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P.K. Subban Thread - Mk III - Unsigned Edition

View Poll Results: Who should break first
Bergevin 61 25.00%
Subban 183 75.00%
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Old
01-19-2013, 10:42 AM
  #776
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
15 angry? How so? Oh 'cause Subban will make them win more than lose? So they'd still be angry at him for getting that contract? This is Montreal. People will be all over the PK situation if we don't win. We don't have a team to win every game. It will get ugly.

So what will happen? Bergevin will either have to pay MORE than what PK is asking now. Or he will have to trade him for not a lot since every team will know about our problems to sign him.

You have to sign him. Negotiate, accept the term and negotiate the ****ing money instead.
Accept it, it seems a lot of player on this team doesn't like PK Subban, can live with the player, can't stand the guy, and if your core cannot handle having the guy around for what ever reason, well that's it.... Gionta, Cole, Gorges, Plekanec, seem to not be to keen of PK, that is definetly not helping the situation if true

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01-19-2013, 10:46 AM
  #777
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The only thing missing to support most of your points is the actual demands of PK and Bergevin's offer. You seem to think Bergevin is lowballing PK but I am not sure this is the case. You also don;thave a good argument of the lenght is the only issue. Why would that big that big an issue for Subban if the $ amount is acceptable? Certainyl not reason enough not miss the start of the season. There was a nice article in La Presse today where Georges sais that he did not know why this was such an issue for PK. He also wanted a long term contract and had to sign a one-year deal before his current contract. Also said that 95% of players have to go through that. It put things n perspective for me.
Gorges was coming off a season ending knee injury which required surgery. So unless PG had been fired and replaced by Jim Beattie I'd say a getting a 6-year deal at that time wasn't going to be in the cards.

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01-19-2013, 10:50 AM
  #778
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Gorges was coming off a season ending knee injury which required surgery. So unless PG had been fired and replaced by Jim Beattie I'd say a getting a 6-year deal at that time wasn't going to be in the cards.
That's true. I guess you agree they rewarded Gorges with a nice contract for coming back strong.

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01-19-2013, 10:52 AM
  #779
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Originally Posted by HABsurde View Post
Accept it, it seems a lot of player on this team doesn't like PK Subban, can live with the player, can't stand the guy, and if your core cannot handle having the guy around for what ever reason, well that's it.... Gionta, Cole, Gorges, Plekanec, seem to not be to keen of PK, that is definetly not helping the situation if true
Well then, they can enjoy not having the P.K. distractions while playing on the worst or 2nd worst team in the East. Which is what this team is without Subban.

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01-19-2013, 10:52 AM
  #780
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01-19-2013, 10:53 AM
  #781
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Originally Posted by HABsurde View Post
what are you talking about Willis??? Gorges 1 year contract was after is injury, before is UFA status, not a bridge contract after an ELC.... PK may be better than Gorges, Pacioretty or a lot of other players, but he's not bigger than the team or the game....
The team...the game...guess what? In any team, and any game, some players are paid more than others. Gorges use the "I wanted long-term and settled for short-term" excuse might work but mostly with guys with no leverage. Not the case for PK.

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01-19-2013, 11:00 AM
  #782
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Originally Posted by HABsurde View Post
Accept it, it seems a lot of player on this team doesn't like PK Subban, can live with the player, can't stand the guy, and if your core cannot handle having the guy around for what ever reason, well that's it.... Gionta, Cole, Gorges, Plekanec, seem to not be to keen of PK, that is definetly not helping the situation if true
Your point makes no sense based on what we're seeing now. So the non-signing happens because they can't live with the guy? And what if he signs? They will then be able to live with him? If true that he's such a pain in the ass, trade him. But trade him in a way that you will get the greatest return for him. Yet, while he might not be the easiest guy to live with it, I have way more problems with the leadership of this team if it's indeed true. I know a couple of vets in this league that would shut PK up and knock him out if needed so he'd quiet down. In here, they just dislike the way he conducts himself, well show him how it has to be done.

And you had a lot of examples of that this week. When you heard our vets talking about how great Galchenyuk was but mostly his ATTITUDE. The fact that he was focuses, DIDN'T TAKE ALL THE PLACE, WAS QUIET and so on...Geez, we don't need solely choir boys in a locker room. If the guy talks loud and show off more, if he ends up winning you games, man up and accept it. But what would this locker room want? A quieter locker room in a losing fashion?

Again, trade him if he's THAT bad. But it's already too late based on his value diminuish minute after minute because not only teams will be afraid of his demands and his attidue but because teams will know that the Habs might have another "Patrick Roy" in their hands, meaning that they won't have a choice to trade him.

We're about to have another Halak-Price problem but it's even worst 'cause this time.....there's no Price. Subban is alone in his skillset THROUGHOUT the actual team AND the prospect pool.

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01-19-2013, 11:00 AM
  #783
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No matter how you slice this, PK Subban is clearly not impressing his team-mates at all. Again, ofcourse it takes two to make a deal. But clearly, this is about terms, not money. Why would it be so criminal for PK to accept a "bridge" contract? He is not 30 years old, PK Subban will make his money. He would not be sacrificing anything accepting a bridge contract.

Carey Price could have absolutely killed the team when negotiating his new contract after Halak was traded, but he clearly took a two year deal to prove he was at a netminder. And the team paid him handsomely this summer as a reward for his work and his potential, so again, why can't PK Understand that?

The players are seemingly on Bergevin's side, I am too. I am very dissapointed in PK. PK Subban is not our best player, come on people! I'd say that Price, Plekanec, Max Pac and maybe Cole (and possibly Markov)are better than him right now, ofcourse that could change this year.

Pk is doing anything but help the ideas that he isn't a good teammate/strong character guy.

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01-19-2013, 11:02 AM
  #784
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at Josh Gorges. Preaching PK should sign a contract and play while Gorges himself was a hardliner and criticized Hamrlik for wanting to play. And Gorges also had a signing bonus tucked in his back pocket.

Personally I'd rather trade Gorges and give PK what he wants. PK is a unique character and as a fan he's never shown or said anything that indicates he's not a team player. Has he tried to do too much at times - probably because defensively the last few years he has been put in that position.

Comparing this situation to Doughty isn't fair to PK either because a little thing called the lockout got in the way.

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01-19-2013, 11:03 AM
  #785
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Originally Posted by HABsurde View Post
Accept it, it seems a lot of player on this team doesn't like PK Subban, can live with the player, can't stand the guy, and if your core cannot handle having the guy around for what ever reason, well that's it.... Gionta, Cole, Gorges, Plekanec, seem to not be to keen of PK, that is definetly not helping the situation if true
Add Markov to the "no-PK club".

Before the lockout, Bergevin told the press that there were some "things" he wanted to see by himself concerning PK before giving him a long term contract.

We all know that PK is a great player, so one might think those "things" are related to his character. That would explain why Bergevin is so stubborn about the bridge contract.

Edit : Bergevin ne tarit pas d'éloges à l'endroit de Subban, mais il a parlé "de choses qu'il veut voir de plus près".

http://www.rds.ca/canadien/chroniques/348181.html

«Subban est un bon jeune défenseur avec beaucoup de potentiel, mais j'arrive à Montréal et il y a des choses que j'ai besoin de voir, a toutefois indiqué le nouveau DG.

http://www.lapresse.ca/sports/hockey...in-de-voir.php

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01-19-2013, 11:05 AM
  #786
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You guys think PK is going to show up at the Bell Center to watch his teammates play? Or will he stay in Toronto with his agent?
He can stay home for the year at this point

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01-19-2013, 11:08 AM
  #787
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Gorges is one to talk with his nice fat contract.

He's another one like Cole who talks a nice game about team first while being one of the reasons we are only just getting NHL hockey now.

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01-19-2013, 11:11 AM
  #788
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Originally Posted by HABsurde View Post
On Cyberpresse this morning in an article from Richard Labbée here is what Josh Gorges mention about the PK situation:

Le défenseur Josh Gorges ne sait pas trop de quelle manière Subban sera reçu lorsqu'il aura enfin son nouveau contrat en poche.



«Je ne suis pas sûr, a-t-il dit. On verra. C'est dur à comprendre... Le but du hockey, c'est de gagner en équipe. Si on a du succès, c'est à cause de l'équipe.



«Je ne voudrais pas être dans cette position. C'est certain qu'un joueur essaie toujours d'avoir la meilleure entente possible. Un gars dans sa situation n'a pas beaucoup de droits quant à la négociation, alors il doit dire oui à un contrat de transition, en attendant de mériter le droit de négocier à la hausse par la suite. Je pense que 95 % des joueurs sont déjà passés par là.»


Fast translation Josh doesn't know how PK will be receive when he comes back, it's hard to understand, the goal of hockey is to win as a team, if we have success it's because of the team, i would'nt to be in PK's position, player try to have the best possible deal but a guy in is situation does not have much choice, he should say yes to a transition contract and wait to negociate for a higher pay day later on, 95% of the player went that way....

I love PK but it seems it is not the case for everyone in the locker room, which i don't think was the case with Doughty, Bergevin doesn't seem to have a choice, he needs to stay is ground in risk of losing credibility with the rest of the team....

i think PK support in the locker room is getting thinner everyday, a lot of veteran seems to resent him. I'm not sure this story is going to end well....
Gorges ain't the most intelligent of the bunch as evidenced by his comments during the CBA. He's a trooper and all that, but not much brain power there. This doesn't surprise me in the least.

Also, this whole "paying his dues" crap makes zero sense to me. Some players are exceptional and should be treated exceptionally. Gorges say 95% of player have to go through that, and yes that's true. It's because 95% of players haven't played as well as Subban once their ELC ended. Price didn't, Pacioretty didn't, Gorges sure as **** didn't either. And in general, teams who have such players jump at the chance to sign them to long term deals out of their ELC if the players also happen to want a long term deal. But now Bergevin has painted himself in a corner like an idiot. Sigh.

If I were PK, I'd sign whatever bridge contract they want me to sign. Then once that bridge contract is over, I'd ask for a 1-2 year deal to get to UFA and then leave this terrible franchise behind and pick a team that cares about winning more than proving points.

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Gorges is one to talk with his nice fat contract.

He's another one like Cole who talks a nice game about team first while being one of the reasons we are only just getting NHL hockey now.
This.

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01-19-2013, 11:11 AM
  #789
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Your point makes no sense based on what we're seeing now. So the non-signing happens because they can't live with the guy? And what if he signs? They will then be able to live with him? If true that he's such a pain in the ass, trade him. But trade him in a way that you will get the greatest return for him. Yet, while he might not be the easiest guy to live with it, I have way more problems with the leadership of this team if it's indeed true. I know a couple of vets in this league that would shut PK up and knock him out if needed so he'd quiet down. In here, they just dislike the way he conducts himself, well show him how it has to be done.

And you had a lot of examples of that this week. When you heard our vets talking about how great Galchenyuk was but mostly his ATTITUDE. The fact that he was focuses, DIDN'T TAKE ALL THE PLACE, WAS QUIET and so on...Geez, we don't need solely choir boys in a locker room. If the guy talks loud and show off more, if he ends up winning you games, man up and accept it. But what would this locker room want? A quieter locker room in a losing fashion?

Again, trade him if he's THAT bad. But it's already too late based on his value diminuish minute after minute because not only teams will be afraid of his demands and his attidue but because teams will know that the Habs might have another "Patrick Roy" in their hands, meaning that they won't have a choice to trade him.

We're about to have another Halak-Price problem but it's even worst 'cause this time.....there's no Price. Subban is alone in his skillset THROUGHOUT the actual team AND the prospect pool.
I don't think it's his loudness that bothers the team, but the idea that he is a selfish guy on and out of the ice. The leadership on this team is good, and clearly they allow PK to be himself, nonetheless, people after people admit that PK is at times a problem in the room.

This matters, we don't know all the details, but I can't see how PK isn't hurting himself here. AGAIN, I am not saying he can't try to make as much money as wants, but there is an idea of fairness, a bridge contract wouldn't be unfair for PK, but what PK may be asking for may very likely be unfair for Bergevin and the team.

Pk needs to be careful, the fans could turn on a player quickly here, you never know, Chucky could steal the spotlight, we could win some games, and we know that PK isn't the darling of the Montreal Media right now while Bergevin is very much liked for now, this could turn pretty bad for PK.

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01-19-2013, 11:11 AM
  #790
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That's true. I guess you agree they rewarded Gorges with a nice contract for coming back strong.
Sure, I'm merely pointing out that if Gorges did indeed go with the "I had to take a one year deal so PK should too" line of thinking, that he's offbase given that the situations are not that comparable.

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01-19-2013, 11:11 AM
  #791
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Well then, they can enjoy not having the P.K. distractions while playing on the worst or 2nd worst team in the East. Which is what this team is without Subban.
It remains to be seen how good this team is with/without Subban this year. Sounds like both sides are willing to wait to see the Habs for at least a few games without him before they make their next moves.

I think that Bergevin is going to hold his ground and hold out for a short term (2-3 year) deal. It doesn't sound to me like the Habs are going all in this year, so not having PK isn't killing their Cup aspirations or anything, unlike Doughty in LA with his contract. If PK is signed to a long term, big money deal, its basically telling all our young players that if you have two good years, you get that deal, which I don't think is the best idea.

There's a reason that the CBA has 7 RFA years before a player becomes a UFA. The team is supposed to have more leverage in determining contracts while their players are still young because they are supposedly unproven. At UFA, that leverage switches to the player. Right now, PK still has 4 RFA years left, so I don't see why Habs management needs to let him have exactly what he wants right now. He should be a big boy, sign for 2-3 years at a good price ($3.5-4 million, not chump change), show how much he's really worth, then (hopefully) cash in for his next contract a la Price. That would show the confidence he has in his own ability to prove his worth, and a commitment to the organization, team, and city that he apparently loves.

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01-19-2013, 11:14 AM
  #792
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Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
Gorges ain't the most intelligent of the bunch as evidenced by his comments during the CBA. He's a trooper and all that, but not much brain power there. This doesn't surprise me in the least.

Also, this whole "paying his dues" crap makes zero sense to me. Some players are exceptional and should be treated exceptionally. Gorges say 95% of player have to go through that, and yes that's true. It's because 95% of players haven't played as well as Subban once their ELC ended. Price didn't, Pacioretty didn't, Gorges sure as **** didn't either. And in general, teams who have such players jump at the chance to sign them to long term deals out of their ELC if the players also happen to want a long term deal. But now Bergevin has painted himself in a corner like an idiot. Gawd.

If I were PK, I'd sign whatever bridge contract they want me to sign. Then once that bridge contract is over, I'd ask for a 1-2 year deal to get to UFA and then leave this terrible franchise behind and pick a team that cares about winning more than proving points.



This.
Yes, because you know enough of Bergevin and the rest of the team to learn that they don't want to win right? The ame people who are whining about Bergevin not giving into Subban's wishes are the same people who will whine about how much he overpaid Subban if he doesn't play up to par.

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01-19-2013, 11:15 AM
  #793
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Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
Gorges ain't the most intelligent of the bunch as evidenced by his comments during the CBA. He's a trooper and all that, but not much brain power there. This doesn't surprise me in the least.

Also, this whole "paying his dues" crap makes zero sense to me. Some players are exceptional and should be treated exceptionally. Gorges say 95% of player have to go through that, and yes that's true. It's because 95% of players haven't played as well as Subban once their ELC ended. Price didn't, Pacioretty didn't, Gorges sure as **** didn't either. And in general, teams who have such players jump at the chance to sign them to long term deals out of their ELC if the players also happen to want a long term deal. But now Bergevin has painted himself in a corner like an idiot. Gawd.

If I were PK, I'd sign whatever bridge contract they want me to sign. Then once that bridge contract is over, I'd ask for a 1-2 year deal to get to UFA and then leave this terrible franchise behind and pick a team that cares about winning more than proving points.



This.
PK played like **** for half the season last year. Dont get me wrong I love PK but hes going to triple his salary the next two years. Just shut your mouth and play already.

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01-19-2013, 11:16 AM
  #794
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Gorges ain't the most intelligent of the bunch as evidenced by his comments during the CBA. He's a trooper and all that, but not much brain power there. This doesn't surprise me in the least.
Gorges is like the stereotypical old time hockey "character" player. Western Canadian country boy with all heart and little brains, plays beyond his abilities and his willing to take one for the team. Has no real personality beyond that.

It's great having guys like that around but chasing away everyone who dares have their own personality until there's only simple country boys left is a great way to stay mediocre.

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01-19-2013, 11:19 AM
  #795
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Pk needs to be careful, the fans could turn on a player quickly here, you never know, Chucky could steal the spotlight, we could win some games, and we know that PK isn't the darling of the Montreal Media right now while Bergevin is very much liked for now, this could turn pretty bad for PK.
Not going to happen till he signs. People will be louder for PK. Then, if PK signs that big contract and doesn't perform, true that they will be on his case. But we're not there yet.

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01-19-2013, 11:20 AM
  #796
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Not going to happen till he signs. People will be louder for PK. Then, if PK signs that big contract and doesn't perform, true that they will be on his case. But we're not there yet.
I think it depends what happens without him.

If the defense ****s the bed, there will be chants for PK, and Bergevin is going to make himself look very foolish. I hope he has is "No Excuses" sign to remind him.

Gorges better bring his A game tonight.

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01-19-2013, 11:21 AM
  #797
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It boggles my mind that people do not understand what Bergevin is trying to do here. From the team's standpoint, not the fanboy standpoint, he's doing the wise thing. CLEARLY, I wish this mess was all over so we could see PK in action tonight.

But think about it here, who's looking out for the team's best interest? Clearly and understandably, PK isn't, Pk is looking out for the best interest of PK, and he has the right to do so, it's not wrong.

But in the same way, Bergevin is looking out for the best interest of the team, that's what he is being paid for. When he bought out Gomez, he wasn't putting Gomez's interests over the team's. Why in the world do we want him to hurt the team now for Pk's sake? Clearly, if he hasn't signed PK yet, it's because he believes that the contract would hurt the team. Since we don't know all the details, isn't it wise to understand where is he coming from?

For PK, like I said, I understand where he is coming from too. HOWEVER, I can understand how a long term contract could hurt the team, but I cannot understand how a short term contract would hurt PK. It clearly didn't hurt Price and Pax, why can't he understand that, that would be fair? That is why I'm disappointed in PK.

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01-19-2013, 11:23 AM
  #798
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So it’s official: no Subban tonight.

In the context of a 48 games sprint to the playoffs, where each game are huge, if Subban decides to stay at home for x weeks instead of signing a 2 years deal worth 8M$ (or, in last resort, a one year deal worth 4,5M$), fans and teammates will be annoyed.

The question here is: “Is Subban willing to make a little sacrifice (à la Pacioretty, Brodeur, Hossa...) to play for a contender?”.


EDIT:

I just noticed your post and I agree with you completely BlackStar!

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01-19-2013, 11:30 AM
  #799
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Another great post Whitesnake, you stealin' the words out of my mouth.

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Your point makes no sense based on what we're seeing now. So the non-signing happens because they can't live with the guy? And what if he signs? They will then be able to live with him? If true that he's such a pain in the ass, trade him. But trade him in a way that you will get the greatest return for him.
This is a point I've been wanting to bring up. If that is indeed the case that he is literrally the antichrist in the locker room then the players should shut the F up about it. They shouldn't say a thing to the medias. It speaks of THEIR character that they're badmouthing a teammate. I'm honestly worried that a guy as dumb as Gorges is now such a vocal speaker. How does he have the guts to badmouth a teammate in the medias and speak of taking one for the team ? More idiocy from Gorges.

Quote:
Yet, while he might not be the easiest guy to live with it, I have way more problems with the leadership of this team if it's indeed true. I know a couple of vets in this league that would shut PK up and knock him out if needed so he'd quiet down. In here, they just dislike the way he conducts himself, well show him how it has to be done.
You know what, it was just fine when PK was with Henry and Boucher in Hamilton.

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And you had a lot of examples of that this week. When you heard our vets talking about how great Galchenyuk was but mostly his ATTITUDE. The fact that he was focuses, DIDN'T TAKE ALL THE PLACE, WAS QUIET and so on...Geez, we don't need solely choir boys in a locker room. If the guy talks loud and show off more, if he ends up winning you games, man up and accept it. But what would this locker room want? A quieter locker room in a losing fashion?
More and more i get the impression that this is a matter of old farts being annoyed that a guy shows color and flash. That he has been a fan favorite early on. That he is getting endorsement deals and they aren't. That he might be talking too much in the locker room. I think that's just envy and a bunch of sour puss who need to get over themselves. Boring guys like Gionta, Gorges who have to do 200% of the work PK do to be able to stay in the league. I am not impressed by their attitude in the least.

Quote:
Again, trade him if he's THAT bad. But it's already too late based on his value diminuish minute after minute because not only teams will be afraid of his demands and his attidue but because teams will know that the Habs might have another "Patrick Roy" in their hands, meaning that they won't have a choice to trade him.
Exactly. I speculate that I believe the problem is probably not PK himself but if it is. If it is really his fault and he does really dumb **** all the time and won't understand reason... then.. ok players should shut the hell up, the GM should not create waves like this and ink the guy long term... and look for a way to unload him when his value is at its peak.

We always do that in Mtl. Always. I don't understand it. The team drives the value of the player down until they give him away (Roy, Ribeiro, Chelios, Carbonneau). I don't get it.

Quote:
We're about to have another Halak-Price problem but it's even worst 'cause this time.....there's no Price. Subban is alone in his skillset THROUGHOUT the actual team AND the prospect pool.
It's maddening.

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Old
01-19-2013, 11:31 AM
  #800
E = CH²
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kjell Dahlin View Post
So it’s official: no Subban tonight.

In the context of a 48 games sprint to the playoffs, where each game are huge, if Subban decides to stay at home for x weeks instead of signing a 2 years deal worth 8M$ (or, in last resort, a one year deal worth 4,5M$), fans and teammates will be annoyed.

The question here is: “Is Subban willing to make a little sacrifice (à la Pacioretty, Brodeur, Hossa...) to play for a contender?”.


EDIT:

I just noticed your post and I agree with you completely BlackStar!
False premise on your part.

We have no idea what the numbers are. We know that Bergevin wants a short deal and PK wants a long term deal. That is ALL we know.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackStar View Post
It boggles my mind that people do not understand what Bergevin is trying to do here. From the team's standpoint, not the fanboy standpoint, he's doing the wise thing. CLEARLY, I wish this mess was all over so we could see PK in action tonight.

But think about it here, who's looking out for the team's best interest? Clearly and understandably, PK isn't, Pk is looking out for the best interest of PK, and he has the right to do so, it's not wrong.

But in the same way, Bergevin is looking out for the best interest of the team, that's what he is being paid for. When he bought out Gomez, he wasn't putting Gomez's interests over the team's. Why in the world do we want him to hurt the team now for Pk's sake? Clearly, if he hasn't signed PK yet, it's because he believes that the contract would hurt the team. Since we don't know all the details, isn't it wise to understand where is he coming from?

For PK, like I said, I understand where he is coming from too. HOWEVER, I can understand how a long term contract could hurt the team, but I cannot understand how a short term contract would hurt PK. It clearly didn't hurt Price and Pax, why can't he understand that, that would be fair? That is why I'm disappointed in PK.
Except is insisting on a bridge contract the right thing to do for the team ? I don't think so myself.

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