defensively". Sens fans are "It's pretty close, Gagner is more proven and good offensively, Turris is better defensively and will probably be better in the future since he has improved and Gagner stays the same"

Someone on the first page (I think) said "Gagner is so bad defensively he was leading his team in +/-" Which is hilarious seeing how Gagner was a +5, while Turris was +12. (Even though +/- doesn't equal defensive skill).

Both of them are young 50 point second line centers. One of them is more proven, one of them is more raw (as seen by Gagner's seemingly stagnant point production and Turris' improvement).

Also for random fact. Turris is better at winning games than Gagner, and that's what matters. Turris has made the playoffs, and scored in them, proving he can win games. Gagner has yet to make the playoffs, proving he cannot make his team win games. FACT.

Personally I wouldn't trade Turris for Gagner, nor would I expect Edmonton to want to trade Gagner for Turris. They are pretty comparable.

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Old
01-19-2013, 02:41 AM
  #125
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Im sorry that makes you feel so bitter.
I'm not bitter, I'm disappointed that people can't conduct themselves in a better manner.

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