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P.K. Subban Thread - Mk III - Unsigned Edition

View Poll Results: Who should break first
Bergevin 61 25.00%
Subban 183 75.00%
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Old
01-18-2013, 10:11 PM
  #651
ECWHSWI
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Originally Posted by overlords View Post
Because Subban is significantly better.
Offensively he isnt.

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01-18-2013, 10:14 PM
  #652
Et le But
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
Offensively he isnt.
And defensively it's not even close.

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01-18-2013, 10:19 PM
  #653
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Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
And defensively it's not even close.
I'll give you a fair comparison to MDZ, do the same for Subban and look at the salaries...

MDZ -> Kaberle (not identical, but both can put up around 40 pts while not being great defensively... while Kaberle is making 4 Mil, MDZ agreed to a 2.5 Mil a year contract... and if you look around, those type of D usually makes around 4 Mil... yet MDZ agreed...

now your turn...

Subban -> ...

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01-18-2013, 10:20 PM
  #654
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The previous administration's biggest weakness wasn't giving out contracts (we've had some bad ones, but the only laughable one was from a trade in Gomez), it was poor use and development of our prospect, and trading them for "character" vets in quick-fix situations. Refusing to give a long term contract to our best U-25 player looks like more of the same to me.
Well I meant every dumb actions from signings to trades and whatever the past administrations didn't manage to do right in order to have a winning team.

I also don't think the contract issues are necessarily about length since we just signed max pac to a six year contract, I think Don Meehan is really looking to get the same amount of $ for PK as Doughty gets and there's the issue since is MB decides to pay he'll virtually have no room to maneuver this summer on the free agency market or through trades


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Old
01-18-2013, 10:43 PM
  #655
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Originally Posted by Matt19 View Post
Here's what I know:

I know PK Subban had a ton of ice time on a team which finished dead last in the east.

I know PK Subban has put up 38 and 36 point seasons, and with a whopping 14 career powerplay points.
huh? 14? he has 33 PP points. 33 of his 76 points were on the PP. almost half. that's crazy. i believe the hockey central panel brought that up yesterday, that PK needs to show he can dominate at 5x5 if he wants 6m/year, and he hasn't done that yet. he's a 20 point defenseman without all those PP minutes he's given.

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He also has 1 season with a positive plus minus.
not sure how this means anything. he played 2 seasons. one he had a good +/- and one he had a bad one. what point are you making?

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Old
01-18-2013, 10:47 PM
  #656
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Edler got a fair contract. He's better than Subban offensively but Subban is better defensively, so draw your own conclusions there. Edler could not handle the minutes Subban plays for the Habs, that's for sure, even if he's a more proven PP weapon.
This is so incorrect, Edler is very good defensively, had one bad series last year.

Also edler is dynamite offensively, much better then subban.

IMO subban should get a 8 year 4.5m type deal.

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01-18-2013, 10:52 PM
  #657
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After what Edler got, I can't believe PK will want more thant 4.5-5 milions per year. I think this signing could actually help Bergevin in the negotiations. At least, I hope so.

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01-18-2013, 10:54 PM
  #658
Et le But
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Originally Posted by Lucbourdon View Post
This is so incorrect, Edler is very good defensively, had one bad series last year.

Also edler is dynamite offensively, much better then subban.

IMO subban should get a 8 year 4.5m type deal.
As much as I like Edler, he's one of my favourite players actually, and yes he's far from a liability defensively, he's primarily used in an offensive role. You guys have the Hamuis-Bieksa shut-down pair that took the hardest 5 on 5 matchups, a luxury Montreal does not have.


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Old
01-18-2013, 10:54 PM
  #659
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If someone could do this with a Subban image that would be cool.
Why?

Because he's a mercenary?

Because his contract talks are frozen?

Because he's currently solo?

In any case, although my 'shoppin skills are a bit rusty (done close to squat since the end of the last season)...






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Old
01-18-2013, 11:04 PM
  #660
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Originally Posted by Impossible Glory View Post
After what Edler got, I can't believe PK will want more thant 4.5-5 milions per year. I think this signing could actually help Bergevin in the negotiations. At least, I hope so.
Every insider says the $ is not really the issue, the problem is term. So I don't think this signing has much of an impact if Bergevin keeps holding firm on 2 years.

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01-18-2013, 11:07 PM
  #661
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Originally Posted by Bloumeister View Post
Why?

Because he's a mercenary?

Because his contract talks are frozen?

Because he's currently solo?

In any case, although my 'shoppin skills are a bit rusty (done close to squat since the end of the last season)...





Thanks. I like it.

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Old
01-18-2013, 11:08 PM
  #662
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Thanks. I like it.
Wait 'til you get my bill

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01-18-2013, 11:09 PM
  #663
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Originally Posted by Lucbourdon View Post
This is so incorrect, Edler is very good defensively, had one bad series last year.

Also edler is dynamite offensively, much better then subban.

IMO subban should get a 8 year 4.5m type deal.
I see PK play much more than Edler so this is an honest question.. Is Edler really that much better than PK offensively? Edler plays on a much better team with much better players. You make it sound like PK isn't in the same league as Edler offensively.

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01-18-2013, 11:11 PM
  #664
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I like Subban, I really do... and I've defended him as a great player several times on the general and trade rumor boards. But I think a lot of you are vastly underrating MDZ for whatever reason. I know the difference is there, and I'd take Subban over MDZ for sure, but it's not THAT huge. Not right now. You guys need to watch some more NY games.

The main issue here really is value to the team. MDZ took a 2 year low-end bridge contract which is par for the course in NY. He's also the #4 D, whereas PK is expected to be a #1 guy. Losing MDZ for the Rangers would have been awful, yep, but not nearly as bad as it'd be for the Habs to lose PK. He knows it and he wants to cash in on that now rather than later.

2 years @ 3.5-4.0M is what should be happening imo. I wonder who blinks first.

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Old
01-18-2013, 11:12 PM
  #665
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Originally Posted by sheed36 View Post
I see PK play much more than Edler so this is an honest question.. Is Edler really that much better than PK offensively? Edler plays on a much better team with much better players. You make it sound like PK isn't in the same league as Edler offensively.
Edler is great offensively and has proven more...but last year especially he was in a role that played to his strengths. We can only speculate how Subban would be able to contribute offensively if he had a shutdown Bieksa-Hamhuis pairing complimenting him.

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01-18-2013, 11:15 PM
  #666
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Originally Posted by Marc the Habs Fan View Post
Every insider says the $ is not really the issue, the problem is term. So I don't think this signing has much of an impact if Bergevin keeps holding firm on 2 years.
And if this is the case, I can only draw three conclusions:

1- Bergie is smarter than us (or at least those of us that view subban as a true impact player with more to come)

2- Bergie is yet further proof that just bc you've been around the league a long time and worked with good ppl/"paid ur dues" does not mean you have a clue anymore than the casual fan

3-molson hired a rookie GM so he could dictate where his cash goes, & he doesn't like or doesn't see subban's potential

I can't understand this idiocy any other way... Since I view subban as the type of Rfa that you lock up long term above typical Rfa value bc he's about as sure of being "worth it" as anyone u can get to play 20+ minutes a game and not suck


& for the record, I've liked, or understood, every move Bergie has made thus far... This one reeks of "career-defining" blunder the way Gomez tarnished St -Bo's legacy

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01-18-2013, 11:24 PM
  #667
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I disagree that Edler is miles ahead of PK. I can't make a complete judgment since I don't watch Vancouver except in playoffs. But comparing stats. PK is not far off of what Edler has. And this is keeping in mind that Edler plays with one of the best teams during the regular season. And the Habs were worst in the East while mediocre the year before.

I won't disagree that Edler is very reliable. He's a key component of their team. But saying that he's way better than PK... C'mon, I want PK to cave and sign just like most of us here. But this is just deluding ourselves.

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01-18-2013, 11:25 PM
  #668
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Originally Posted by sheed36 View Post
I see PK play much more than Edler so this is an honest question.. Is Edler really that much better than PK offensively? Edler plays on a much better team with much better players. You make it sound like PK isn't in the same league as Edler offensively.
Both are great offensively, I do agree edler has had some better players around him, but Edler has a offensive presence I think PK misses, at this point.

That being said, PK has the chance to put up 60 points a year if he plays 2 his potential.

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01-18-2013, 11:25 PM
  #669
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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
And if this is the case, I can only draw three conclusions:

1- Bergie is smarter than us (or at least those of us that view subban as a true impact player with more to come)

2- Bergie is yet further proof that just bc you've been around the league a long time and worked with good ppl/"paid ur dues" does not mean you have a clue anymore than the casual fan

3-molson hired a rookie GM so he could dictate where his cash goes, & he doesn't like or doesn't see subban's potential

I can't understand this idiocy any other way... Since I view subban as the type of Rfa that you lock up long term above typical Rfa value bc he's about as sure of being "worth it" as anyone u can get to play 20+ minutes a game and not suck


& for the record, I've liked, or understood, every move Bergie has made thus far... This one reeks of "career-defining" blunder the way Gomez tarnished St -Bo's legacy
I agree. I think Berg has handle this situation really poorly. I also liked the moves he's made. Just not this situation.

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Old
01-18-2013, 11:36 PM
  #670
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Originally Posted by Cupmonger View Post
I disagree that Edler is miles ahead of PK. I can't make a complete judgment since I don't watch Vancouver except in playoffs. But comparing stats. PK is not far off of what Edler has. And this is keeping in mind that Edler plays with one of the best teams during the regular season. And the Habs were worst in the East while mediocre the year before.

I won't disagree that Edler is very reliable. He's a key component of their team. But saying that he's way better than PK... C'mon, I want PK to cave and sign just like most of us here. But this is just deluding ourselves.
c'mon what ?

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01-18-2013, 11:39 PM
  #671
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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
And if this is the case, I can only draw three conclusions:

1- Bergie is smarter than us (or at least those of us that view subban as a true impact player with more to come)

2- Bergie is yet further proof that just bc you've been around the league a long time and worked with good ppl/"paid ur dues" does not mean you have a clue anymore than the casual fan

3-molson hired a rookie GM so he could dictate where his cash goes, & he doesn't like or doesn't see subban's potential

I can't understand this idiocy any other way... Since I view subban as the type of Rfa that you lock up long term above typical Rfa value bc he's about as sure of being "worth it" as anyone u can get to play 20+ minutes a game and not suck


& for the record, I've liked, or understood, every move Bergie has made thus far... This one reeks of "career-defining" blunder the way Gomez tarnished St -Bo's legacy
1 - Nobody in this entire thread DOESN'T think that PK Subban is a true impact player with more to come. We ALL think that. That doesn't mean he deserves what (allegedly) he is asking for, which is close to Doughty type money and length.

2 - Bergy is holding firm on a figure that is (again allegedly) VERY reasonable. It's not like he's offering peanuts, he just doesn't want to give a player, ANY player an inflated contract cuz they have leverage. There's a poster on HIO who claims to have some inside info (it's in the comments in the article about Price's mask) where (if you believe him, and I kind of do) that Bergevin respects the Habs, the history and the greatness too much to bow to a single player who is trying to ask for more than what he deserves. I totally respect that attitude. YES - it could hurt the team now, BUT, it will hurt the team much more in the grand scheme if he gives PK a 6.5 for 6 years deal.

3 - I assume you realize this scenario is absurd.

I do agree that if PK agreed to 5 or even 5.5 for 6 years, that's a deal you should make, although I don't know whether Meehan is willing to go for that. He seems to be trying to replicate the Doughty situation and in a market where the fan pressure is added leverage.

Scenario 4:

PK doesn't play (you think he'll enjoy that?) until he agrees to a 2 year deal in which he is forced to work his butt off and show that he is what he thinks he's worth, and then gets the big bucks. Why this is such a problem for PK, I don't understand. He loves hockey, he supposedly loves the Habs and Montreal. What...is...the problem? Probably Meehan. This situation sucks hard and I don't like it more than you that things are the way they are, but IMO as much as Bergy can be criticized for limiting the offer to two years, PK can be criticized for not taking it. These threads have made him out to be the best D in the NHL, which he is not. He IS, however critical to our team so I hope this lockout-esque drama is over soon. Unfortunately, it looks like it's going to drag on into the season, thus ruining this one for us, but possibly saving future seasons. Hope I'm wrong and they meet half way.

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01-18-2013, 11:42 PM
  #672
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Originally Posted by Lucbourdon View Post
Both are great offensively, I do agree edler has had some better players around him, but Edler has a offensive presence I think PK misses, at this point.

That being said, PK has the chance to put up 60 points a year if he plays 2 his potential.
Okay thanks.. The Canucks got a great deal keeping Edler for that price. If he did make it to UFA some teams would've thrown much more money than that his way for sure.

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01-18-2013, 11:47 PM
  #673
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1 - Nobody in this entire thread DOESN'T think that PK Subban is a true impact player with more to come. We ALL think that. That doesn't mean he deserves what (allegedly) he is asking for, which is close to Doughty type money and length.
If he's a great impact player with the best to come then he is certainly worth more than 2 years @ 3.25 million per.

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01-18-2013, 11:54 PM
  #674
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I disagree that Edler is miles ahead of PK. I can't make a complete judgment since I don't watch Vancouver except in playoffs. But comparing stats. PK is not far off of what Edler has. And this is keeping in mind that Edler plays with one of the best teams during the regular season. And the Habs were worst in the East while mediocre the year before.

I won't disagree that Edler is very reliable. He's a key component of their team. But saying that he's way better than PK... C'mon, I want PK to cave and sign just like most of us here. But this is just deluding ourselves.
Bringing up that comparison when I did, I'm not saying Edler is better. But I'm saying they are comparable. And Edler's contract is UFA years.

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01-18-2013, 11:54 PM
  #675
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If he's a great impact player with the best to come then he is certainly worth more than 2 years @ 3.25 million per.
not there yet.

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