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P.K. Subban Thread - Mk III - Unsigned Edition

View Poll Results: Who should break first
Bergevin 61 25.00%
Subban 183 75.00%
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Old
01-19-2013, 10:53 AM
  #751
Dr Gonzo
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This bridge contract crap is ridiculous. It's a flashback to the Gainey era of not negotiating during the season. It's similar to me in silliness and uselessness.
.
It's great if the team can convince the player to sign one, but with higher end talent (Skinner, Kane, Eberle, Karlsson, Doughty, Hall....) you don't always have that luxury.

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01-19-2013, 10:58 AM
  #752
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Originally Posted by Dr Gonzo View Post
It's great if the team can convince the player to sign one, but with higher end talent (Skinner, Kane, Eberle, Karlsson, Doughty, Hall....) you don't always have that luxury.
Teams are more than happy to ink these guys to long term deal to avoid the chance that they get offer sheeted. Or that, for some reason, their contract finishes on a sour note and they decide they don't want to sign a long term deal at the end of the bridge contract and hold out for a 1 year deal. Also, since it's after their ELC, they are not quite as proven and you can get them cheaper than after a bridge contract. It's really good for both parties. The hawks, oilers, canes, sens, kings, etc jumped at the chance to ink these guys long term out of their ELCs. The hold out with Doughty was money.

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01-19-2013, 11:01 AM
  #753
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Like when Doughty held out with the Kings then went on to win the Stanley Cup? It sucks that it's happening but it's not the first time that a player has held out and it won't be the last. Unfortunately for us fans, all we can do is sit and wait.
Doughty didn't holdout during the season though. He was signed on September 30th, a week before the Kings played their first game.

This situation is just not good and I'm starting to be terrified I'll wake up some morning to the news of Subban being dealt for 50 cents on the dollar with Bergevin telling us how he wants ''character'' people here.

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01-19-2013, 11:04 AM
  #754
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Doughty didn't holdout during the season though. He was signed on September 30th, a week before the Kings played their first game.

This situation is just not good and I'm starting to be terrified I'll wake up some morning to the news of Subban being dealt for 50 cents on the dollar with Bergevin telling us how he wants ''character'' people here.
That would be a nightmare
If Bergevin trade PK for nothing short of a young superstar, he should be canned!

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01-19-2013, 11:11 AM
  #755
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Doughty didn't holdout during the season though. He was signed on September 30th, a week before the Kings played their first game.

This situation is just not good and I'm starting to be terrified I'll wake up some morning to the news of Subban being dealt for 50 cents on the dollar with Bergevin telling us how he wants ''character'' people here.
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That would be a nightmare
If Bergevin trade PK for nothing short of a young superstar, he should be canned!
Relax guys, Gauthier was fired months ago. I would hope that the open hiring process that resulted in Bergevin being hired delved into modern day scenarios like this.

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01-19-2013, 11:12 AM
  #756
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Not having PK signed for opening night is inexcusable for both sides.

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01-19-2013, 11:13 AM
  #757
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Not having PK signed for opening night is inexcusable for both sides.

say that to Dallas and Jamie Benn

not easy negotiations

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01-19-2013, 11:15 AM
  #758
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Originally Posted by Marc the Habs Fan View Post
Doughty didn't holdout during the season though. He was signed on September 30th, a week before the Kings played their first game.

This situation is just not good and I'm starting to be terrified I'll wake up some morning to the news of Subban being dealt for 50 cents on the dollar with Bergevin telling us how he wants ''character'' people here.
Bergevin's prowess at trading is an unknown variable at this point and would be scary if it came down to dealing Subban. If he traded him for another d-man he would invariably lose that deal. I would be ok with him going to Columbus for Nikitin and their first rounder but that is an unlikely scenario. The best strategy in dealing him would be for a top young center like Huberdeau +.

I would prefer that we sign P.K. but this really is damning eveidence about his character and commitment to winning. Even though his teammates understand the process, I am sure many of them are less than impressed with Subban right now. Every game missed is almost twice as important as a game missed in a full season. Even if we sign him in the next few days, he has not played anywhere since last season and will almost surely be a liability when he returns. I wonder how Price and Pacioretty feel about this when they are busting their humps to win games while Subban feels he is entitled to better deals than they signed coming off of their respective ELCs.

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01-19-2013, 11:17 AM
  #759
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Yahoo! auto-drafted Subban for my pool, so now he HAS to sign...

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01-19-2013, 11:19 AM
  #760
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Originally Posted by Marc the Habs Fan View Post
Doughty didn't holdout during the season though. He was signed on September 30th, a week before the Kings played their first game.

This situation is just not good and I'm starting to be terrified I'll wake up some morning to the news of Subban being dealt for 50 cents on the dollar with Bergevin telling us how he wants ''character'' people here.
I can't think of a good reason for what Bergevin is doing.

Let's list some possible explanations :

1-He thinks Subban has a bad attitude.

If that's the case, that's silly because young people mature over time. Case in point : Chelios in Mtl. It's also silly because you will always find a taker for a player like that on the market, so you can trade the guy easily. There's no risk involved here. Not a good reason not to ink Subban long term.

2-He wants to teach Subban a lesson, show everyone he's the boss

That can be a good thing, but I wouldn't have done it with Subban. You have to pick your battles.

3-For the purpose of instituting a mandatory bridge contract after ELC.

This is stupid because there are enough rules in the CBA that you don't create more for yourself. These type of rules have certain benefits but every case is unique and you can't blindly follow a rule and expect the benefits to outweigh the downsides every time. IF you have Crosby on your roster, you don't let him hold out for a silly rule like that. Obviously Subban isn't on Crosby's level of importance but I'm just saying that rules like this should not be blindly followed.

4-He just doesn't think Subban is that good

That's the scariest possibility. If that's the case expect more nonsensical crap like that until habs decline further and Bergevin is fired.

5-Subban is holding out for 6.5M+/year over 5+ years

I strongly doubt it. He might be wanting 5.5M-6M though. But I can't see him ask for more.

That's about it.. I can't think of a rational explanation for what's going on.

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Old
01-19-2013, 11:19 AM
  #761
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Give him the Edler contract but for 8 years.

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01-19-2013, 11:20 AM
  #762
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I blame both for this stupid result. This should have never happen. You either had to sign him. Or if you feel so much like the player wants to destroy your dollar structure, well you trade him. You don't let a situation evolves the way it did. Bergevin's rookie work at best, pretty surprise though to see that neither Carrière or Dudley were able to make it work.

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01-19-2013, 11:20 AM
  #763
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I agree, MB should sign PK for 7-8 years right now for 5M-5.5M. GET THIS DONE BERGEVIN.
would you satisfy one player and make 15 angry? i don't think so....

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01-19-2013, 11:25 AM
  #764
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Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
I can't think of a good reason for what Bergevin is doing.

Let's list some possible explanations :

1-He thinks Subban has a bad attitude.

If that's the case, that's silly because young people mature over time. Case in point : Chelios in Mtl. It's also silly because you will always find a taker for a player like that on the market, so you can trade the guy easily. There's no risk involved here. Not a good reason not to ink Subban long term.

2-He wants to teach Subban a lesson, show everyone he's the boss

That can be a good thing, but I wouldn't have done it with Subban. You have to pick your battles.

3-For the purpose of instituting a mandatory bridge contract after ELC.

This is stupid because there are enough rules in the CBA that you don't create more for yourself. These type of rules have certain benefits but every case is unique and you can't blindly follow a rule and expect the benefits to outweigh the downsides every time. IF you have Crosby on your roster, you don't let him hold out for a silly rule like that. Obviously Subban isn't on Crosby's level of importance but I'm just saying that rules like this should not be blindly followed.

4-He just doesn't think Subban is that good

That's the scariest possibility. If that's the case expect more nonsensical crap like that until habs decline further and Bergevin is fired.

5-Subban is holding out for 6.5M+/year over 5+ years

I strongly doubt it. He might be wanting 5.5M-6M though. But I can't see him ask for more.

That's about it.. I can't think of a rational explanation for what's going on.
The only thing missing to support most of your points is the actual demands of PK and Bergevin's offer. You seem to think Bergevin is lowballing PK but I am not sure this is the case. You also don;thave a good argument of the lenght is the only issue. Why would that big that big an issue for Subban if the $ amount is acceptable? Certainyl not reason enough not miss the start of the season. There was a nice article in La Presse today where Georges sais that he did not know why this was such an issue for PK. He also wanted a long term contract and had to sign a one-year deal before his current contract. Also said that 95% of players have to go through that. It put things n perspective for me.

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01-19-2013, 11:29 AM
  #765
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The only thing missing to support most of your points is the actual demands of PK and Bergevin's offer. You seem to think Bergevin is lowballing PK but I am not sure this is the case. You also don;thave a good argument of the lenght is the only issue. Why would that big that big an issue for Subban if the $ amount is acceptable? Certainyl not reason enough not miss the start of the season. There was a nice article in La Presse today where Georges sais that he did not know why this was such an issue for PK. He also wanted a long term contract and had to sign a one-year deal before his current contract. Also said that 95% of players have to go through that. It put things n perspective for me.
Exactly.

Subban can pay his dues like the rest of the players on the team.

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01-19-2013, 11:31 AM
  #766
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On Cyberpresse this morning in an article from Richard Labbée here is what Josh Gorges mention about the PK situation:

Le défenseur Josh Gorges ne sait pas trop de quelle manière Subban sera reçu lorsqu'il aura enfin son nouveau contrat en poche.



«Je ne suis pas sûr, a-t-il dit. On verra. C'est dur à comprendre... Le but du hockey, c'est de gagner en équipe. Si on a du succès, c'est à cause de l'équipe.



«Je ne voudrais pas être dans cette position. C'est certain qu'un joueur essaie toujours d'avoir la meilleure entente possible. Un gars dans sa situation n'a pas beaucoup de droits quant à la négociation, alors il doit dire oui à un contrat de transition, en attendant de mériter le droit de négocier à la hausse par la suite. Je pense que 95 % des joueurs sont déjà passés par là.»


Fast translation Josh doesn't know how PK will be receive when he comes back, it's hard to understand, the goal of hockey is to win as a team, if we have success it's because of the team, i would'nt to be in PK's position, player try to have the best possible deal but a guy in is situation does not have much choice, he should say yes to a transition contract and wait to negociate for a higher pay day later on, 95% of the player went that way....

I love PK but it seems it is not the case for everyone in the locker room, which i don't think was the case with Doughty, Bergevin doesn't seem to have a choice, he needs to stay is ground in risk of losing credibility with the rest of the team....

i think PK support in the locker room is getting thinner everyday, a lot of veteran seems to resent him. I'm not sure this story is going to end well....

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01-19-2013, 11:31 AM
  #767
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The only thing missing to support most of your points is the actual demands of PK and Bergevin's offer. You seem to think Bergevin is lowballing PK but I am not sure this is the case. You also don;thave a good argument of the lenght is the only issue. Why would that big that big an issue for Subban if the $ amount is acceptable? Certainyl not reason enough not miss the start of the season. There was a nice article in La Presse today where Georges sais that he did not know why this was such an issue for PK. He also wanted a long term contract and had to sign a one-year deal before his current contract. Also said that 95% of players have to go through that. It put things n perspective for me.
In all honesty, those are pretty bold remarks by Gorges. The guy just got an awfully well paid contract and now gives some lessons to how the "team" is important? And Gorges's situation is in no way comparable to Subban. Gorges is not the player that PK is. Of course he accepted a 1-year contract.

While I would have also appreciated to see PK accepting a 2-year contract, he also has the right for 5. What I don't understand it's how it's impossible to split in the middle.

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01-19-2013, 11:32 AM
  #768
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Exactly.

Subban can pay his dues like the rest of the players on the team.
Agreed, that's why I really think his teammates are not impressed with him right now. It seems PK either wants to bypass paying his dues.

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01-19-2013, 11:35 AM
  #769
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would you satisfy one player and make 15 angry? i don't think so....
15 angry? How so? Oh 'cause Subban will make them win more than lose? So they'd still be angry at him for getting that contract? This is Montreal. People will be all over the PK situation if we don't win. We don't have a team to win every game. It will get ugly.

So what will happen? Bergevin will either have to pay MORE than what PK is asking now. Or he will have to trade him for not a lot since every team will know about our problems to sign him.

You have to sign him. Negotiate, accept the term and negotiate the ****ing money instead.

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01-19-2013, 11:36 AM
  #770
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The only thing missing to support most of your points is the actual demands of PK and Bergevin's offer. You seem to think Bergevin is lowballing PK but I am not sure this is the case. You also don;thave a good argument of the lenght is the only issue. Why would that big that big an issue for Subban if the $ amount is acceptable? Certainyl not reason enough not miss the start of the season. There was a nice article in La Presse today where Georges sais that he did not know why this was such an issue for PK. He also wanted a long term contract and had to sign a one-year deal before his current contract. Also said that 95% of players have to go through that. It put things n perspective for me.
See the comments about PK from Gorges are pretty bad for team chemistry. They know that him holding out is hurting their team and I bet they are none too happy about it. I understand Price, Pacioretty and Gorges situations are not exactly the same as PK's (I am of the opinion that PK has proven more in his short time in the NHL), just think how they are feeling right now about this. Human nature will dictate that they will have issues with him when he comes back to the team - although they may be fleeting, still there will be issues to deal with that should/could have been avoided.

It's all just business though - that's what is so sad about all of this crap, including the lockout. There used to be a larger fraternity of players willing to put the team before themselves. I don't see that very much anymore at all. Or for that matter in regular day to day life. It's all about the "ME FIRST"

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01-19-2013, 11:38 AM
  #771
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In all honesty, those are pretty bold remarks by Gorges. The guy just got an awfully well paid contract and now gives some lessons to how the "team" is important? And Gorges's situation is in no way comparable to Subban. Gorges is not the player that PK is. Of course he accepted a 1-year contract.

While I would have also appreciated to see PK accepting a 2-year contract, he also has the right for 5. What I don't understand it's how it's impossible to split in the middle.
Gorges got a nice contract, that's not the issue. I think he's a leader in the locker room and his statement does not only reflects his personal views. Also, as a UFA, 3.9 for a top-4 D man is not that much of an overpayment. He also took a one year deal because he was coming back from knee surgery. He worked hard to come back, had a good season and deserved his latest contract even if probably 500k too much.

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01-19-2013, 11:38 AM
  #772
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Teams are more than happy to ink these guys to long term deal to avoid the chance that they get offer sheeted. Or that, for some reason, their contract finishes on a sour note and they decide they don't want to sign a long term deal at the end of the bridge contract and hold out for a 1 year deal. Also, since it's after their ELC, they are not quite as proven and you can get them cheaper than after a bridge contract. It's really good for both parties. The hawks, oilers, canes, sens, kings, etc jumped at the chance to ink these guys long term out of their ELCs. The hold out with Doughty was money.
This is the biggest thing for me. One of the bigger arguments against signing Subban to a long term is that Bergevin has to look out for the team's salary cap.

If we give PK the bridge deal that some people want he gets, say, 2 yrs/$8M. If PK continues to improve and develop, not a huge stretch, then the next contract will be 6 yr and starting at $6M per if not a lot more. If PK, based on his current resume, is willing to take 7-8 years at 5-5.5M per then take it and run. We do not need the cap space that badly this year and next, but after that, as the team gets better, the extra cap space saved will make a big difference.

At worst, PK's prime is what he is right now and if he progresses not at all, in two years he'll get, and deserve, 6 yr/$30M and nobody should bat an eye. We might as well just pay the man and get it over with. Downside risk is very minimal and chance of getting a bargain are decent to good.

I'll also share the feeling raised by others, that for a team that struggles and has to overpay to lure UFA, that it's baffling that the problem here is that the player wants to commit long term and it's the team that is balking.

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01-19-2013, 11:38 AM
  #773
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In all honesty, those are pretty bold remarks by Gorges. The guy just got an awfully well paid contract and now gives some lessons to how the "team" is important? And Gorges's situation is in no way comparable to Subban. Gorges is not the player that PK is. Of course he accepted a 1-year contract.

While I would have also appreciated to see PK accepting a 2-year contract, he also has the right for 5. What I don't understand it's how it's impossible to split in the middle.
what are you talking about Willis??? Gorges 1 year contract was after is injury, before is UFA status, not a bridge contract after an ELC.... PK may be better than Gorges, Pacioretty or a lot of other players, but he's not bigger than the team or the game....

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01-19-2013, 11:38 AM
  #774
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Doughty didn't holdout during the season though. He was signed on September 30th, a week before the Kings played their first game.

This situation is just not good and I'm starting to be terrified I'll wake up some morning to the news of Subban being dealt for 50 cents on the dollar with Bergevin telling us how he wants ''character'' people here.
Seems like a scary scenario in that it's totally applicable and probable.

I don't know what to think here, he's our star player, home grown and a lifelong Habs fan... Sign him. Bergevin already massively overpaid Price, there isn't a leg to stand on here with PK.

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01-19-2013, 11:41 AM
  #775
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Agreed, that's why I really think his teammates are not impressed with him right now. It seems PK either wants to bypass paying his dues.
Agree with and Estimated_Prophet, remember the new Canadiens' management team, Bergevin, Rick Dudley, Scott Mellanby, Larry Carriere, all character team players, and as much potential as PK has, he has put himself above the team, and this has been noted by not only management but also former NHL players.
Management knows the feeling in the room, the players can't be happy with PK at this point, and one last note, the young Montreal fans once again have overrated one of their prospects, he's good, but, he's no Doughty, Claude Giroux or Tyler Sequin.
PK may get his money, but it may not be in Montreal.

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