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Ken Holland less than confident

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Old
01-18-2013, 04:22 PM
  #126
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Originally Posted by Roy S View Post
Detest for Holland has run in cycles throughout the years. I remember vividly after the 00 and 01 playoff runs that a number of Wings fans clamored for a complete rebuild and for the team to be broken up and a lot of people didn't like Holland and thought he just rode the coattails for the 98 cup run and had no idea what he was doing. Plus, our farm system was garbage. Instead, he went for broke and brought in Hasek, Robitaille and Hull and Olausson and kept all his other old players and won the cup in 02. Stuff like that can't happen today because of the cap system, but if a number of fans got their way back then, the team would have been imploded far before then and started a full rebuild.
I don't know which people you talked to in 01, but few people called for "rebuild"
Wings fans weren't keen on rebuilding with Jari Tolsa and Yuri Butsayev.

In 01, most recognized the need to upgrade our goaltending and that's what we did. And then we got Hull and Robitaille.

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After quick playoff exits in 03, 04 and 06 and a very old roster, a number of fans were fed up with Holland again and wanted to tear the whole thing apart again. I doubt anyone actually believed that the Wings would actually be arguably the most successful organization from the 05-06 season to 11-12 with more playoff wins than anyone else and as just one of two teams to make the playoffs each year. After 06, a number of people wanted Datsyuk gone and hated his contract extension. The contract to Kronwall was wildly criticized. Why was Homer brought back again? When will Chelios, Draper, Maltby, etc. be let go? There was debate over re-signing Lidstrom b/c of his cap hit. Why weren't Flip and Hudler immediately given top 6 opportunities? Why weren't they more active in signing FA instead of promoting Franzen and Cleary to more advanced roles? Why was Osgood still on the roster? Why are we still trying a puck possession system when our talent doesn't call for it anymore? Then, after 06, the Wings had the most successful 3 year run than any organization has had in the salary cap era despite not going through a major rebuild and despite a number of controversial moves (like the Datsyuk extension).

The detest for Holland seems to have returned following another 3 year transition period that is similar to the playoff exits that happened in 99-01 and 03-06. In the 2 previous eras, he rebuilt on the fly without tearing it all apart and going with a huge youth movement like the fans would want and he was proven right. We'll see what happens this time around. If a number of fans had their way before, the 02 cup run never would have happened and the the 3 year stretch from 07 to 09 definitely would not have happened. Heck, Datsyuk wouldn't even be here.
Overall, this is a very disingenuous post.

Few people ever want the franchise "blown up."

What people want is change and adaptability.
What people want is our GM to address our needs and allow our talented youngsters the chance to improve our roster -- recognizing that young and inexpensive talent is vital to success in the salary cap era.

After our back-to-back wins, we struggled. Holland made EARTHMOVING decisions... waiving Osgood, trading Kozlov for Hasek, letting Lapointe go, signing Hull and Robitaille. Letting Verbeek, brown and Gill and Gilchrist go. Trading Ward.

The difference between the 01 roster and 02 roster was HUGE.
Out:Kozlov, LaPointe, Ward, Verbeek, Brown, Gilchrist, Gill Osgood
In: Hull, Robitaille, Hasek, Datsyuk, Olausson

And then when we lost in 07--- Despite our best playoff finish in years, Holland recognized chance was necessary.
Out: Lang, Schneider, Williams, Markov. Calder, Bertuzzi,
IN: Rafalski, Stuart, Kopecky, Drake, Downey, McCarty, Helm


Change is necessary. Improvement is necessary.
And with that, take a look at this year's out in
Out: Lidstrom, Stuart, Holmstrom, Hudler, MacDonald
IN: Coloaicovo, Brunner, Smith, Sammy, Gustavsson

A whole hellivalot has to go right for this year's IN to be better than the Out

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01-18-2013, 04:29 PM
  #127
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Originally Posted by FissionFire View Post
Maybe from a prospect development standpoint, but don't forget there is still the business aspect. With the Wings paying even more into revenue sharing that before it becomes that much more important for them to make the playoffs to boost income. Every single home playoff game is just icing on the cake for the business aspect of it. Not to mention the players themselves would like to get the extra income from a playoff share I'd imagine. How much revenue does a home playoff generate? Assuming it's 1M in total revenue simply making the playoffs is an extra 2M guaranteed income right there, and all at a time when player salaries are already paid out so in essence the expense of players is 0. Players are playing for free and teams get to pocket all the non-shared revenue.
Pretty weak reasoning. Especially considering the idea that Sammy and Bert get us in the playoffs and Tatar or Nyquist do not.

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01-18-2013, 04:39 PM
  #128
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Originally Posted by BinCookin View Post
Really? Stanley cup, stanley cup final, then 2nd round exit and you are supposed to see the trend??

The truth is more like 3 playoff exits in a row, and alot of 23-24 year old rookies ready to come in.

The only real mistake i see is this past offseason. Signing too many forwards and thus shutting down the ability to play ANY of the rookies.
Yes. Really. Even you win the cup, you need to be thinking of ways to refresh your roster and keep things energized.



You also have to realize, if we were to "fix" the team "your way" we could trade sammy, bert and miller

We could? Bert has a no-trade, doesn't he? Sammy has a no-trade. Besides, Holland doesn't trade away players. He's a collector, not a trader.


and bring in tatar, mursak, nyquist, its very possible we miss the playoffs and do horribly. Then in the 20/20 hindsight you would be yelling at him for throwing the rookies in before they were ready and of course for not signing any big name FA's etc etc.


No, I wouldn't be.
First of all, part of the problem is that we're even at the point where we'd need to start 4 rookies to get Tatar, Mursak, Nyquist and Smith in the lineup (5 if you count Brunner).

We have a bottleneck if you haven't noticed. And by stuffing those guys in the AHL, the bottleneck gets worse.

It's not rocket science.



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Sorry to say but we are just running out of talent on these low draft picks, its also possible that none of our rookies can actually play in the NHL (tatar, mursak, emmerton). They might all be NHL busts. But I would like to see them played for 1 year to prove it. Maybe all these hockey coaches they have can determine that with fewer games, I dont know.
We are not running out of talent. Not even close.
Now, do we have the next Datsyuk or Zetterberg? I don't think so. But we've got a lot of good, talented prospects. More now than I can ever remember in the organization.

It's one thing to go with vets like Sammy and Bertuzzi over kids when you're defending cup champs or one tiny move away from being a cup contender.

it's stupid to do it where the Wings are.

I told people this last year... the worse holland does at working youngsters into the lineup .... the more drastic the rebuiild will be.

Give 2-4 youngsters a legit a shot to make the lineup every year and you can rebuild without pain.

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01-18-2013, 05:19 PM
  #129
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Originally Posted by HTT3 View Post
Wings didn't have much talent in the farm system until the last 4 years or so... to say Holland did nothing to help the team is bull****. He turned our pathetic farm system to arguably the top 5 without any top 15 draft picks.

It's not like Holland can trade Brayden Schenn's for Mike Richards' all day long and twice on Sunday like other teams can. Wings just don't have the assets.
So Holland gets credit for making our farm system top 5 but gets excused from doing nothing because he doesn't have assets.

Talk about having it both ways.

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01-18-2013, 05:45 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
LOL.
What's so funny, KB?

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I'm usually a minority voice on issues on this board.
And you still are.

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Though, that's gradually changing as some of the flaws I've pointed out are too obvious to ignore.
I'm not sure what flaws you are speaking up.

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And on this particular issue, I'd say the majority of Wings fans at HFboards agree with me.
Probably because common sense says it didn't make much sense originally to sign them. Not even you can be the contrarian to common sense... Or can you...?

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There was no need to sign Sammy and/or Bert this year.
As we're seeing with all the injuries mounting in training, yes indeed there was a purpose in signing these guys since they provided valuable depth in this mad dash to the finish of a season. They're veterans who can keep a calm head in the middle of the biggest transition this team has made since Post-Yzerman/Shanahan transition. We're not throwing them onto the bottom six, either. They're getting proper minutes as a part of a playoff team.


We're playing in the 2012-13 season. You have to go back to the 2005 draft to find an Wings pick who has established himself in the NHL.

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2006 -- We traded Mathtias. Mursak still hasn't had a legit opportunity. Emmerton wasn't getting much of a look at 8 minutes a night. Axelsson and Larsson are guys with potential NHL caliber skill and smelled the NHL
-Shawn Matthias is a career fourth line center. Are you weeping over a friggin fourth liner?

-Give me a break. Mursak was going to get his shot last year. Then he got injured, as unfortunate as it was and things were just too packed for him to play. He was in the same spot Eaves found himself in. Stuff happens. Give it a rest. He's a 3rd liner at best, so get over it.

-No one is missing Axelsson, and we have Petr Mrazek waiting in the wings. Howdja like Larsson, a pretty meh goalie, blocking Mrazek's path to the pros? You'd just be complaining about how Holland will hang onto Larsson and won't let Mrazek have a chance.... Holland can't win with you, can he?


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2007-- Brendan Smith, widely considered our best prospect and, in some circles, a top prospect in the game, played five full seasons in college and the AHL. From his draft, here are the number of JUST DEFENSEMEN with more NHL experience -- Alzner, Gunnarsson, Subban, Cole, Blum, Kampfer, Falk, Braun, Aulie, Weller, Martinez, Ellerby, McDonagh, Shattenkirk.
Of those guys, Cole, Blum, Ellerby, McDonagh and Shattenkirk and Alzner were drafted higher.
Here's a list of the members of the Wings Dcorps:
-Nicklas Lidstrom
-Brian Rafalski
-Niklas Kronwall
-Brad Stuart
-Jonathan Ericsson

He had 3 years of college before bypassing his fourth to go pro. He spent one full year in Grand Rapids and then a partial season last year since our Dcorps consisted of:

-Nick Lidstrom
-Ian White
-Niklas Kronwall
-Brad Stuart
-Jonathan Ericsson
-Jakub Kindl

So why are you complaining? Smith or Kindl (Both 1st rounders) likely gets benched most of the season for the other. That's not fair for either.

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How about Joakim Andersson? He turns 24 in a couple weeks. This guy wasn't ready for a 4th line role? Really, he was only supposed to have 3/4th line upside. So what else does he need to do in Grand Rapids? If I was Andersson I'd get the hell out of this organization anyway I could, because
Gee, have you ever heard of Darren Helm? Or Kris Draper? Or Justin Abdelkader for that matter? They've been centers for the Wings in the last couple of years. Two of 'em still are. OH YEAH, and there's a guy named Calle Jarnkrok coming over next year. We're absolutely loaded at center at the moment. Some times, some we just don't have room even when all we have are youngsters to choose from.

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2008 - Gustav Nyquist... 23 years old and has 18 games to his name. He spent one too many years in college, and I said so at the time. You look a guy like Adam Henrique. He played two years of junior after his draft and then played 73 games in the AHL before he was given a shot on the Devils last year...and played a significant role on the Stanley Cup finalist. A guy like Derek Stepan... Younger than Nyquist and has 164 games to his name and played in 20 playoff games last spring.
One too many years in college? By who's standards? This is a bunch of arbitrary nonsense. He spent THREE years in college. He didn't even play junior after 2008, he was in COLLEGE.

Oh boo hoo, there were injuries and Adam Henrique got a shot he never would have had if Zajac hadn't got hurt. Guess what? Nyquist got a shot with injuries too, AND he was playing in the playoffs as well. Quit complaining. You're grasping at straws.


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By now, everyone with real promise from those drafts should have gotten a legit look in the NHL.
We're still debating on Mursak...and that Smith is just now getting his real look, and the Nyquist is heading down to the AHL unless there are injury problems.

That's poor asset management.
As I've explained, K'apn Bob, most of these guys are bottom sixers or are victims of unfortunate circumstances. That isn't poor asset management. That's just you seeing some young allstar talent dominate the game and then wondering why we won't give our bottom six talent a chance. Good grief.


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eally our lines coming into this year would have been...
Nyquist (year 2) Datsyuk Franzen
Flip Zetterberg Brunner
Cleary Helm Mursak (Year 3)
Tatar (rookie) Andersson (Year 2) Abdelkader
No Bertuzzi. No Sammy.
You've still got Miller/Eaves and even Emmerton on the bench. You've got callups like Sheahan and Ferraro.
If for some reason, one of those prospects like Mursak or Andersson just wasn't working, then you could have addressed that via trade or free agency or waivers.
And then our depth is extremely thin and one injury REALLY hurts. Smooth. That's terrible asset management.


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And then next year... when Clearly leaves. you've got Ferraro and Sheanahn and Janrkrok pushing for a job. Maybe you let Flip go and spend that money on a primetime defenseman.
Which primetime defenseman did you have in mind, exactly? What you are advocating is putting us in the same situation were last summer: Gambling on Free Agency, and this time with an even thinner crop of decent Dmen. Dumb. Dumb. Dumb. Dumb. Dumb. We wouldn't even have assets to trade under your proposal, because they ARE our depth.

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Ken Holland likes to say, you want 2 NHLers out of a draft. What's the ****ing point if you never put them in the NHL?
Depth. Options. Injury Fallbacks. Tradeable assets. Reload Pieces. Things we wouldn't have under your plan.

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If you want 2 NHLers per draft, then you should be introducing 2 rookies every year (on average) if you're drafting well.
07-08: Kopecky
08-09: Loaded roster, no room for anyone
09-10: Ericsson, Helm
10-11: Abdelkader, Kindl
11-12: Emmerton, host of other other first timers got a chance to play last season due to injuries

Looks like for the most part, at least 2 rookies are getting a decent shot at the NHL... Guess that's decent asset management.

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01-18-2013, 05:59 PM
  #131
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Breaking up a post into 14 multiquotes is just obnoxious. Who wants to take the time to respond to that mess.

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01-18-2013, 06:22 PM
  #132
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Alex Edler will hit FA. He is not a super star, but he is exactly what the Wings need (minus the left handed shooting). If he hits FA, he will get super star money. Sadly, the Wings will not be signing him or Perry or Getzlaf if any of them hit FA.

We have a plethora of prospects Ken Holland can talk about and say how they dont need those players. Meanwhile he will proceed to keep them in the AHL for another decade.

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01-18-2013, 06:38 PM
  #133
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
I don't know which people you talked to in 01, but few people called for "rebuild"
Wings fans weren't keen on rebuilding with Jari Tolsa and Yuri Butsayev.

In 01, most recognized the need to upgrade our goaltending and that's what we did. And then we got Hull and Robitaille.
A number of people wanted Holland to trade away the vets for prospects and rebuild prior to that crazy off season. This was true even before the failures in the 2001 postseason. It was the prevailing theme at the time in newspapers, radio, etc. Even still, a lot of people thought that team was too old to win anything in 02- especially after its 0-2 start against the Canucks and heading into game 6 against the Avs.


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And then when we lost in 07--- Despite our best playoff finish in years, Holland recognized chance was necessary.
Out: Lang, Schneider, Williams, Markov. Calder, Bertuzzi,
IN: Rafalski, Stuart, Kopecky, Drake, Downey, McCarty, Helm
Its not just moves made from one offseason- teams are made up from acquisitions from years and years before and its often moves you don't make that end up being underrated. Trading or letting Datsyuk walk, for example, would have negatively impacted every Wings team after his contract expired before the 07-08 off season.

The 07-08 team, alone, had a number of pieces that were roundly criticized at one time or another.

Datsyuk? Should've already been traded or let go in FA.
Homer? Should've already been let go and certainly not on line 1.
Sammy? Should've already been let go and was roundly criticized.
Franzen? Some doubted his ability to effectively play in the top 6 before he broke out.
Draper, Drake, Maltby, McCarty? They were old vets- thus, it was time to let them go.
Lidstrom? There was debate about his high cap hit being worth it.
Rafalski? Pretty criticized signing and a bit of a whipping boy on the board due to his defense.
Kronwall? Extension was roundly criticized.
Lilja? Along with Sammy, he was a board whipping boy.
Osgood? No one expected a season/playoff like that.
Plus, there was the constant Flip vs. Hudler debates about how Babcock was using them.

In hindsight, sure it seems obvious that they would be successful. After 06, and considering the 3 early playoff exits in a row, few would have expected Holland and the Wings to go on such a run with the above roster. Go look through the old posts from those seasons, especially about Datsyuk.

Plus, in general, the Wings have consistently had one of the oldest teams in the league every year for the past 20+ years. They've also been the best organization in that time span. That doesn't mean to imply cause and effect. But the idea that pumping a team with a bunch of youngsters will lead to a better present and future flies in the face of what we've seen with this franchise the last 20 years. There appears to be this belief that throwing away established vets and sprinkling in rookies that no one has any idea how they will perform will make the team better. But, that is more of a grass is always greener bias than anything and not really an argument. Nyquist being in year 2 now, Mursak being in year 3, etc. Maybe those players wouldn't be any better, maybe they'd actually be worse? No one has any idea, so both sides would have to be represented and weighed.


Last edited by Roy S: 01-18-2013 at 07:05 PM.
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01-18-2013, 06:41 PM
  #134
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Originally Posted by WingedWheel1987 View Post
Alex Edler will hit FA. He is not a super star, but he is exactly what the Wings need (minus the left handed shooting). If he hits FA, he will get super star money. Sadly, the Wings will not be signing him.
It depends of his girlfriend. If she is Swedish, we have a good chance. And if she hates Sedin's wifes, we have even greater chance and he comes here with a discount.

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01-18-2013, 06:41 PM
  #135
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Originally Posted by WingedWheel1987 View Post
Alex Edler will hit FA. He is not a super star, but he is exactly what the Wings need (minus the left handed shooting). If he hits FA, he will get super star money. Sadly, the Wings will not be signing him or Perry or Getzlaf if any of them hit FA.
Oh for Pete's sake. We didn't want Parise, and we couldn't beat playing with friends for metric tons of cash close to home. Gift it a rest

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01-18-2013, 06:54 PM
  #136
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Originally Posted by WingedWheel1987 View Post
This farm system is still garbage. What prospects have made any real impact during the past five years? Justin Abdelkader?

I dont care about potential. Give me tangible results. Brendan Smith should have been in the NHL last year, but instead he gets thrown into the fire and is expected to be the savior of the Wings blue line.

Gustav Nyquist is gonna rot in the NHL another year thanks to Holland signing Mikael Samuelsson.

Extended Bert for two years......hooray. Why isnt Tatar taking his roster spot?

You talk about this insane prospect pool, yet Holland refuses to let any of the prospects play. The Wings are no longer in the position to let their prospects sit in AHL for half a decade.

Ken Holland's excuse when the Wings were up at the cap was, "They didnt have any cap space to sign anyone of substance."

His excuse after they had cap space was, "It was too expensive to sign anyone of substance."

Why didnt he sign Ehrhoff? That is a great cap hit. He didnt feel like trading a 50th round pick for his negotiating rights? If you are going to wait for the big fish to hit the market, "Suter" and you dont offer the most money, what is the point of waiting for those big fish? Everyone is going to be offering max money. Only old players who want to retire still want to play for the Red Wings. Ken Holland has turned this place into a retirement community. He low balls all the FA's and expects them to take the Red Wing discount.

His offer to Parise was laughable. It was an empty gesture on Holland's part.

This clip from Curb Your Enthusiasm is what i am referring to when it comes to the Parise offer. "An empty gesture"

07vrD8PXMyU



Why not sign Semin for one year? You have the cap space. Instead, he signs Sammy for two years for a guy who is on a 35+ contract.

Ken Holland has made a ton of poor decisions since their last trip to the Finals, and it is his fault the team is a fringe playoff team at this point.

I give him all the credit for being the architect for those four cups, and i will give him all the credit for turning the Wings into garbage the past four years.
Wings don't have much to show for break out prospects from Abdelkader, Howard, Helm days is because before salary cap trading draft picks to win cups was fine and dandy. After the salary cap Holland made an oath that he wasn't trading picks anymore, he referred to draft picks as "gold". Thus far, he's kept his word. So that is why you don't see any mighty players the past 5 years, it's because the picks were traded away.

I would hardly call Nyquist, Oullette, Sproul, Mrzrak, Jarnkrok, Tatar, Smith, "garbage" just yet... And the jury is still out on guys like Jurco, Pulkinnen, Farrarro, and etc...

Bottom line, the prospect pool isn't so shallow anymore. There is some talent there.

We already covered the mikael samuelsson reasoning I thought...

Who shoots right, Nyquist or Tatar?

Who can QB the PP, Nyquist or Tatar?

If your answer is "neither", then you have your reason why Sammy is here. As for Semin, why didn't any other team line up to sign this guy? The reason is because there is an issue with him. Is it character, work, cancer? Who knows, but if 29 other teams are passing on a top 6 forward that has 40 goal potential, then there is something seriously, seriously wrong! I mean come on, how can some of the greatest hockey minds from all these other franchises be so wrong and you be so right. All you know is the stat sheets and the few times you watched him play... yet you think you know more about the guy than some of these hockey geniuses that get paid millions to build multi-million dollar hockey teams???? How is it even possible?

Hell, if Semin was so great then he should of did what Brad Richards did and rent out an entire floor of a hotel and made GMs wait in line to talk to him. And then decide he didn't want to meet with some GMs after making them wait...

Something is seriously off about Semin, nobody really wanted him. He's a past 40 goal scorer and GMs were avoiding him like plague. Hell, GMs showed more interest in Jiri Hudler and jaromir jagr than they did Semin. WTF is up with that??? What do you know that 29 other hockey clubs didn't know.. please tell me your great inside source. Bowman should hire you and fire his dad, you must have some real inside knowledge!!!

Bertuzzi shoot out goals pretty much clinched Detroit's playoffs hopes. Take away those shoot out goals and Wings might finish with 95 or 96 points. I would rather put Tatar on the top 6, not the bottom 6. Who get's bumped off the top 6 to play him? Zetterberg, Franzen or Brunner? Unless you want Babcock to not have a right handed shot (someone who actually isn't afraid of shooting the puck), he could bump Sammy down and just go with all Lefties and no shooters. But that doesn't make any sense... but hey, what does Babcock know..

Lol @ Ehrhoff? are you joking?? Please tell me you're joking...

The offer to Suter was HUGE and almost comparable to Wild's offer. It wasn't just about money, Suter almost chose Detroit until he got a phone call from his butt buddy begging him to go to the Wild. Illitch signs the checks and wanted Suter bad, I am sure if Illitch gave Holland the green light to offer $5 to $20 million more, he would have. Illitch was the engine behind that ordeal... I think Illitch himself had a cap at what he was willing to pay, not Holland.

And honestly, i doubt $5 more million would have landed him. $10-$20 million more would have hurt the club. Suter chose Wild because of Parise, get over it.

Parise was over paid and isn't really needed unless you want Nyquist and Tatar to never get their chance in red and white, because signing Parise means one or both of those guys are gone.

Wings have not missed the playoffs in 21 years and won 4 cups, that is one HELL of a feat, but still isn't good enough for many fans here. /shakes head in disbelief.

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01-18-2013, 07:02 PM
  #137
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Originally Posted by HTT3 View Post
Wings don't have much to show for break out prospects from Abdelkader, Howard, Helm days is because before salary cap trading draft picks to win cups was fine and dandy. After the salary cap Holland made an oath that he wasn't trading picks anymore, he referred to draft picks as "gold". Thus far, he's kept his word. So that is why you don't see any mighty players the past 5 years, it's because the picks were traded away.

I would hardly call Nyquist, Oullette, Sproul, Mrzrak, Jarnkrok, Tatar, Smith, "garbage" just yet... And the jury is still out on guys like Jurco, Pulkinnen, Farrarro, and etc...

Bottom line, the prospect pool isn't so shallow anymore. There is some talent there.

We already covered the mikael samuelsson reasoning I thought...

Who shoots right, Nyquist or Tatar?

Who can QB the PP, Nyquist or Tatar?

If your answer is "neither", then you have your reason why Sammy is here. As for Semin, why didn't any other team line up to sign this guy? The reason is because there is an issue with him. Is it character, work, cancer? Who knows, but if 29 other teams are passing on a top 6 forward that has 40 goal potential, then there is something seriously, seriously wrong! I mean come on, how can some of the greatest hockey minds from all these other franchises be so wrong and you be so right. All you know is the stat sheets and the few times you watched him play... yet you think you know more about the guy than some of these hockey geniuses that get paid millions to build multi-million dollar hockey teams???? How is it even possible?

Hell, if Semin was so great then he should of did what Brad Richards did and rent out an entire floor of a hotel and made GMs wait in line to talk to him. And then decide he didn't want to meet with some GMs after making them wait...

Something is seriously off about Semin, nobody really wanted him. He's a past 40 goal scorer and GMs were avoiding him like plague. Hell, GMs showed more interest in Jiri Hudler and jaromir jagr than they did Semin. WTF is up with that??? What do you know that 29 other hockey clubs didn't know.. please tell me your great inside source. Bowman should hire you and fire his dad, you must have some real inside knowledge!!!

Bertuzzi shoot out goals pretty much clinched Detroit's playoffs hopes. Take away those shoot out goals and Wings might finish with 95 or 96 points. I would rather put Tatar on the top 6, not the bottom 6. Who get's bumped off the top 6 to play him? Zetterberg, Franzen or Brunner? Unless you want Babcock to not have a right handed shot (someone who actually isn't afraid of shooting the puck), he could bump Sammy down and just go with all Lefties and no shooters. But that doesn't make any sense... but hey, what does Babcock know..

Lol @ Ehrhoff? are you joking?? Please tell me you're joking...

The offer to Suter was HUGE and almost comparable to Wild's offer. It wasn't just about money, Suter almost chose Detroit until he got a phone call from his butt buddy begging him to go to the Wild. Illitch signs the checks and wanted Suter bad, I am sure if Illitch gave Holland the green light to offer $5 to $20 million more, he would have. Illitch was the engine behind that ordeal... I think Illitch himself had a cap at what he was willing to pay, not Holland.

And honestly, i doubt $5 more million would have landed him. $10-$20 million more would have hurt the club. Suter chose Wild because of Parise, get over it.

Parise was over paid and isn't really needed unless you want Nyquist and Tatar to never get their chance in red and white, because signing Parise means one or both of those guys are gone.

Wings have not missed the playoffs in 21 years and won 4 cups, that is one HELL of a feat, but still isn't good enough for many fans here. /shakes head in disbelief.
Wings dont have anything to show for their prospects because Ken Holland keeps them in the dungeon for two decades.

Those are some nice names with potential, but thats all they got. That potential wont be realized if they arent in the NHL.

Put Flip on the third line and Helm on the 4th line. Thats real depth. so Nyquist and Tatar can get a shot on the top six or play Tatar in the bottom six instead of signing garbage like Tootoo.

Sammy is here because Holland is a garbage man.

Wow, thanks Bert for allowing me to witness the Wings get dismantled by the Preds. Totally worth it...............

Ehrhoff is great. He had a bad year on a bad team. I expect him to rebound.

That offer to Suter was still eight million below what Minny offered.

Parise's offer was 68 million. (See empty gesture)

Nyquist and Tatar are already getting screwed by Sammy. I would rather see them get screwed by Parise. I hate the length of the contract, but unfortunately thats what it takes to get star players.

Thanks for the four cups, but that doesnt excuse the awful job Holland has done the past four years.

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01-18-2013, 07:23 PM
  #138
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So Holland gets credit for making our farm system top 5 but gets excused from doing nothing because he doesn't have assets.

Talk about having it both ways.
He's not trading them off because prospects are the future. Holland isn't going all in for a one year window, he's reloading on the fly. I believe Holland received trade offers for B. Smith but ultimately turned them down.


The prospects are more valuable for the future than they are for trade.

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01-18-2013, 08:50 PM
  #139
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For those mentioning Bert and his shootout skills.

Yes true, but I have a feeling our team has a plethera of shoot out guys.

D, Z, Flip could be our 3 shooters. I am sure a few others could be trained.



One day we will debate the '12-13' season and say, wow was that team strong when we won the 5th cup in ~20 years !!

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01-18-2013, 09:06 PM
  #140
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For those mentioning Bert and his shootout skills.

Yes true, but I have a feeling our team has a plethera of shoot out guys.

D, Z, Flip could be our 3 shooters. I am sure a few others could be trained.



One day we will debate the '12-13' season and say, wow was that team strong when we won the 5th cup in ~20 years !!
I have no problem eating that crow if it did happen.

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01-18-2013, 09:38 PM
  #141
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I have no problem eating that crow if it did happen.
Just thought we needed more optimism !

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01-18-2013, 09:48 PM
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For those mentioning Bert and his shootout skills.

Yes true, but I have a feeling our team has a plethera of shoot out guys.

D, Z, Flip could be our 3 shooters. I am sure a few others could be trained.



One day we will debate the '12-13' season and say, wow was that team strong when we won the 5th cup in ~20 years !!
Z isn't great at shootouts, which is why he doesn't shoot often. And no, you can't just "train" somebody to be good at shootouts. That is absurd. It is a natural gift.

But I agree with your Stanley Cup prediction! Go Wings.

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01-18-2013, 09:52 PM
  #143
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For those mentioning Bert and his shootout skills.

Yes true, but I have a feeling our team has a plethera of shoot out guys.

D, Z, Flip could be our 3 shooters. I am sure a few others could be trained.



One day we will debate the '12-13' season and say, wow was that team strong when we won the 5th cup in ~20 years !!
Bert and Datsyuk are our two best guys. Filpulla is average and Zetterberg is a one trick pony; he's too predictable. Hudler was our 3rd best guy...

SO points are greatly underestimated on here. Without scraping those extra points we may not even make the playoffs.

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01-18-2013, 10:01 PM
  #144
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What's so funny, KB?


And you still are.



I'm not sure what flaws you are speaking up.



Probably because common sense says it didn't make much sense originally to sign them. Not even you can be the contrarian to common sense... Or can you...?


As we're seeing with all the injuries mounting in training, yes indeed there was a purpose in signing these guys since they provided valuable depth in this mad dash to the finish of a season. They're veterans who can keep a calm head in the middle of the biggest transition this team has made since Post-Yzerman/Shanahan transition. We're not throwing them onto the bottom six, either. They're getting proper minutes as a part of a playoff team.


We're playing in the 2012-13 season. You have to go back to the 2005 draft to find an Wings pick who has established himself in the NHL.


-Shawn Matthias is a career fourth line center. Are you weeping over a friggin fourth liner?

-Give me a break. Mursak was going to get his shot last year. Then he got injured, as unfortunate as it was and things were just too packed for him to play. He was in the same spot Eaves found himself in. Stuff happens. Give it a rest. He's a 3rd liner at best, so get over it.

-No one is missing Axelsson, and we have Petr Mrazek waiting in the wings. Howdja like Larsson, a pretty meh goalie, blocking Mrazek's path to the pros? You'd just be complaining about how Holland will hang onto Larsson and won't let Mrazek have a chance.... Holland can't win with you, can he?




Here's a list of the members of the Wings Dcorps:
-Nicklas Lidstrom
-Brian Rafalski
-Niklas Kronwall
-Brad Stuart
-Jonathan Ericsson

He had 3 years of college before bypassing his fourth to go pro. He spent one full year in Grand Rapids and then a partial season last year since our Dcorps consisted of:

-Nick Lidstrom
-Ian White
-Niklas Kronwall
-Brad Stuart
-Jonathan Ericsson
-Jakub Kindl

So why are you complaining? Smith or Kindl (Both 1st rounders) likely gets benched most of the season for the other. That's not fair for either.



Gee, have you ever heard of Darren Helm? Or Kris Draper? Or Justin Abdelkader for that matter? They've been centers for the Wings in the last couple of years. Two of 'em still are. OH YEAH, and there's a guy named Calle Jarnkrok coming over next year. We're absolutely loaded at center at the moment. Some times, some we just don't have room even when all we have are youngsters to choose from.


One too many years in college? By who's standards? This is a bunch of arbitrary nonsense. He spent THREE years in college. He didn't even play junior after 2008, he was in COLLEGE.

Oh boo hoo, there were injuries and Adam Henrique got a shot he never would have had if Zajac hadn't got hurt. Guess what? Nyquist got a shot with injuries too, AND he was playing in the playoffs as well. Quit complaining. You're grasping at straws.



As I've explained, K'apn Bob, most of these guys are bottom sixers or are victims of unfortunate circumstances. That isn't poor asset management. That's just you seeing some young allstar talent dominate the game and then wondering why we won't give our bottom six talent a chance. Good grief.



And then our depth is extremely thin and one injury REALLY hurts. Smooth. That's terrible asset management.



Which primetime defenseman did you have in mind, exactly? What you are advocating is putting us in the same situation were last summer: Gambling on Free Agency, and this time with an even thinner crop of decent Dmen. Dumb. Dumb. Dumb. Dumb. Dumb. We wouldn't even have assets to trade under your proposal, because they ARE our depth.


Depth. Options. Injury Fallbacks. Tradeable assets. Reload Pieces. Things we wouldn't have under your plan.



07-08: Kopecky
08-09: Loaded roster, no room for anyone
09-10: Ericsson, Helm
10-11: Abdelkader, Kindl
11-12: Emmerton, host of other other first timers got a chance to play last season due to injuries

Looks like for the most part, at least 2 rookies are getting a decent shot at the NHL... Guess that's decent asset management.
Wow. A thread full of insults and flame bait.
Nice job.

We haven't developed a single draft pick since 2005.
That's all that needs to be said.

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01-18-2013, 10:10 PM
  #145
The Zetterberg Era
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Everyone can cross Edler off their wish list, he just re-signed with Vancouver.

https://twitter.com/GMMikeGillis/sta...67923338031104


Last edited by The Zetterberg Era: 01-18-2013 at 10:14 PM. Reason: put in the link
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01-18-2013, 10:13 PM
  #146
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Alex Edler will hit FA. He is not a super star, but he is exactly what the Wings need (minus the left handed shooting). If he hits FA, he will get super star money. Sadly, the Wings will not be signing him or Perry or Getzlaf if any of them hit FA.

We have a plethora of prospects Ken Holland can talk about and say how they dont need those players. Meanwhile he will proceed to keep them in the AHL for another decade.
You were saying?

Never rely on FA.

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01-18-2013, 10:23 PM
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You were saying?

Never rely on FA.
Exactly.

Especially for serious talent.
Unless you're willing to overpay, UFA is good for complementary players.

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01-18-2013, 10:26 PM
  #148
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Wow there's a lot of anger in this thread.

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01-18-2013, 10:37 PM
  #149
WingedWheel1987
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You were saying?

Never rely on FA.
I threw in an "if" in the second sentence. It doesn't matter since he was never going to sign in Detroit if he hit FA. Holland would have offered him eight dollars and a stick of gum.

Interesting signing since every GM now knows the Nucks will be in cap hell next year. Luongo's trade value just plummeted.

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01-18-2013, 10:52 PM
  #150
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I threw in an "if" in the second sentence. It doesn't matter since he was never going to sign in Detroit if he hit FA. Holland would have offered him eight dollars and a stick of gum.

Interesting signing since every GM now knows the Nucks will be in cap hell next year. Luongo's trade value just plummeted.
Oh for pete's sake. You said Edler "WILL" hit FA, then you say "If". You can't have your cake and eat it as well. But your analysis on how Holland goes about trying to sign Star FA's is not only off base but nauseating to those of us with a realistic perspective on things. A). Holland had the highest offer for Suter B). Minnesota backed up the container ship of cash and promised him the power of friendship with his buddy Parise and close vicinity to home C). Suter didn't bother to give us a chance to match. D). We had no interest in Parise whatsoever. Nowhere near the same interest we had in Suter.

Those are the facts. You can either accept them, or continue to live in this bizzaro world where you are somehow the best NHL GM in the country or something of the ilk that allows you to legitimately look down upon one of the most respected GMs in the game, whether warranted or not.

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