HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Montreal Canadiens
Notices

P.K. Subban Thread - Mk III - Unsigned Edition

View Poll Results: Who should break first
Bergevin 61 25.00%
Subban 183 75.00%
Voters: 244. You may not vote on this poll

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
01-18-2013, 07:54 PM
  #551
Gunners CH
Registered User
 
Gunners CH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Edmonton, AB
Country: Canada
Posts: 248
vCash: 500
I don't want to speculate on rumours and offers and opinions and all that, so I'll just focus on what I know.

Here's what I know:

I know PK Subban had a ton of ice time on a team which finished dead last in the east.

I know PK Subban has put up 38 and 36 point seasons, with 33 of those total points coming on the powerplay. He also has 1 season with a positive plus minus.

I know I want him signed, what I don't know is if the above stats qualify him to bypass his bridge contract and thus qualify him as an elite player right now.

edit: thanks to bauer who correctly pointed out my error in PK's powerplay point totals.


Last edited by Gunners CH: 01-19-2013 at 12:07 AM.
Gunners CH is offline  
Old
01-18-2013, 07:55 PM
  #552
Lafleurs Guy
Registered User
 
Lafleurs Guy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 20,327
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by OneSharpMarble View Post
Wow either the Subban hype machine is getting out of control or someone doesn't remember Markov in his prime.

Markovs cerebral game made him one of the best in the league and he could elevate the entire teams play. Subban is nice and all but Markov in his prime is in another stratosphere.
Markov was a great offensive defenseman and wonderful power play specialist. He won us a lot of games because we were so offensively starved that without him we'd lose a ton of 2-1, 1-0 games.

I think Subban will be as good offensively and miles ahead defensively. He's also a much better skater. I think PK Subban is going to be the best defenseman we've had since Chelios.

We'll see but my money is on PK.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt19 View Post
I don't want to speculate on rumours and offers and opinions and all that, so I'll just focus on what I know.

Here's what I know:

I know PK Subban had a ton of ice time on a team which finished dead last in the east.

I know PK Subban has put up 38 and 36 point seasons, and with a whopping 14 career powerplay points. He also has 1 season with a positive plus minus.

I know I want him signed, what I don't know is if the above stats qualify him to bypass his bridge contract and thus qualify him as an elite player right now.
He's a legit first line pairing defenseman now. Elite? Maybe not yet but he will be and it wouldn't surprise me if he arrives this season.

Lafleurs Guy is offline  
Old
01-18-2013, 07:56 PM
  #553
Ari91
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,446
vCash: 500
I'm assuming that Subban hasn't been taking part in training camp since he has no contract so is it safe to say that he definitely won't be in tomorrow's game even if a deal is made by midnight or tomorrow morning?

Ari91 is offline  
Old
01-18-2013, 08:00 PM
  #554
Et le But
Moderator
 
Et le But's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: New York
Country: Argentina
Posts: 17,619
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Well, that's where I completely disagree with you.
PK isn't just some guy. He is not some guy like Eller is.
PK made the All-Star rookie team. He was our #1 Dman for 3/4 of the past 2years. He is our most promising young player and arguably our best player. He's also one of the most promising young Dman in the NHL.
So, say PK gets a long deal, not every kid coming out of the ELC can just look at PK's contract during negotiations and say they deserve that. No. They will need to have accomplished and performed very well to even be mentioning PK's contract.

So no, not any other guy will just be able to come in and ask the same.

PK would be treated as an exception, not the norm.
Probably the best post of this thread.

I don't understand this "prove himself" thing. Subban has already proven more than Pacioretty.

Et le But is offline  
Old
01-18-2013, 08:00 PM
  #555
Marc the Habs Fan
Moderator
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Longueuil
Country: Canada
Posts: 50,031
vCash: 597
Quote:
Originally Posted by HockeyCrazed101 View Post
I'm assuming that Subban hasn't been taking part in training camp since he has no contract so is it safe to say that he definitely won't be in tomorrow's game even if a deal is made by midnight or tomorrow morning?
Yes.

Marc the Habs Fan is online now  
Old
01-18-2013, 08:00 PM
  #556
E = CH²
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Country: Sri Lanka
Posts: 15,594
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Markov was a great offensive defenseman and wonderful power play specialist. He won us a lot of games because we were so offensively starved that without him we'd lose a ton of 2-1, 1-0 games.

I think Subban will be as good offensively and miles ahead defensively. He's also a much better skater. I think PK Subban is going to be the best defenseman we've had since Chelios.

We'll see but my money is on PK.

He's a legit first line pairing defenseman now. Elite? Maybe not yet but he will be and it wouldn't surprise me if he arrives this season.
You're underrating Markov defensively. He was pretty awesome defensively as well. The thing is that we were always in the other team's zone when Markov was on the ice so you didn't quite notice it, but his stick was insane. He'd steal pucks along the boards a la Datsyuk and break up 2 on 1s like it was a 1 on 1 then send us back on the offensive with his amazing vision. Markov was truly incredible in his prime. Better than what Subban has done so far. At one point, Markov was truly Lidstrom-lite.

E = CH² is online now  
Old
01-18-2013, 08:01 PM
  #557
Lafleurs Guy
Registered User
 
Lafleurs Guy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 20,327
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Sure we can stop, but you got my point as well right?? Since the last lockout, the tendency has been more years=lower cap hit, so less years=higher cap hit. That was the general unwritten rule going around in negotiations when looking at the contracts being signed.
So, you want PK for 2 years? Don't expect him to sign at about 500K-1M more than Prust.
It's not like PK will just give you 2 years of him (where he could very well get injured and lower his value) at a cheap price just because the team was poorly managed.
I mean, Gorges and Price knew there was a very good chance cap was going to drop, and they apparently love this team just as much as PK, so why didn't they sign at a cheaper price? Neither of them really deserve their contracts. Easily arguable they are somewhat overpaid.
And are we going to ask the same thing of DD next year if he breaks the 70pt mark?

I don't think PK feels he's all that. That's a picture painted by fans/media. I think he recognizes what he has brought and brings to this team.

What baffles me the most however is this:
You have a star, actually willing to hold out in order to commit more years to this Habs team. He's not requesting a trade. He's not talking smack. He is one of the most promising rising stars on Defense in the NHL.
Let me repeat that one more time, this star is holding out because he wants to play here for a longer time.

Meanwhile, it's been a recurring complaint from fans that NO stars want to play here. That the only players (not even stars) that we could sign are passed their prime, older and we had to overpay for every single one of them.

Now we have one, but fans aren't for it. Bipolar fans I tell you. And before saying PK is asking to be overpaid, let's wait to hear what the numbers actually are because we've heard so many conflicting reports.
You have to read between the lines here though. The reason he wants the five year deal is because when it's over he's an FA. The Habs want two years so he's still RFA at the end of it.

I can certainly understand where Montreal is coming from on this.

Lafleurs Guy is offline  
Old
01-18-2013, 08:01 PM
  #558
habtastic
Registered User
 
habtastic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Mumbai via MTL
Country: India
Posts: 9,209
vCash: 500
[QUOTE]
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolasprICE View Post
We all seem to be on the same page as to his skill level (minus a few weird exceptions).

But can anyone in here characterize PK as lazy, who doesn't give his 110% and isn't willing to do what it takes to win a battle?

Or that PK isn't able to compete in big games, or disappears when the games and moments count?

That he lacks the heart and determination?
Nope, not at all. He gives it his all and I never consider him lazy. Stupid penalties sometimes, but it's a result of him battling. BTW, Tomas Plekanec gives it his all, so did DD, Cole and Patches. Gionta possibly the most when he's not injured and if on the ice even IF injured. So did Gorges. So did Emelin (can't remember him being lazy or disappearing) and it's not like Diaz didn't battle. PK absolutely gives it his all, but other's do it quietly as well. I think you're emphasizing that he's a big game player, and that's true, no doubt, but I feel like the fact that he IS so out there makes it seem as if he made the All-Star team. (He did not. Rookie all-stars ain't the real deal for the kind of money we're talking.)


Quote:
I didn't think so. The argument can be made that PK at $6 million is an overpayment. That's one risk I'm willing to jump a million times over if i had to.

How many PK Subban like D-men have we had in the last 25 years? Do I need to go into the details as to what makes him unique?

You know, I respect a lot of what many of you have to say, but it's time we give our heads a shake.

Just because PK walks to walk to his own beat (which is extremely refreshing and exactly what this league and fans / city needs) but i STRONGLY believe that he has what we see in true champions.
It's an overpayment that could end up costing us for an equally important player if we're talking about a long-term deal. What happens IF (it's not impossible) Galchenyuk becomes an NHLer this year or next and absolutely lights up the league. Is PK still god? We haven't had a D man like PK in years (aside from one Andrei Markov in terms of f'in talent -- All-Star BTW), but I remember PK being drafter, and then the road to him making the team. (Which if you'll remember, his debut was due to a certain someone's injury). It wasn't like we projected him to be this great. We had high hopes for him, and he's perhaps surpassed them in terms of timing, but I assure you that if our D wasn't so weak/in transition, he wouldn't stand out as much to warrant the 6 mill after 2 years. Walking to his own beat means demanding an objectively inflated contract? Not refreshing. I understand his vantage point, I just wish he'd settle for what's fair. (You said yourself that he's asking for a bit of an overpayment.) I love PK, I just don't want to deify him just yet. This is the Montreal Canadiens, he ain't no god yet.



Quote:
I love how most of you go drooly all over Josh Gorges. I don't see Subban as having any less character than him... the only real difference between those two guys, is that PK has skill that Gorges can only dream of. Yet, giving PK a long term contract for a few million more than Gorges, is somehow considered outrageous.
I don't think anyone is questioning his character (although they are very different players/people) apart from him being many times too eager, too impatient (not that Doughty isn't like that, IMO), things that he has recognized and is a work in progress/sometimes you need that, just tempered slightly. You are really undervaluing Gorges' defensive awareness. It is far superior to PKs ATM. As for contacts, if there's one guy who has deserved his contract -- it's Josh Gorges!!! And he recognized what he had to do to get it.


I get that you think people aren't seeing the amazing glittering diamond lying before us, but he needs a little more...polish, a little more solidarity to the team (taking what you deserve, not what you can squeeze out cuz you happen to be in this situation at a time when you're "lucky" that your D cohorts aren't as strong as other teams'). If it's a long term deal, that could be 5 million or more spent on PK that could go elsewhere and in hindsight we might want to have been more cautious. Good that MB has the mindset of being here for awhile. In Chicago, he has been exposed to world class talent and what happens with contracts.

habtastic is offline  
Old
01-18-2013, 08:02 PM
  #559
Lafleurs Guy
Registered User
 
Lafleurs Guy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 20,327
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
You're underrating Markov defensively. He was pretty awesome defensively as well. The thing is that we were always in the other team's zone when Markov was on the ice so you didn't quite notice it, but his stick was insane. He'd steal pucks along the boards a la Datsyuk and break up 2 on 1s like it was a 1 on 1 then send us back on the offensive with his amazing vision. Markov was truly incredible in his prime. Better than what Subban has done so far. At one point, Markov was truly Lidstrom-lite.
Markov has always been overrated by Montreal fans. I'm just going to leave it at that and let others continue the debate.

Lafleurs Guy is offline  
Old
01-18-2013, 08:02 PM
  #560
overlords
Global Moderator
Jack Arse
 
overlords's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Trolling Brian Wilde
Posts: 26,112
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
Probably the best post of this thread.

I don't understand this "prove himself" thing. Subban has already proven more than Pacioretty.
But max scored more points. I don't understand.

__________________



"overlords is one of my favorite people on this entire site." - Hfboards
overlords is online now  
Old
01-18-2013, 08:02 PM
  #561
Kriss E
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 22,705
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Markov was a great offensive defenseman and wonderful power play specialist. He won us a lot of games because we were so offensively starved that without him we'd lose a ton of 2-1, 1-0 games.

I think Subban will be as good offensively and miles ahead defensively. He's also a much better skater. I think PK Subban is going to be the best defenseman we've had since Chelios.

We'll see but my money is on PK.

He's a legit first line pairing defenseman now. Elite? Maybe not yet but he will be and it wouldn't surprise me if he arrives this season.
Agreed. Also, and E=CH has already brought up, we know PK can perform in the POs.
Not to mention, he seems to truly enjoy the big, intense, rivalry type of games. He even admitted during post game interviews versus the Bruins. He loves those games. Kid lives for intensity.

I would bet on PK as well, and that's not a knock on Markov. He was my favorite Dman during his prime.

Kriss E is offline  
Old
01-18-2013, 08:07 PM
  #562
Jeffrey
Registered User
 
Jeffrey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,541
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to Jeffrey
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Markov has always been overrated by Montreal fans. I'm just going to leave it at that and let others continue the debate.
It sure look like subban is no slouch in that department either !

Jeffrey is online now  
Old
01-18-2013, 08:09 PM
  #563
OneSharpMarble
Registered User
 
OneSharpMarble's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Calgary
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,201
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt19 View Post
I don't want to speculate on rumours and offers and opinions and all that, so I'll just focus on what I know.

Here's what I know:

I know PK Subban had a ton of ice time on a team which finished dead last in the east.

I know PK Subban has put up 38 and 36 point seasons, and with a whopping 14 career powerplay points. He also has 1 season with a positive plus minus.

I know I want him signed, what I don't know is if the above stats qualify him to bypass his bridge contract and thus qualify him as an elite player right now.
Bergevin obviously doesn't think it does.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Markov has always been overrated by Montreal fans. I'm just going to leave it at that and let others continue the debate.
In Markovs prime he was top 5 in the league and that was coming from a lot of non-habs fans. Subban would be lucky to crack the top 15 right now and that is from a hab fan. The over-rating here is clearly in one players favour.

OneSharpMarble is offline  
Old
01-18-2013, 08:10 PM
  #564
Et le But
Moderator
 
Et le But's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: New York
Country: Argentina
Posts: 17,619
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Markov has always been overrated by Montreal fans. I'm just going to leave it at that and let others continue the debate.
Markov was in his prime above average defensively. If Habs fans overrate him it's because his defense was somewhat underrated league-wide as he was perceived as a power play specialist.

But Subban last year was probably on the same level defensively...if anything you are starting to underrate prime Markov by claiming Subban was "miles ahead"...Prime Markov was still a better decision maker, but Subban already is better at a lot of things on that end.

On the other hand Subban isn't in the same league as Markov offensively, but of course Subban is far ahead of Markov overall if you compare them at the same age. I agree about the best defenseman since Chelios thing, Subban is already projecting ahead of every Habs defenseman since Desjardins, arguably Chelios.

Et le But is offline  
Old
01-18-2013, 08:11 PM
  #565
Kriss E
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 22,705
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
You have to read between the lines here though. The reason he wants the five year deal is because when it's over he's an FA. The Habs want two years so he's still RFA at the end of it.

I can certainly understand where Montreal is coming from on this.
Well, like I mentioned, there's been conflicting reports. I've heard 2years, 4years, 5years, 8years.

The one factual comment we got from someone actually involved in there came from the mouth of Perno, assistant of Meehan. He said (as of January 8th), that a 3-4 year deal seems to be very possible.

http://www.journaldemontreal.com/201...-de-quatre-ans

Since then, I've heard all kinds of stuff but none of it was official as the words of Perno.

And from what Bobby Mac tweeted on Bergevin being strong on the 2year deal, I'm starting to believe this negotiation is a lot more about Bergevin being stubborn as a rookie GM that wants to establish a rep, more than an actual logical negotiation. I can be wrong, but it's the impression I'm getting.

Kriss E is offline  
Old
01-18-2013, 08:12 PM
  #566
E = CH²
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Country: Sri Lanka
Posts: 15,594
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by OneSharpMarble View Post
In Markovs prime he was top 5 in the league and that was coming from a lot of non-habs fans. Subban would be lucky to crack the top 15 right now and that is from a hab fan. The over-rating here is clearly in one players favour.
I agree with this assessment.

E = CH² is online now  
Old
01-18-2013, 08:12 PM
  #567
Kriss E
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 22,705
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
Probably the best post of this thread.

I don't understand this "prove himself" thing. Subban has already proven more than Pacioretty.
It's because fans in general have a very tough time rating Dman. They look at basic stats line, like points, and make general flawed conclusion.
38pts? Pffft...That certainly doesn't warrant a long deal! He needs to prove himself. We even heard stuff like he needed to win the Norris first.

Many fans here are reaching badly, it's seriously pathetic.

Kriss E is offline  
Old
01-18-2013, 08:20 PM
  #568
Kriss E
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 22,705
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by OneSharpMarble View Post
In Markovs prime he was top 5 in the league and that was coming from a lot of non-habs fans. Subban would be lucky to crack the top 15 right now and that is from a hab fan. The over-rating here is clearly in one players favour.
So what you're saying is that 2 years into the league PK could possibly (luckily according to you) break the top 15 Dman. So, he could maybe make the top 20. But definitely top 30. That is 2 years into the league, playing on a team that was absolutely horrendous with developing youngsters. He played on a mediocre team gone bad the next year, where he handled the toughest match ups. Despite this, he didn't look out of place. I mean, imagine we would have made Diaz, Emelin or Weber handle those minutes. So he makes it out where he can easily be considered in the top 30 in the NHL.

But yea, that's not enough to warrant more than a crap bridge contract. He needs that small 2 year deal because Price went through it when he was struggling and lost his #1 spot. Sure, that makes sense.

Kriss E is offline  
Old
01-18-2013, 08:23 PM
  #569
ECWHSWI
P.K. is perfect.
 
ECWHSWI's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 14,942
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
What baffles me the most however is this:
You have a star, actually willing to hold out in order to commit more years to this Habs team. He's not requesting a trade. He's not talking smack. He is one of the most promising rising stars on Defense in the NHL.
Let me repeat that one more time, this star is holding out because he wants to play here for a longer time.

Meanwhile, it's been a recurring complaint from fans that NO stars want to play here. That the only players (not even stars) that we could sign are passed their prime, older and we had to overpay for every single one of them.

Now we have one, but fans aren't for it. Bipolar fans I tell you. And before saying PK is asking to be overpaid, let's wait to hear what the numbers actually are because we've heard so many conflicting reports.
I'd love to know where you got this ??

Let me ask you one more time, where did you get such inside info ??

ECWHSWI is offline  
Old
01-18-2013, 08:24 PM
  #570
Habtchum*
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 2,726
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
It's because fans in general have a very tough time rating Dman. They look at basic stats line, like points, and make general flawed conclusion.
38pts? Pffft...That certainly doesn't warrant a long deal! He needs to prove himself. We even heard stuff like he needed to win the Norris first.

Many fans here are reaching badly, it's seriously pathetic.
So Bergevin and his whole staff know nothing about hockey players ?

Habtchum* is offline  
Old
01-18-2013, 08:24 PM
  #571
Moneyman2k6
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 38
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
It's because fans in general have a very tough time rating Dman. They look at basic stats line, like points, and make general flawed conclusion.
38pts? Pffft...That certainly doesn't warrant a long deal! He needs to prove himself. We even heard stuff like he needed to win the Norris first.

Many fans here are reaching badly, it's seriously pathetic.
i agree lol
Me i hate the comparison with price and paciorrety
What price had prove? never get nominated for vezina or any major trophy ... what paciorretty has proven? Only one 30 goals year out of 4. Its nothing he could be a guy like Jonathan cheechoo with only one good year or etc...

PK did well in his 3 years lol and its not enough for fans Ron fournier and the organization hahaha

Moneyman2k6 is offline  
Old
01-18-2013, 08:24 PM
  #572
E = CH²
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Country: Sri Lanka
Posts: 15,594
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Habtchum View Post
So Bergevin and his whole staff know nothing about hockey players ?
So Bergevin and his whole staff know everything and are always right?

E = CH² is online now  
Old
01-18-2013, 08:25 PM
  #573
ECWHSWI
P.K. is perfect.
 
ECWHSWI's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 14,942
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
So what you're saying is that 2 years into the league PK could possibly (luckily according to you) break the top 15 Dman. So, he could maybe make the top 20. But definitely top 30. That is 2 years into the league, playing on a team that was absolutely horrendous with developing youngsters. He played on a mediocre team gone bad the next year, where he handled the toughest match ups. Despite this, he didn't look out of place. I mean, imagine we would have made Diaz, Emelin or Weber handle those minutes. So he makes it out where he can easily be considered in the top 30 in the NHL.

But yea, that's not enough to warrant more than a crap bridge contract. He needs that small 2 year deal because Price went through it when he was struggling and lost his #1 spot. Sure, that makes sense.
not even top 20

ECWHSWI is offline  
Old
01-18-2013, 08:27 PM
  #574
Habtchum*
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 2,726
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
So Bergevin and his whole staff know everything and are always right?
They certainly know more than armchairs gm like you and me.

Habtchum* is offline  
Old
01-18-2013, 08:27 PM
  #575
Nakamura
私はクソの葉を憎む
 
Nakamura's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Country: Japan
Posts: 1,098
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
It's because fans in general have a very tough time rating Dman. They look at basic stats line, like points, and make general flawed conclusion.
38pts? Pffft...That certainly doesn't warrant a long deal! He needs to prove himself. We even heard stuff like he needed to win the Norris first.

Many fans here are reaching badly, it's seriously pathetic.
I know you really love yourself but I have to let you know that you don't have all the answers to everything. Like I said in a previous response (that you ignored) to one of your thousands of posts, this poll is only one indication of the general opinion. The best indication was TSN's panel (McKenzie, Ward, Ferraro) who were unanimous about PK signing the bridge-contract. They must know a thing or two about the game of hockey in the NHL...

You have the right to your personal opinion but you don't need to disrespect 75% of the users in this thread and hockey experts, insiders and ex players.

Nakamura is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:52 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.