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P.K. Subban Thread - Mk III - Unsigned Edition

View Poll Results: Who should break first
Bergevin 61 25.00%
Subban 183 75.00%
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Old
01-18-2013, 11:57 PM
  #676
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not there yet.
You're bordering on ridiculous now.

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Old
01-19-2013, 12:01 AM
  #677
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huh? 14? he has 33 PP points. 33 of his 76 points were on the PP. almost half. that's crazy.
Good catch, I misread his stats on my phone. Will edit my post to show that.

And my point with his plus minus is that it's a short sample size, only having the one plus season. That's what makes it difficult to simply throw trucks of money at him at this stage.

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01-19-2013, 12:12 AM
  #678
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You're bordering on ridiculous now.
Bordering?

Look at our D with and without Subban there. If that's not an impact, I don't know what is.

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01-19-2013, 12:18 AM
  #679
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c'mon what ?
It's speaks for itself. Most of us don't watch the Canucks except on highlights and playoffs, well at least I do. My point is, people saying Edler is by far superior than PK is rubbish. Better, sure, we could argue on that and I'd say Edler is better. But not by as far as people seem to make. They're very comparable. And you have to take in account that Edler has been on a far better team than ours. Sure he's a part to play for that. But it also helps him.

So yea. What's not to get?

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01-19-2013, 12:21 AM
  #680
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You're bordering on ridiculous now.
GREAT IMPACT player ? really ? wonder who's being ridiculous...

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01-19-2013, 12:26 AM
  #681
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It's speaks for itself. Most of us don't watch the Canucks except on highlights and playoffs, well at least I do. My point is, people saying Edler is by far superior than PK is rubbish. Better, sure, we could argue on that and I'd say Edler is better. But not by as far as people seem to make. They're very comparable. And you have to take in account that Edler has been on a far better team than ours. Sure he's a part to play for that. But it also helps him.

So yea. What's not to get?
You admin not watching the Nucks much, and yet you think people claiming Edler is A LOT better is rubbish, you say they're comparable and all...

considering you barely watch Nucks games, wonder where you get this from... that is all.

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01-19-2013, 12:33 AM
  #682
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Bordering?

Look at our D with and without Subban there. If that's not an impact, I don't know what is.
Think people need to understand what IMPACT means...

I'll give you one example of impact, one of our ex C, with teams and teammates no better than what we have now, heck sometimes even worse, well that ex-C, while not possessing as many individual skills as P.K. does, managed to turn those Habs teams into playoff teams more often than not... THAT is impact.

here's another one, the guy who will play 1st pair D on the left tomorrow, in case you have forgotten, without him in the line-up we couldnt win more than what 15%, maybe 20% of our games... took us a long time to manage a better record without him in our line-up, THIS is also impact...

so please, tell me since you seems to agree with "great impact", what GREAT impact Subban has on this Habs team ? really...

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01-19-2013, 12:40 AM
  #683
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
You admin not watching the Nucks much, and yet you think people claiming Edler is A LOT better is rubbish, you say they're comparable and all...

considering you barely watch Nucks games, wonder where you get this from... that is all.
Ok. So a player that is supposedly miles ahead of PK. Puts up similar stats to him. While playing on a way better team than the Habs. I'm not saying that Edler is bad, or that he's a God. Nor am I saying that PK's a God or terrible. I'm just stating the obvious. That PK and Edler are very similar. And people can't really say that Edler is by far superior. Because the numbers don't lie. You don't need to follow a team throughout an entire season to come to that conclusion. Sure stats don't tell the whole story, just like it would for a defensive D. So one may say that Edler could be way better than PK. I'm sure he has more experience, he's had more time in the pros. But PK has been really good for us ever since he joined the Habs, all things considered, unfortunately people only remember his mistakes.

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01-19-2013, 01:07 AM
  #684
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If he's a great impact player with the best to come then he is certainly worth more than 2 years @ 3.25 million per.
Is that the figure he's being offered? If so, then I can see this being a situation where Bergevin should compromise given he's getting the 2-year deal. I have a feeling that he is offering more. Even IF Subban is super great blah blah blah, this step in his career did not have to warrant such a focus on the money. His first non-ELC contract really shouldn't be a monster. It's pretty ridiculous the more I think about it. What is the harm in playing the 2 years and then asking for a ton more for longer? What are those few million early in your career going to do for you? Not trying to tell PK what to do with his life, simply pointing out that we need to put things in perspective -- he just finished 2 years, Bergevin has probably explained to his the philosophy of how he wants the team to work (which everyone seems to be on board with: nobody is bigger than the team), that it is the right thing to do for an organization like the Habs to not try to break the bank. Is he worried about a career-ending injury? Is there some top level car he won't be able to buy? Just play two years at a significantly higher pay grade after your ELC, something most are not able to do to the tune of 3.5. (Although I suspect it's more like 5-5.5.)

PK is getting lots of money, even in a two year deal, he won't run out. The Habs have other players to pay/save for. They CAN run out. He's getting a good deal. Take it, play like a pro, make big coin in two years (that is IF you live up to it). It really is the fact that the rest of our D is supposedly weak that makes him seem like superman. I can't stand that he's not playing tonight, but it's really him that I blame for that. Yeah, PK, it's a business, thus you should understand more than anyone what Bergevin has to deal with - an entire team, not just now, but for the future as well. Make it to the All-Star game, then demand All-Star money.

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01-19-2013, 01:36 AM
  #685
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Make it to the All-Star game, then demand All-Star money.
He made the weekend at least.

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01-19-2013, 01:40 AM
  #686
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Is that the figure he's being offered? If so, then I can see this being a situation where Bergevin should compromise given he's getting the 2-year deal. I have a feeling that he is offering more. Even IF Subban is super great blah blah blah, this step in his career did not have to warrant such a focus on the money. His first non-ELC contract really shouldn't be a monster. It's pretty ridiculous the more I think about it. What is the harm in playing the 2 years and then asking for a ton more for longer? What are those few million early in your career going to do for you? Not trying to tell PK what to do with his life, simply pointing out that we need to put things in perspective -- he just finished 2 years, Bergevin has probably explained to his the philosophy of how he wants the team to work (which everyone seems to be on board with: nobody is bigger than the team), that it is the right thing to do for an organization like the Habs to not try to break the bank. Is he worried about a career-ending injury? Is there some top level car he won't be able to buy? Just play two years at a significantly higher pay grade after your ELC, something most are not able to do to the tune of 3.5. (Although I suspect it's more like 5-5.5.)

PK is getting lots of money, even in a two year deal, he won't run out. The Habs have other players to pay/save for. They CAN run out. He's getting a good deal. Take it, play like a pro, make big coin in two years (that is IF you live up to it). It really is the fact that the rest of our D is supposedly weak that makes him seem like superman. I can't stand that he's not playing tonight, but it's really him that I blame for that. Yeah, PK, it's a business, thus you should understand more than anyone what Bergevin has to deal with - an entire team, not just now, but for the future as well. Make it to the All-Star game, then demand All-Star money.
especially since those two years are in reality a year in a half

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Old
01-19-2013, 02:05 AM
  #687
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Originally Posted by habtastic View Post
Is that the figure he's being offered? If so, then I can see this being a situation where Bergevin should compromise given he's getting the 2-year deal. I have a feeling that he is offering more. Even IF Subban is super great blah blah blah, this step in his career did not have to warrant such a focus on the money. His first non-ELC contract really shouldn't be a monster. It's pretty ridiculous the more I think about it. What is the harm in playing the 2 years and then asking for a ton more for longer? What are those few million early in your career going to do for you? Not trying to tell PK what to do with his life, simply pointing out that we need to put things in perspective -- he just finished 2 years, Bergevin has probably explained to his the philosophy of how he wants the team to work (which everyone seems to be on board with: nobody is bigger than the team), that it is the right thing to do for an organization like the Habs to not try to break the bank. Is he worried about a career-ending injury? Is there some top level car he won't be able to buy? Just play two years at a significantly higher pay grade after your ELC, something most are not able to do to the tune of 3.5. (Although I suspect it's more like 5-5.5.)

PK is getting lots of money, even in a two year deal, he won't run out. The Habs have other players to pay/save for. They CAN run out. He's getting a good deal. Take it, play like a pro, make big coin in two years (that is IF you live up to it). It really is the fact that the rest of our D is supposedly weak that makes him seem like superman. I can't stand that he's not playing tonight, but it's really him that I blame for that. Yeah, PK, it's a business, thus you should understand more than anyone what Bergevin has to deal with - an entire team, not just now, but for the future as well. Make it to the All-Star game, then demand All-Star money.



3 years ago they dream about playing in nhl and now they want to win more than 6 millions or they dont want to play....

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Old
01-19-2013, 03:57 AM
  #688
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3 years ago they dream about playing in nhl and now they want to win more than 6 millions or they dont want to play....
U said my thoughts excatly bro. Celebrity status and bling bling is different than be all star player.

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01-19-2013, 06:09 AM
  #689
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Both are great offensively, I do agree edler has had some better players around him, but Edler has a offensive presence I think PK misses, at this point.

That being said, PK has the chance to put up 60 points a year if he plays 2 his potential.
For all his greatness, has Edler scored 14 goals in a season ?

He's 3 years older than PK. At the same age I think PK has proven more, offensively or otherwise. Especially if you consider the strength of opposition and the quality of both players linemates. Edler's big seasons came at the age PK is at right now.


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Old
01-19-2013, 06:16 AM
  #690
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For all his greatness, has Edler scored 14 goals in a season ?

He's 3 years older than PK. At the same age I think PK has proven more, offensively or otherwise. Especially if you consider the strength of opposition and the quality of both players linemates.
You are not biased at all.

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01-19-2013, 06:29 AM
  #691
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You are not biased at all.
I knew people would miss the "at the same age" part. So I made it clearer with this part I added :

Edler's big seasons came at the age PK is at right now.

Also, those are all facts :

1-PK despite being 3 years younger has scored 14 goals in a season which Edler has never done and is supposedly miles ahead offensively.
2-Edler is on the second pairing, plays less, against lesser opposition
3-Edler plays with much better linemates.

And this is subjective but I can only imagine the differences if you swapped Edler and Subban. Edler would not be able to handle Subban's duties defensively playing shutdown against other teams top players. Subban would likely produce much more than 35ish pts if he was feeding the Sedins in their prime on the PP who were #1-2 in scoring.

Are these ridiculous claims ?

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01-19-2013, 06:50 AM
  #692
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1 - Nobody in this entire thread DOESN'T think that PK Subban is a true impact player with more to come. We ALL think that. That doesn't mean he deserves what (allegedly) he is asking for, which is close to Doughty type money and length.

2 - Bergy is holding firm on a figure that is (again allegedly) VERY reasonable. It's not like he's offering peanuts, he just doesn't want to give a player, ANY player an inflated contract cuz they have leverage. There's a poster on HIO who claims to have some inside info (it's in the comments in the article about Price's mask) where (if you believe him, and I kind of do) that Bergevin respects the Habs, the history and the greatness too much to bow to a single player who is trying to ask for more than what he deserves. I totally respect that attitude. YES - it could hurt the team now, BUT, it will hurt the team much more in the grand scheme if he gives PK a 6.5 for 6 years deal.

3 - I assume you realize this scenario is absurd.

I do agree that if PK agreed to 5 or even 5.5 for 6 years, that's a deal you should make, although I don't know whether Meehan is willing to go for that. He seems to be trying to replicate the Doughty situation and in a market where the fan pressure is added leverage.

Scenario 4:

PK doesn't play (you think he'll enjoy that?) until he agrees to a 2 year deal in which he is forced to work his butt off and show that he is what he thinks he's worth, and then gets the big bucks. Why this is such a problem for PK, I don't understand. He loves hockey, he supposedly loves the Habs and Montreal. What...is...the problem? Probably Meehan. This situation sucks hard and I don't like it more than you that things are the way they are, but IMO as much as Bergy can be criticized for limiting the offer to two years, PK can be criticized for not taking it. These threads have made him out to be the best D in the NHL, which he is not. He IS, however critical to our team so I hope this lockout-esque drama is over soon. Unfortunately, it looks like it's going to drag on into the season, thus ruining this one for us, but possibly saving future seasons. Hope I'm wrong and they meet half way.
I agree 100% with your 4th scenario. PK should signs a lucrative 2 year cobtract ~4-4.5 million, much more than MDZ, so he can feel good about that. Then his job is to rack up 60+ points two years in a row and displace a hopefully healthy Markov as #1D, both of which he has not done yet. If he does that then he's the real deal and he busts the bank getting Weber and Suter money for his long-term contract. If a ~4 million 2 year offer is not on the table right now, then Bergevin is mishandling the situation. If it is then Subban and his agent or not being reasonable. The problem is none of us really knows what's on the table on either side.

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01-19-2013, 06:55 AM
  #693
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Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
I knew people would miss the "at the same age" part. So I made it clearer with this part I added :

Edler's big seasons came at the age PK is at right now.

Also, those are all facts :

1-PK despite being 3 years younger has scored 14 goals in a season which Edler has never done and is supposedly miles ahead offensively.
2-Edler is on the second pairing, plays less, against lesser opposition
3-Edler plays with much better linemates.

And this is subjective but I can only imagine the differences if you swapped Edler and Subban. Edler would not be able to handle Subban's duties defensively playing shutdown against other teams top players. Subban would likely produce much more than 35ish pts if he was feeding the Sedins in their prime on the PP who were #1-2 in scoring.

Are these ridiculous claims ?
You're trying too hard to prove your point and you look ridiculous in the process.
Everybody loves PK but you don't need to put him on a pedestal. You're contributing dangerously to his endlessly growing ego

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01-19-2013, 06:58 AM
  #694
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Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
I knew people would miss the "at the same age" part. So I made it clearer with this part I added :

Edler's big seasons came at the age PK is at right now.

Also, those are all facts :

1-PK despite being 3 years younger has scored 14 goals in a season which Edler has never done and is supposedly miles ahead offensively.
2-Edler is on the second pairing, plays less, against lesser opposition
3-Edler plays with much better linemates.

And this is subjective but I can only imagine the differences if you swapped Edler and Subban. Edler would not be able to handle Subban's duties defensively playing shutdown against other teams top players. Subban would likely produce much more than 35ish pts if he was feeding the Sedins in their prime on the PP who were #1-2 in scoring.

Are these ridiculous claims ?
What was Elder's second contract $/term? 3.25/4 years. I wonder if this has been offered to Subban.

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01-19-2013, 06:58 AM
  #695
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6 years, 5 million per.

Subban has proven to be a fixture on our team we cannot leave on the shelf if we want to be competitive. He hasn't proven to be a superstar yet - so let's not go overboard with the amount.

4 million would be a steal for 6 years. 6 millions would be abusive. I think 5 million is respectable. I know some people don't want a bridge contract, but if Subban is willing to commit himself with this team long-term, let him. He is the only prospect of past years who genuinely proven himself by the end of his ELC.

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01-19-2013, 07:01 AM
  #696
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Is that the figure he's being offered? If so, then I can see this being a situation where Bergevin should compromise given he's getting the 2-year deal. I have a feeling that he is offering more. Even IF Subban is super great blah blah blah, this step in his career did not have to warrant such a focus on the money. His first non-ELC contract really shouldn't be a monster. It's pretty ridiculous the more I think about it. What is the harm in playing the 2 years and then asking for a ton more for longer? What are those few million early in your career going to do for you? Not trying to tell PK what to do with his life, simply pointing out that we need to put things in perspective -- he just finished 2 years, Bergevin has probably explained to his the philosophy of how he wants the team to work (which everyone seems to be on board with: nobody is bigger than the team), that it is the right thing to do for an organization like the Habs to not try to break the bank. Is he worried about a career-ending injury? Is there some top level car he won't be able to buy? Just play two years at a significantly higher pay grade after your ELC, something most are not able to do to the tune of 3.5. (Although I suspect it's more like 5-5.5.)

PK is getting lots of money, even in a two year deal, he won't run out. The Habs have other players to pay/save for. They CAN run out. He's getting a good deal. Take it, play like a pro, make big coin in two years (that is IF you live up to it). It really is the fact that the rest of our D is supposedly weak that makes him seem like superman. I can't stand that he's not playing tonight, but it's really him that I blame for that. Yeah, PK, it's a business, thus you should understand more than anyone what Bergevin has to deal with - an entire team, not just now, but for the future as well. Make it to the All-Star game, then demand All-Star money.
Great post. Pretty much sums up what I think.

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01-19-2013, 07:08 AM
  #697
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Ok. So a player that is supposedly miles ahead of PK. Puts up similar stats to him. While playing on a way better team than the Habs. I'm not saying that Edler is bad, or that he's a God. Nor am I saying that PK's a God or terrible. I'm just stating the obvious. That PK and Edler are very similar. And people can't really say that Edler is by far superior. Because the numbers don't lie. You don't need to follow a team throughout an entire season to come to that conclusion. Sure stats don't tell the whole story, just like it would for a defensive D. So one may say that Edler could be way better than PK. I'm sure he has more experience, he's had more time in the pros. But PK has been really good for us ever since he joined the Habs, all things considered, unfortunately people only remember his mistakes.
I agree with this. The only difference is that Edler took a bridge contract 3.25/4 years before this 5/6 year contract. He's 3 years older than PK and has played reliably for 3 more years. That's worth something IMHO.

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01-19-2013, 07:09 AM
  #698
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Is that the figure he's being offered? If so, then I can see this being a situation where Bergevin should compromise given he's getting the 2-year deal. I have a feeling that he is offering more. Even IF Subban is super great blah blah blah, this step in his career did not have to warrant such a focus on the money. His first non-ELC contract really shouldn't be a monster. It's pretty ridiculous the more I think about it. What is the harm in playing the 2 years and then asking for a ton more for longer? What are those few million early in your career going to do for you? Not trying to tell PK what to do with his life, simply pointing out that we need to put things in perspective -- he just finished 2 years, Bergevin has probably explained to his the philosophy of how he wants the team to work (which everyone seems to be on board with: nobody is bigger than the team), that it is the right thing to do for an organization like the Habs to not try to break the bank. Is he worried about a career-ending injury? Is there some top level car he won't be able to buy? Just play two years at a significantly higher pay grade after your ELC, something most are not able to do to the tune of 3.5. (Although I suspect it's more like 5-5.5.)

PK is getting lots of money, even in a two year deal, he won't run out. The Habs have other players to pay/save for. They CAN run out. He's getting a good deal. Take it, play like a pro, make big coin in two years (that is IF you live up to it). It really is the fact that the rest of our D is supposedly weak that makes him seem like superman. I can't stand that he's not playing tonight, but it's really him that I blame for that. Yeah, PK, it's a business, thus you should understand more than anyone what Bergevin has to deal with - an entire team, not just now, but for the future as well. Make it to the All-Star game, then demand All-Star money.
Having a career ending injury with no long term security. You answered the question yourself.

I know there are rumors and such but nobody really knows the deal being offered. If PK is looking for something long term then I don't blame him. And on the other hand I can't see why a long term deal is bad for the Habs given the caliber of the player.

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01-19-2013, 07:10 AM
  #699
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I agree with this. The only difference is that Edler took a bridge contract 3.25/4 years before this 5/6 year contract. He's 3 years older than PK and has played reliably for 3 more years. That's worth something IMHO.
In term of probability, how would you assess PK's potential to show he's better than Edler in the next 2 years?

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01-19-2013, 07:11 AM
  #700
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6 years, 5 million per.

Subban has proven to be a fixture on our team we cannot leave on the shelf if we want to be competitive. He hasn't proven to be a superstar yet - so let's not go overboard with the amount.

4 million would be a steal for 6 years. 6 millions would be abusive. I think 5 million is respectable. I know some people don't want a bridge contract, but if Subban is willing to commit himself with this team long-term, let him. He is the only prospect of past years who genuinely proven himself by the end of his ELC.
Considering the Edler contract, that is a little but high, but not insanely high. I can see this being a problem though considering PK is younger than Edler and only on his second contract with 3 years less experience in the league. 4.5 / 6 years would seem more consistent but I still think a shorter contract benefits Subban best.

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