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Old
01-18-2013, 10:00 PM
  #151
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JmanWingsFan View Post
Oh for pete's sake. You said Edler "WILL" hit FA, then you say "If". You can't have your cake and eat it as well. But your analysis on how Holland goes about trying to sign Star FA's is not only off base but nauseating to those of us with a realistic perspective on things. A). Holland had the highest offer for Suter B). Minnesota backed up the container ship of cash and promised him the power of friendship with his buddy Parise and close vicinity to home C). Suter didn't bother to give us a chance to match. D). We had no interest in Parise whatsoever. Nowhere near the same interest we had in Suter.

Those are the facts. You can either accept them, or continue to live in this bizzaro world where you are somehow the best NHL GM in the country or something of the ilk that allows you to legitimately look down upon one of the most respected GMs in the game, whether warranted or not.
Holland did not have the highest offer on Suter we know this. His offer was fair and I understand why it didn't budge from 90 million after going up from 80, but we know for a fact that was not the highest offer. It was a fair offer and a big offer but A is false, especially since his agent claims 98 million wasn't the biggest offer he got either.

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01-18-2013, 10:01 PM
  #152
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Originally Posted by JmanWingsFan View Post
Oh for pete's sake. You said Edler "WILL" hit FA, then you say "If". You can't have your cake and eat it as well. But your analysis on how Holland goes about trying to sign Star FA's is not only off base but nauseating to those of us with a realistic perspective on things. A). Holland had the highest offer for Suter B). Minnesota backed up the container ship of cash and promised him the power of friendship with his buddy Parise and close vicinity to home C). Suter didn't bother to give us a chance to match. D). We had no interest in Parise whatsoever. Nowhere near the same interest we had in Suter.

Those are the facts. You can either accept them, or continue to live in this bizzaro world where you are somehow the best NHL GM in the country or something of the ilk that allows you to legitimately look down upon one of the most respected GMs in the game, whether warranted or not.
I look down on Ken Holland because he has done an abysmal job the past four years. Sorry if i dont give Kenny a pass because of what he did five years ago. You are welcome to do so.

His entire game plan to fix the Wings was to sign Suter. He gambled and lost by doing nothing with the roster the previous years which backed him into a corner that forced him to gamble via FA to fix a giant hole in the roster.

Elite players almost never make it to FA, and Ken Holland was busy massaging the cap hit while a "small market team" threw the Brinks Truck at both those players.

Holland should have offered over 100 million+ and seen how much "the power of friendship" was really worth.

What number is "cap space" going to wear tomorrow night and how many goals do you think he is going to score?

My personal prediction is zero goals and zero assists. He is gonna have a slow start because of the lockout.

I think "cap space" will have his jersey retired by the Wings when his illustrious career is finished.

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01-18-2013, 10:05 PM
  #153
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I thought that the Wild, the Flyers, and the Predators all offered more money to Suter than the Wings did? Not positive though. I know Nashville said they would match any offer but were not given the chance to and the Flyers offered huge money but he didn't want to play in the East.

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01-18-2013, 10:06 PM
  #154
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it's an easier job when you are following Devallano, Murray and Bowman and reaping from their moves. If Hakan doesn't find Datsyuk and Zetterberg the questions would be how long ago would Holland have been fired.

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01-18-2013, 10:06 PM
  #155
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Originally Posted by WingedWheel1987 View Post
What number is "cap space" going to wear tomorrow night and how many goals do you think he is going to score?
Chances are they will be wearing numbers 2, 24, 35, and 51. I know that doesn't make you happy, but that is a great deal of where that cap space is likely going.

Once again dangerous to bank on free agency, but cap space could also be wearing #10 while playing against Vancouver tomorrow night. I would offer Perry 7 years 56 million and buy out Franzen with all that cheddar Ilitch has in the bank. We will see, but that is one of the scenarios where the Franzen buy out even with me as a pretty vocal Franzen defender is absolutely a green light situation.

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01-18-2013, 10:07 PM
  #156
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Originally Posted by RomersWorld View Post
I thought that the Wild, the Flyers, and the Predators all offered more money to Suter than the Wings did? Not positive though. I know Nashville said they would match any offer but were not given the chance to and the Flyers offered huge money but he didn't want to play in the East.
I think you're correct, the rumors were the Flyers opened with a bid over 100 million and were told Suter was not interested.

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01-18-2013, 10:10 PM
  #157
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Originally Posted by RedWings19405 View Post
Chances are they will be wearing numbers 2, 24, 35, and 51. I know that doesn't make you happy, but that is a great deal of where that cap space is likely going.

Once again dangerous to bank on free agency, but cap space could also be wearing #10 while playing against Vancouver tomorrow night. I would offer Perry 7 years 56 million and buy out Franzen with all that cheddar Ilitch has in the bank. We will see, but that is one of the scenarios where the Franzen buy out even with me as a pretty vocal Franzen defender is absolutely a green light situation.
The master GM Ken Holland was banking on FA to fix the Wings. He didnt have a plan B, C, D, E or F once Suter didnt sign in Detroit.

Holland's poor decisions are what forced the Wings to rely on signing Suter as their get out of jail free card. If you dont have a backup plan, you might aswell tell Suter, "Hey, here is a blank check and you fill in the blanks." If he still doesnt sign, well i cant fault Holland. Unfortunately even his all in approach was far too conservative.

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01-18-2013, 10:11 PM
  #158
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Originally Posted by Motown Beatdown View Post
it's an easier job when you are following Devallano, Murray and Bowman and reaping from their moves. If Hakan doesn't find Datsyuk and Zetterberg the questions would be how long ago would Holland have been fired.
Murray has lacked the ability to be a finish line guy at other stops, he does do good job of building a base though when looking at Detroit, Anaheim and Ottawa. As for GM Bowman that is greatly exaggerated he has had the role a couple of times with mixed results and his advisor role and sons work is currently under a lot of fire in Chicago. Last I checked Devallano is still in the building. Holland has earned a lot of his reputation and now faces another big challenge, there are very few guys I would rather have going into that challenge.

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01-18-2013, 10:18 PM
  #159
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Originally Posted by WingedWheel1987 View Post
The master GM Ken Holland was banking on FA to fix the Wings. He didnt have a plan B, C, D, E or F once Suter didnt sign in Detroit.

Holland's poor decisions are what forced the Wings to rely on signing Suter as their get out of jail free card. If you dont have a backup plan, you might aswell tell Suter, "Hey, here is a blank check and you fill in the blanks." If he still doesnt sign, well i cant fault Holland. Unfortunately even his all in approach was far too conservative.
Tough to be flawless for 15 years, you know or almost double the second longest playoff streak running the Sharks 8 straight seasons with no cup appearances or wins.

There are two options in the event that Holland is dispatched, Nill and Yzerman. Don't even know that Stevie would leave Tampa. Plus more than likely Holland will stay on board as the President. The philosophy isn't going to change in a large way in either case.

I will caution people the same way on both Holland and Babcock. Might a new voice change things for the better? Yes, but it could also be like when people though Llyod Carr had become stale at U of M. Changing a culture that has gotten you to where the Wings are is probably not the best idea. I applaud those of you that are bold enough to think it is a good idea, but without the names you think are going to happen it is a little hard to get excited about. It could also be a bigger disaster than this blip on the radar, be careful what you wish for.

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01-18-2013, 10:22 PM
  #160
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Originally Posted by RomersWorld View Post
I thought that the Wild, the Flyers, and the Predators all offered more money to Suter than the Wings did? Not positive though. I know Nashville said they would match any offer but were not given the chance to and the Flyers offered huge money but he didn't want to play in the East.
The Wings' offer to Suter didn't matter, because they didn't make a competitive offer to Parise and Suter wasn't going anywhere without him. Those deals are both horrible, by the way.

None of those things are Ken Holland's fault.

Extending Bert with a no-trade, that's Ken Holland's fault.

Drafting one NHL forward (Franzen) with size and any kind of skill in the 15 years he's been GM, that's at least partially Ken Holland's fault.

This left the team in a position where it would feel pressure to extend Bert and sign Samuelsson, because they can't have a top 9 that's all under 5'10".

So the fact that Suter isn't on this team is not Ken Holland's fault, but the fact that Tatar and Nyquist aren't on this team IS his fault.

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01-18-2013, 10:24 PM
  #161
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Originally Posted by sarcastro View Post
The Wings' offer to Suter didn't matter, because they didn't make a competitive offer to Parise and Suter wasn't going anywhere without him. Those deals are both horrible, by the way.

None of those things are Ken Holland's fault.

Extending Bert with a no-trade, that's Ken Holland's fault.

Drafting one NHL forward (Franzen) with size and any kind of skill in the 15 years he's been GM, that's at least partially Ken Holland's fault.

This left the team in a position where it would feel pressure to extend Bert and sign Samuelsson, because they can't have a top 9 that's all under 5'10".
Those deals really are awful, but the Wings aren't in a position to be picky about turning down elite talent.

The loss of talent during the past four years has been staggering.

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01-18-2013, 10:49 PM
  #162
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Originally Posted by RedWings19405 View Post
Holland did not have the highest offer on Suter we know this. His offer was fair and I understand why it didn't budge from 90 million after going up from 80, but we know for a fact that was not the highest offer. It was a fair offer and a big offer but A is false, especially since his agent claims 98 million wasn't the biggest offer he got either.
Please read. Obviously, we did not have the highest offer, because Suter signed for more for the Wings. I forget who, and Google is being a jerk, but someone on here posted what I believe it was a twitter post saying that before the Minnesota Wild offered their ridiculous contracts that the Red Wings had the highest offer and best terms for Suter.


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Originally Posted by WingedWheel1987 View Post
I look down on Ken Holland because he has done an abysmal job the past four years. Sorry if i dont give Kenny a pass because of what he did five years ago. You are welcome to do so.
So you hate GMKH because the salary cap forced him to gut the loaded roster we had from 08-09 and had resort to plugs while relying on some of the younger guys like Ericsson and Helm, some of whom didn't turn out to be who we thought they were. Sometimes things never go your way. It's hard to blame people when that happens. I'm sure you would appreciate being called a terrible worker at your job when you tried your hardest and came up absolutely empty.



Quote:
His entire game plan to fix the Wings was to sign Suter. He gambled and lost by doing nothing with the roster the previous years which backed him into a corner that forced him to gamble via FA to fix a giant hole in the roster.
It was a legitimate gamble. As posters such as Rice who had sources on the matter reminded us, we were inches at times from signing Suter.


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Elite players almost never make it to FA, and Ken Holland was busy massaging the cap hit while a "small market team" threw the Brinks Truck at both those players.
Oh please. Don't give me this garbage. What Leopold offered was an extra bit of chump change. Offering him $2 million extra to hit $100 Million wouldn't have trumped their plans to play together. It wasn't "Ken Holland doing some stupid thing that I imagined him doing because something didn't go our way and I need to chop someone's head off because of this." And again, based on negotiations, it was obvious we weren't interested in signing Parise. He had some money to throw at someone and tried with Parise, but it wasn't close. He basically did due diligence.


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Holland should have offered over 100 million+ and seen how much "the power of friendship" was really worth.
Maybe he would have. We don't know. Suter didn't bother asking us if we wanted to match.

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What number is "cap space" going to wear tomorrow night and how many goals do you think he is going to score?
Strawman argument. I never brought this up.


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Originally Posted by RomersWorld View Post
I thought that the Wild, the Flyers, and the Predators all offered more money to Suter than the Wings did? Not positive though. I know Nashville said they would match any offer but were not given the chance to and the Flyers offered huge money but he didn't want to play in the East.
Google is being a jerk, and I can't find anything else, but according to this article and others I've found, the Flyers offered both $80 million+ contracts. We don't know the exact numbers.

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01-18-2013, 10:49 PM
  #163
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It's just weird how we have this bridge where there aren't any good NHL-ready prospects and then all of a sudden we're looking at 5+ prospects ready to jump to the NHL.

If KH is such a great drafter, shouldn't we be bringing up 1 or 2 young players every year? If we are "retooling", then we're doing it wrong.

Smith should've been playing his rookie season last year, then Nyquist this year, then Tatar and Andersson and maybe Jarnkrok next year, and so-on and so-on. But instead, we're left with all these prospects ready for the NHL but stuck in line behind the Vets AND the other prospects who have been waiting even longer.

KH's development philosophy has left this team in a spot where we are likely going to have a down year because he's forced to bring up all the kids at once, instead of one or two every year.

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01-18-2013, 10:53 PM
  #164
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It's just weird how we have this bridge where there aren't any good NHL-ready prospects and then all of a sudden we're looking at 5+ prospects ready to jump to the NHL.

If KH is such a great drafter, shouldn't we be bringing up 1 or 2 young players every year? If we are "retooling", then we're doing it wrong.

Smith should've been playing his rookie season last year, then Nyquist this year, then Tatar and Andersson and maybe Jarnkrok next year, and so-on and so-on. But instead, we're left with all these prospects ready for the NHL but stuck in line behind the Vets AND the other prospects who have been waiting even longer.

KH's development philosophy has left this team in a spot where we are likely going to have a down year because he's forced to bring up all the kids at once, instead of one or two every year.
I give up.

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01-18-2013, 10:55 PM
  #165
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I dont know how to selectively quote on this site so i just copied and pasted your response.

So you hate GMKH because the salary cap forced him to gut the loaded roster we had from 08-09 and had resort to plugs while relying on some of the younger guys like Ericsson and Helm, some of whom didn't turn out to be who we thought they were. Sometimes things never go your way. It's hard to blame people when that happens. I'm sure you would appreciate being called a terrible worker at your job when you tried your hardest and came up absolutely empty

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Holland should have played the prospects like Tatar and Mursak during those years. The past two years in particular. If you have no cap space, but you extend players like Bert, you screw yourself over.

Ken Holland put the team in a very bad situation by extending Bert or bringing in players like Modano.

His failure to play the prospects was his biggest mistake the past four years. Now there is a massive log jam of prospects, and you still dont know if they are going to be good.

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01-18-2013, 10:56 PM
  #166
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I give up.

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01-18-2013, 11:22 PM
  #167
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Those deals really are awful, but the Wings aren't in a position to be picky about turning down elite talent.

The loss of talent during the past four years has been staggering.
I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here.

In order to get Suter, you would have had to get Parise as well.

Parise wanted to go home to Minnesota, so it would have taken even more ridiculous deals to get them to Detroit - assuming there was any amount of money that could have lured Parise to Detroit.

That would be two matching cap hits of roughly $16 mil in total, for each of the next 13 seasons. When both men are 35, they will have 5 years left on their contracts with that same $16 mil in cap hits.

If the Wild don't draft impeccably, they're going to be lousy for most of those 13 seasons. I'm very glad the Wings didn't end up trying to beat those offers.

Sure, it sucks that the Wings didn't get Suter - he's a really good player and would have made them a better team. But there was nothing to be done about it. If you want to get on them for filling up on Bertuzzis and neglecting the kids, I can see that argument. But there aren't any Suter-related criticisms that make any sense.

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01-19-2013, 08:10 AM
  #168
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Originally Posted by WingedWheel1987 View Post
I dont know how to selectively quote on this site so i just copied and pasted your response.

So you hate GMKH because the salary cap forced him to gut the loaded roster we had from 08-09 and had resort to plugs while relying on some of the younger guys like Ericsson and Helm, some of whom didn't turn out to be who we thought they were. Sometimes things never go your way. It's hard to blame people when that happens. I'm sure you would appreciate being called a terrible worker at your job when you tried your hardest and came up absolutely empty

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Holland should have played the prospects like Tatar and Mursak during those years. The past two years in particular. If you have no cap space, but you extend players like Bert, you screw yourself over.
Holland had to sign veteran plugs to put together a team after he gutted it in 09-10 due to the salary cap. We didn't HAVE any youngsters to plug in then. The ones that did were not very good, either. Most of those veterans' contracts are up either this year or next.


We aren't screwed. Do you bother to take a look at the state of the team in the future? Do you bother to consider current circumstances (Cap compliance buyouts) and the way this team operates combined with how our contracts are structured for this team? You haven't. We'll have three rookies next year: Tatar, Nyquist, and Jarnkrok. The next year we'll probably add Ferraro and Ouellet, and maybe more with FA departures. Your precious prospects are going to get their chance at a reasonable time. Get over yourself. Unlike you, Holland has the nerve to have a vision of what he sees his team in 5 years and acts accordingly. He isn't this narrowminded GM of lesser quality than Howson who says "HERP DERP, VETERAN MUST SIGN HIM TO THREE YEARS." He knows what he's doing.

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Ken Holland put the team in a very bad situation by extending Bert or bringing in players like Modano.
Bert's a non issue. His contract is not getting in anyone's way. Even at that, he could choose to retire next year and we cap compliance buyout his contract for free. As for Modano, you're just complaining for complaining's sake. He was signed to be a third line center. We didn't have anyone developed to take that spot yet, and it was for... GASP... ONE YEAR!!!! ZOMG, HE'S NOT ON THE TEAM ANYMORE!!!!
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His failure to play the prospects was his biggest mistake the past four years. Now there is a massive log jam of prospects, and you still dont know if they are going to be good.
His plan to not play the prospects this year has given us the deepest forward corps we've had since 08-09 (though not as deep as that team) and a forward corps that is almost too similar to the 07-08 squad. We're FINE. Quit your bellyaching. It's obnoxious.

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01-19-2013, 09:27 AM
  #169
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Remove Bertuzzi and Red Wings lose 6 points. That puts them at about 96 points last season. Next, Samulesson was on pace to score about 24 goals and 50 points last season (give or take), many of which that comes from the PP....

So, ummm, yeah, the risk of not making the playoffs is much higher if Detroit doesn't have Sammy and Bert for those aforementioned critical situations....
I must have forgot about the new rule that only Bertuzzi was allowed to score in the shootouts. Its not like if he wasnt there we'd automatically lose ALL of them, especially when Zetterberg, franzen and fil werent in the regular rotation

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01-19-2013, 09:31 AM
  #170
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Originally Posted by The Zetterberg Era View Post
Holland did not have the highest offer on Suter we know this. His offer was fair and I understand why it didn't budge from 90 million after going up from 80, but we know for a fact that was not the highest offer. It was a fair offer and a big offer but A is false, especially since his agent claims 98 million wasn't the biggest offer he got either.
I agree the offer Holland gave was fair and if Suter had any intention of coming to Detroit there would have been a deal to be made.

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01-19-2013, 09:35 AM
  #171
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it's an easier job when you are following Devallano, Murray and Bowman and reaping from their moves. If Hakan doesn't find Datsyuk and Zetterberg the questions would be how long ago would Holland have been fired.
I think anyone would agree that if you took away all of the good draft picks from any GM that has been around for a decade they wouldn't look good. Let's also take away the good contracts Holland signed with some of the best players on the league. Let's take away all the goos things he's done and call him a bad GM, I see your point.

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01-19-2013, 09:43 AM
  #172
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I agree the offer Holland gave was fair and if Suter had any intention of coming to Detroit there would have been a deal to be made.
I don't mean to go all Ricelund but I have heard that initially the members of the Wing's brass thought he was a sure thing. Early on he was heavily leaning towards Detroit.


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01-19-2013, 09:50 AM
  #173
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Originally Posted by WingedWheel1987 View Post
I dont know how to selectively quote on this site so i just copied and pasted your response.

So you hate GMKH because the salary cap forced him to gut the loaded roster we had from 08-09 and had resort to plugs while relying on some of the younger guys like Ericsson and Helm, some of whom didn't turn out to be who we thought they were. Sometimes things never go your way. It's hard to blame people when that happens. I'm sure you would appreciate being called a terrible worker at your job when you tried your hardest and came up absolutely empty

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Holland should have played the prospects like Tatar and Mursak during those years. The past two years in particular. If you have no cap space, but you extend players like Bert, you screw yourself over.

Ken Holland put the team in a very bad situation by extending Bert or bringing in players like Modano.

His failure to play the prospects was his biggest mistake the past four years. Now there is a massive log jam of prospects, and you still dont know if they are going to be good.
Everyone needs to get over Mursak. He's not a real NHL player. He will join Ritola in Europe in 2 years and be almost as good.

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01-19-2013, 10:00 AM
  #174
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Originally Posted by JmanWingsFan View Post
Holland had to sign veteran plugs to put together a team after he gutted it in 09-10 due to the salary cap. We didn't HAVE any youngsters to plug in then. The ones that did were not very good, either. Most of those veterans' contracts are up either this year or next.


We aren't screwed. Do you bother to take a look at the state of the team in the future? Do you bother to consider current circumstances (Cap compliance buyouts) and the way this team operates combined with how our contracts are structured for this team? You haven't. We'll have three rookies next year: Tatar, Nyquist, and Jarnkrok. The next year we'll probably add Ferraro and Ouellet, and maybe more with FA departures. Your precious prospects are going to get their chance at a reasonable time. Get over yourself. Unlike you, Holland has the nerve to have a vision of what he sees his team in 5 years and acts accordingly. He isn't this narrowminded GM of lesser quality than Howson who says "HERP DERP, VETERAN MUST SIGN HIM TO THREE YEARS." He knows what he's doing.


Bert's a non issue. His contract is not getting in anyone's way. Even at that, he could choose to retire next year and we cap compliance buyout his contract for free. As for Modano, you're just complaining for complaining's sake. He was signed to be a third line center. We didn't have anyone developed to take that spot yet, and it was for... GASP... ONE YEAR!!!! ZOMG, HE'S NOT ON THE TEAM ANYMORE!!!!


His plan to not play the prospects this year has given us the deepest forward corps we've had since 08-09 (though not as deep as that team) and a forward corps that is almost too similar to the 07-08 squad. We're FINE. Quit your bellyaching. It's obnoxious.
I don't understand why you're getting so worked up. He thinks some of our younger guys should've been getting roles earlier than they have or will so we don't have to shove 3 rookies into the lineup in one year and hope they all work out. Telling someone to "get over yourself" because they have a different opinion is really annoying and, quite frankly, your anger is making this thread tough to read.

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01-19-2013, 11:36 AM
  #175
HTT3*
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EZBAKE View Post
I must have forgot about the new rule that only Bertuzzi was allowed to score in the shootouts. Its not like if he wasnt there we'd automatically lose ALL of them, especially when Zetterberg, franzen and fil werent in the regular rotation
Other goalies would love it if Bertuzzi didn't participate in the SO against them. They'd be ecstatic to see Zetterberg or Filppula out there instead of Bertuzzi.

But yeah, no rule about it, it's about building the best possible team to make the playoffs, which is something you apparently have no regard for. Why not throw Abdelkader on the 1st line too while you're at it, I'm sure there are no rules in the handbook that says Abdelkader isn't allowed to score a goal once in awhile....

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